The Big Picture: Gender Games

[Therumancer]

I don't think about this very much because I by and large agree with the 'feminist' viewpoint, and I am personally offended that devs think I'll look into/buy/enjoy their game more because there is a girl with big boobs in them. But this is a very nice look into the underlying mechanisms of the thing.

I realize that every time an almost normal girl (or just competent in combat girl) shows up as an important character in a game, even if she's not drop dead-gorgeous, she has to have some feature that's über hot, usually a gigantic rack. Like Elizabeth in the upcoming Bioshock Infinite, or the bodyguard lady in Dead Island. I think this shows some people are trying to change this and some people are pushing not to.

I'll also add that Ivy is probably one of the girls who gets a pass on this stuff, since she also uses her sexuality as a weapon - which is why one of her alterative outfits is usually some sort of military uniform that shows nothing but her head, as if she was saying 'I can beat you by distracting you with my boobies, but I don't need to. It's just more fun this way.' The rest of the SC roster is guilty though.

Also when you showed Bowser's second pose I was sure you were going to say it communicates U GONNA GET RAPED.

lotsa stuff

No. There is a difference. Look at the roster of any random fighting game.

There will be a lot of fine looking man with muscular arms and big biceps and revealing clothing.

There will be a lot of fine looking women with big boobs and huge legs and revealing clothes.

There will be a bunch of weird looking man who are mutated or on fire or skeletons or maybe just fat, depending on the setting.

And there might be a robot.

See the problem?

Just about ALL characters wind up with some feature that would be considered attractive though, that includes the male ones. In general heroic games feature characters who represent a heroic ideal. In general you don't see a lot of normal looking guys involved in heroic fantasy of any time, and in games like fighting games where the fantasy revolves around world class fighters, your not going to generally see a bunch of normal looking people.

As I pointed out, the more varied look of male characters is because men are more physically variable at the high end, we can put on and develop muscle mass a lot more efficiently and in all kinds of shapes. Women tend not to have as many options, there is a limit to how far a girl can really "bulk up". This is why men max out much higher in terms of physical capabilities, and also why feminists complain about a lot of jobs having requirements that are very difficult, if not imposisble, for women to meet in certain jobs.

A dude can be a wiry whip of muscle, or some hulking mountain and be viable and show improvement from it. Beyond a certain point women are not going to be able to put on any bulk and muscle and have it actually be an advantage. Women who reach an idea "fighting weight" tend to come out looking a lot more similar than guys do, not identical, but within certain dimensions. This is why you don't have any lady pro-wrestlers built like "Hulk Hogan" or whatever, women just can't develop themselves that way. Even female body builders wind up
in a totally differant catagory from men, and are judged by differant merits.

This is to say nothing of the simple fact that women who do fantasy artwork wind up producing the same basic stuff... a physical ideal, as men do.

When it comes to what's attractive, I will also say that guys are generally putting their best features out first for the cheesecake factor. You look at something like the cover art for "Resident Evil 5" and the sheer size of the bicep Chris is flexing and it's pretty over the top, this being in exactly the same vein as those "magical wolfboys" people make fun of in Twilight.

See, the problem is that this issue exists in the mind of feminists (and for a lot of them probably only as a political point), and guys that think that by taking a position like this it will make them more likable to girls. Overall we just don't pay attention because society has not made "oh my gawd, look at the exploitation of men" a viable attention getting/political strategy.


Finally, for those that made it this far through my post, the mosrt important point:

If you stop and think about it there are just as many "exploitive" images of guys out there, it's just that are invisible on the political spectrum. These images ARE directed heavily at women, who are just as swayed physically as guys are whether they want to admit it or not. The career of guys like Fabio or Justin Beiber should make this pretty obvious for those who have been paying attention. If you bother to look at the statistics about gaming there are TONS of women gamers out there, and that's hardly something that has happened by accident. A lot of women might not admit that they bought a product because it's got a picture of some strapping male sex god plastered on it, no more than most guys will admit artwork with attractive women helps their tales, but it remains true.

One funny thing I've mentioned before is that for all the mockery of Duke Nukem and how offensive he is towards women, and so on and so forth, that character does seem to be pretty popular WITH women. I've run into TONS of girls who have played that game, even if many claim "well I just borrowed it" and seen far less of them go out of their way to knock it than guys. To be honest Duke is by all accounts the perfect man for your average girl, he's got the big muscles, the chipped good looks, and the macho attitude. While he's an egomaniac he stands up for his women. To your typical nerdboy who worships movies about how the intellectual, sensitive guy, gets the girl by demonstrating how much better he is for the girl in question than the macho jerks she usually dates, it's kind of crushing to see it come into gaming that this is the kind of guy girls REALLY tend to go for. I don't think that many nerds really get that their macho-empowerment fantasy space marine characters and such are the kinds of dudes that are the opposite of what the players are in real life, and arguably fit the mould of those skimpily dressed babes for the women. That dude showing off a huge bicep with muscle definition that would only pop out with at least a gallon of professionally applied body oil? Yeah... that's not really aimed at the dudes. Just like not all men like girls with massive boobs, not all girls like guys that are buffed out into uber-musclemen, but we have other examples as well. There are plenty of pretty-boys out there in gaming like say... Sepiroth... he's not just enduringly popular because he was an epic villain, but because he's sort of a sex symbol to women. Don't believe me? Login to Encyclopedia Dramatica and look up people like "Sepiroth's Slave" (if they still have the page) and so on for some pretty extreme examples, and then understand that this is simply the lunatic fringe of a kind of fanbase most guys have never noticed because they don't really notice the sex appeal of their own gender since it's not aimed at them.

Seriously, consider the above. There isn't an issue here. The issue only exists due to politics and people wanting to make one. Honestly I also suspect that a lot of the problem has to do with the whole "Scott Pilgrim" generation of male nerds being convinced that the gender dynamitcs there are anything other than an empowerment fantasy. They sit there and wonder "why aren't these gamer girls interested in me" and use the artwork and such as a scapegoat, when in really the simple truth is that when it comes to fun girls really don't
go for nerds which are called nerds for a reason. It can be shattering to realize it, and the very same empowerment fantasies present in games tend to cause a lot of guys not to notice that their video game protaganist is the guy who would be kicking sand in their face and walking off with the girl, and that guy is helping to bring the girls that are in the audience into gaming. Girls being just as shallow in their own way as guys are in theirs. A nice rack has sold tons of products to guys, just as Fabio's hair blowing in the wind has sold tankers full of substitute butter to housewives... and well, the amount of money made by Justin Beiber (away from the muscle-dude stereotype) from not only music but merch with his image on it, says a lot as well. Girls aren't flocking to The Beeb because of his musical talent, the posters being hawked at Wallmart with him standing there in a hoodie with hearts all around him (or something similar) kind of says it all.

 

[LazyAza]

Clearly the answer too all this is more pretty male characters doing absolutely nothing but wearing slivers of cloth and posing. I'm sure my sister would approve of this lol.

 

[Metalrocks]

nice episode. agree with him strongly. i always ask my self why they always have to make the women look like sexy looking toys. sure, i do like nice looking women, i sure dont deny that but i sure dislike extremely attractive looking women in games who wear skin tide suits or very revealing dresses in fights no normal woman would wear.

i guess you guys have seen the resident evil trailer for the 3DS, were this girl pretty much has her suit open that her breasts almost fall out and the suit is skin tide. now thats something a game really doesnt need. resident evil is now really going in to this direction that women look so damn attractive and the men all look like muscular fridges with a tennis ball on top. i mean, seriously, look at ada wong. who the hell runs around like this. or sheva, so damn attractive looking with pretty much the perfect body.

and there is lara croft. always huge breasts. ok, she looked a bit better in underworld and legend, but still very big.
now the new lara looks at least realistic and not made to look sexy as in the previous games. if they really stick to what they say, that you have to fight for survival, then this lara could be seen as a believable character. so lets see what will come out of the new tomb raider.

rayne from bloodrayne is hot, yes, i admit it. but they can cut down the size of her breasts though. the game as such is now really over the top gory and unbelievable that you can more or less accept such a attractive looking woman.
yes, mortal combat, tekken etc, are also over the top games you cant take seriously but all the women in there have huge breasts and are all attractive looking.


the only female game characters i actually like are alyx from half life and femshep from mass effect. they all look nice and have a personality you can actually believe and compare with in real life.
alyx as a freedom fighter. is also intelligent and her body at least isnt shown off. she is dressed believably for the situation she is in. also her behavior and attitude makes her more real that you can say, thats a woman i can hang out with.

with femshep its pretty much the same. she is not posed as a sex symbol but still attractive looking. not like miranda, she is for sure made to look that way but at least she has also a personality you can resemble with.

 

[Snake Plissken]

Hey guys,

It's me, video games. Remember when I was fun? Remember how much fun we had together before everyone started talking about how racist, sexist, or homophobic everyone seems to think I am?
Remember those times that you just enjoyed me for what I was, rather than over analyzing me as a form of art or a new media or whatever it is you kids are calling me these days? Where did those times go? If you'd ever like to have those days back, let me know. I'm sure dying for some regular escapist fun. No need for lengthy discussion. Let's not talk. Let just shoot some grubs. We can fly around in the Normandy together. We could build things out of blocks. We could even rescue the princess together. Whatever you want; I don't much care. Let's just go back to having fun, huh?

I miss you,
VGs

 

[SlugLady28]

Great job Bob! Oh, but may I suggest one more thing women hate about how certain females are protrayed in media:

"Boobs don't work that way!"

 

[ShadowsofHope]

I think what game developers fail to realize is that they can have female characters who are incredibly hot without showing off their curves all the time.
Like Kat in Halo: Reach, or more simply the female SPARTAN model. It doesn't contain any less armor than the male version does(except the smaller codpiece, for obvious reasons), and yet many gamers could probably still jerk off to it, if they were that kind of person. What I'm trying to say, though, is that it works both ways. I'm sure there are some people out there, possibly women, who find the male SPARTANs attractive, and are similarly enthralled by the shape of their butts. However, no one is angry about this, because no one feels like they're watching some weird space pornography. They're simply enjoying seeing what some would consider idealized human forms in armor that is both functional and badass.

Or maybe make a female character that you don't want to fuck? Just a thought. Maybe have an actual person who happens to be female, and not an object of sexual desire?

That is pretty much an impossible task at base, for both men and women in video games, due to the fact that sexual interest is a very varied concept amongst video gamers and human beings in general - you'll never not have a character in a movie, game or book that isn't an object of sexual desire to someone in the world. Regardless of intention to actually make them sexually appealing or not.

OT: While I tend to agree with most of what Movie Bob has mentioned in this video, I do still consider that the video game industry is only going to get more balanced once both male and female characters in video games have been taken down a notch or two in fantasy idealism. However, that still leaves the issue that most play video games for the reasoning of putting yourself in the shoes of an idealized, "perfect" human being that you will never likely be yourself, as well.

 

[Kristina.K.]

As a well-endowed woman, I understand the visual appeal of posing to flaunt the assets.
I think the concept is over-used in most forms of media (not just video games, but let's face it: the girls in video games are designed to have certain measurements). I think that the skimpy outfit concern is silly -I find some of the outfits to be cute and relevant to the character (ie: the bat tights on Morrigan). Over the years, I have gotten used to the fact that there will always be women with abnormally large knockers in video games, though it is painful to see a character with that as their main selling point.

Yeah, she may have something sweet in the A department too, but why should I feel compelled to care about this character? What does Ivy's outfit tell me about her? Nothing. It just tells me that designers wanted to play up assets to appease the target market of the male gender. They do not expect too many female gamers to pick up Soul Calibur.

I do not think that the posing is a majority of the problem. I'm nearly willing to let that go because there will be plenty of fan art to supplement the provocative depictions of the characters which the company may not produce. It would be a welcome change, though I know that it isn't likely to happen.

My only request is that developers take the time to flesh out their females (no pun intended). Is she from a different culture? Why not integrate a piece of popular or historical fashion from that culture (ex: Tekken 5 Asuka's geisha-esque garb -which, may I say, is very sexy)? It is one of the many ways they can make their own characters seem like more than something fun to watch in movement. If you think about it, they do that more often than not with a majority of over-muscled men in video games. Convey the character, not the sex. Add the sex appeal as a spice. No one will turn down a small amount of sex appeal -so why try to outshine the porn stars?

 

[Zetsubou^-^]

the biggest problem i have with feminism and civil rights movements in general is: its never enough. (hold flame while i make my point.)

equality is all well and good, but telling men to give up oversexed females while females ogle twilight characters (bob's example) is not equivalent.
you could make the same point with scholarships based on sex/race,
words one race/gender can use while another can't,
or that stupid rule about not hitting girls even in retaliation.(I've heard many a girl tout this right after hitting a guy)
there are many other cases i could point to, but I'll stop at that.

if you really wanted equivalency, ask for more oversexed guys to balance it out. why does it have to be something negative like making us drop things? equivalency does not have to mean bringing everyone down, and by definition can't be giving the lesser more than the other has. any movement that screams for equivalency while taking perks the other won't get is flawed from the start.

 

[Avistew]

Now, I will also say that there is also a bit less practical diversity in women for the kinds of games presented, because there is some relevency to this in real life. If you look at female dancers and martial artists and such you'll notice they all tend to wind up with the same, or very similar builds. In comparison guys, who are designed differantly for physical activity, can be greatly more varied in the way they develop.

I disagree with you. Women have just as much variety in how their bodies develop depending on which activities they perform and which muscle groups they focus on, as well as variety in their body type to begin with.

Spoiler

You can see that just like a male sumo wrestler has a different build from, say, a fencer, because he uses different kinds of muscles, females who practice sports such as hammer throw or weightlifting develop their muscles differently than those who, say, are dancers.

The only thing that seems to be constant in the lineups is the small size of their breasts comparatively, because breasts are made of fat, and the more muscle you get, the less fat you have.

You also don't see as many older female characters in fighting games, they tend to all be in their 20s, while males have a much broader age range.

 

[VioletHorizon]

I really like the detail about character poses. Great insight.

 

[Draconalis]

So... I have spent most of this morning watching Suikoden openings, and when I remember Nanami and much of this debate.

I know it's one series fighting a tidal wave, but the Suikoden series had a lot female characters that weren't over sexed models, and many of them were very deep and troubled characters.

Part of the reason I rank Suikoden I & II as my all time favorite games to date.

 

[Toriver]

Allow me to present the argument I made when discussing this issue with comic books a while back, dealing with the "Men are sexualized too!" excu- I mean, "argument". It fits just as well with video games.

While I disagree with the OP's suggestion that sexualization = powerlessness, let's not kid ourselves, guys. We can say all we want that there are plenty of women in comics who are not usually sexualized (Wonder Woman, Invisible Woman and Storm come to mind), but pretty much every female superhero out there has been played for sex appeal at some time or another. And enough with that B.S. about men in comics having muscles of steel as sexualization for the ladies. You and I know that's just a cheap cop-out argument with little basis in reality. Women don't go see Superman movies to fantasize about him carrying them away to the Fortress of Solitude. Nor do they watch Die Hard to drool over John McClane. As others have mentioned, characters like Edward Cullen or even freaking Harry Potter have exponentially more drooling, obsessed fangirls than any superhero. Comic books (or at least superhero comics) have for a very long time been almost exclusively been a man's medium, made by men for men, so it stands to reason that the images within superhero comics, both male and female, would be made to appeal to men. The well-muscled men of comics are not a woman's ideal of a man, but a man's view of the ideal man: the man we men want to be, not necessarily the man women want. This applies to countless action heroes in movies and games as well: Conan the Barbarian, Rocky, Rambo, the Terminator, anything Steven Seagal, Vin Diesel or van Damme have ever done, Marcus Fenix, Duke Nukem (to parodic effect), Nathan Drake, Kratos, the list goes on. That's the effect they're all going for: our own gender's fantasy about our own body image. It's the image we men have built for ourselves as the ideal. And because sight is naturally much more of a primary sense for men when it comes to sex (compared to smell and touch for women), our view of a good-looking woman is a much bigger part of women's body image than the reverse. As a straight man, I will admit that men tend to be a lot more picky about what we consider an attractive-looking woman than women are for us, and that has a big part to play in what the female ideal is in the eyes of both men and women. So I just don't see how that "sexualized man" argument holds any weight in the terms of the men in action films and comic books. Sure, men are sexualized, but you can't really claim that it's in those media that they are. Superman and Batman are not, nor have they ever been, considered really "sexy" characters. The one real example of overt male sexualization I can offer in action/comic media is James Bond. Heck, I'm straight as an arrow and I'D let Bond have his way with me. But other than that, you have to look at media designed primarily for women to really see male sexualization: rom-coms, soap operas and the like. That's where the sexually appealing guys to women are. And the same logic applies: along with the handsome guys are the women that women want to be like. It's just the different ideals and interests that thousands of years of assigned gender roles have implanted in us. Whether it's nature or nurture, I really don't care.

 

[Lerasai]

I'm just tired of this argument. People always seem to respond with, "Well, there are more men buying video games than women", but that doesn't excuse anything. 1) There are a lot more women buying video games than you think and 2) Why does "We have a lot of male consumers." have to translate to "SLUT UP ALL THE LADIES IMMEDIATELY!"?

And it isn't just that the ladies are slutty, its that the dudes aren't. If it really was a matter of marketing, wouldn't they want to get all their bases covered? I mean, if they made the guys just as appealing to women as they did the women for men then by their logic they would attract female consumers. If women can get passed all the sexualized chicks then guys can get passed the sexualized dudes. Unless, of course, that there's some other reason they like to put scantily clad women in sexy poses in their games.

By the way, before you argue that this kind of marketing isn't effective on women, remember that Jrpgs are very popular with women (particularly those that are in their teenage years, seeing some parallels?). Jrpgs tend to actually have attractive men in them. You know, the ones who aren't grimacing and bulging with muscles? The ones that guys complain are basically walking unrealistic girly stereotypes of what women like? Seeing more parallels?

And if you say that Jrpgs are popular with women because they're normally less violent than games with real-time combat and gore I will literally punch you in the face... and by literally I mean I will imagine doing it and take great pleasure in imagining that it causes you great pain and blood loss.

Agh, I told myself I wouldn't get into this sort of conversation again! I always feel like a whiny brat when I do. I love video games and I don't think every developer and male gamer is a sexist pig. I just want to be able to play a game and feel like I'm the intended audience. It's something men take for granted and all of you with penises should take a moment to appreciate it.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

snip

Welcome to shades of gray, it's what the real world is made of

Except Other M really isn't a shade of gray. It's a steroetype who is packaged as a 'real human being'

Whatever helps ya sleep at night

 

[Vault101]

thankfully most of the games Ive played I havnt really come across the over sexualistion on rediculous levels show in the video (I mena outfits and stuff)

however there are issues and im glad bob adressed them

 

[ThunderCavalier]

Wow. I honestly hadn't noticed this until now.

Thanks a lot, MovieBob, though in all seriousness, though, I highly doubt the Internets can put aside their stupid, non-sensical arguments, bias, and elitism to actually do something productive. If they can, though, I'd really enjoy this, especially as an avid supporter of stronger female protagonists (or, frankly, more female protagonists in particular that aren't... well... obvious eye-candy).

 

[awesomeClaw]

I do hope you do a video on the stupidity of the super model complex in gaming. It's so out of hand except by a very small handful of studios that understand woman can still be strong and attractive without having to be 'classically' beautiful. (I'm looking right at Valve for this one.) What makes it worse, in the example of Alyx, is that she's a strong but down to Earth looking heroine, and idiots go and do shit like this: http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/504/halflife22.jpg
Yup, that's what Alyx needed. A face of a super model, bigger tits with jiggle bones, and more navel showing. And you wonder why women tend to assume men are all misogynist idiots.

¨

I agree with the "does not have to be classically beautiful" part, but I object to your complaint about a design of Alyx that was clearly done not for the *actual* game(If it is for the actual game, which I doubt, please disregard this and firebomb Valve for me.) rather done for perhaps a mod, or a masturbation session.

It´s perfectly acceptable to take a character out of context and give her traits you find attractive and then giving out to people for them to jerk off to. If Valve tried to pull this, then it´d be stupid, but as it stands, it´s merely a diffrent take on her design, possibly by someone who appreciates the "Classically beautiful" style.

And your last comment was just meanspirited and unneccesary.

Anyways: Good episode, Bob. I agree with you on almost everything. We need not get rid of beauty - merely the way it is presented.