The Big Picture: Maddening
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So it's only about the animals? The intentions don't seperate the two things? Perhaps it's questionable to happily ignore what happens before meat lands on our plates, but it's not hypocritical to be offended when pleasure is taken in cruelty.probunk said:
That's really the key to the moral-indignation here... A man got his jollies watching mentally abused dogs rip eachother apart. The mind-set matters, alot...
Will maybe one of the reasons people are voting for him is because of the Madden Curse. I mean seriously with all the injuries that occur because of being on the cover, would you really vote for a player you actually like?
Maybe he's so hi in numbers is because people want to give him the curse.
Course the media is stupid. The comedians never leave a wrongdoer alone, but most of the people forget it. I mean look at past criminals who were left alone after a point and even considered saints.
Maybe he's so hi in numbers is because people want to give him the curse.
Course the media is stupid. The comedians never leave a wrongdoer alone, but most of the people forget it. I mean look at past criminals who were left alone after a point and even considered saints.
There is a difference between killing animals for food or just plainly killing them for nothing. Slaughterhouses are bad, but in the end, those animals are not killed in vain; they will feed people, and food is essential for survival (yes, they could eat other food, but that's beside the point right now and people will always eat meat, the only thing that will change is our treatment of the said meat (and just a note; I'm a vegetarian)). Killing animals for your own amusement is far far worse because those animals die for nothing and are tortured for nothing. I mean, seriously, there are a million ways to have fun in our time and age, and they have to get their kicks from watching helpless animals kill each other for money? Yes, it can be forgiven, but I would never look at that person the same way again. Much like I wouldn't look a child rapist the same way, no matter how many years he served in prison or how sorry he was.probunk said:
And yes, there are worse things, but that's not the excuse. It's like classifying any crime that isn't the Holocaust as "It's not the worse thing that can happen, remember the Holocaust?". A rapist? Well, at least he's not a child rapist, so that's fine. A murderer? Well, at least he didn't set fire to a child hospital, so that's fine. He forced dogs to fight and die for the lulz? Well, at least he's not a serial killer. We could find the "at least he's not " for any crime in existence, but that is not the reason not to condemn someone for committing it. I understand that dog fighting is not really the worse thing in the universe, but it is still a crime and it is still awful and it still needs to be punished. He did serve the time in prison, he apologized, and he deserves a second chance (which he has, as far as I understand), but that doesn't mean that he's now completely clean and we should just get over it. If we are striving to eradicate shit like dog fights from our society, the society needs to know the weight of the crime. Saying "it's only dogs fighting" makes it look like it's generally okay, but just slightly naughty. But it's worse than that; it's barbaric, disgusting and completely below human intelligence and our evolution as species that understand the concepts of morality and ethics.
I think Bob was a bit too harsh on this though (given the fact that I am completely oblivious to sports or people connected to sports, so I don't really have an attachment to something with a bad name), and I believe his harshness will go down with time, but I completely understand and respect his opinion. Hell, if someone from media that I actually follow was involved in something like this, I would probably be a hundred times more pissed.
I really don't see the point of this whining, dogs have always been "tortured" and "killed" for human purposes ever since they co-operated with us. Dogs for decades have been used for sledging, hunting and entertainment.
Although I do not agree with the reason why he did it but the death of the dogs have no major importance and will not have any major impact on anything. He got punished and he got shamed, anything more would be vigilantism. 'Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster.'
Although I do not agree with the reason why he did it but the death of the dogs have no major importance and will not have any major impact on anything. He got punished and he got shamed, anything more would be vigilantism. 'Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster.'
I know this may seem like I've completely missed the point but to me it just looks like EA is keeping this guy in the running because of exactly what's happening here.
People are talking about this Vick guy and also Madden, due to him being on the cover. Just looks like a really low form of marketing.
It seems to me to be the exact same situation as Medal of Honour and the Opposing forces controversy.
(Although I do have to question whether EA would keep this guy on the cover knowing what sort of reputation he could have, for the sake of some extra money)
People are talking about this Vick guy and also Madden, due to him being on the cover. Just looks like a really low form of marketing.
It seems to me to be the exact same situation as Medal of Honour and the Opposing forces controversy.
(Although I do have to question whether EA would keep this guy on the cover knowing what sort of reputation he could have, for the sake of some extra money)
Losing to the Seahawks in the playoffs is pretty harsh. I'd figure not make it all and save myself the embarrassment of losing to a team that doesn't even belong there.SilverUchiha said:
Actually I consider it to be a difference between eating meat and torturing animals, and that is because you are using what you killed. Hunting to me is okay when you actually use as much of the catch as possible. Animal fighting of any kind, is cruel and unusual because it will probably live and be tortured for long with no real benefit except for mindless entertainment. One can even arguing that animal testing has some arguement when they are being tested for things that will actually be needed and can help the world, not make up or recreational purposes.probunk said:
And As a meat eater, I always make sure to eat animal products that come from places where the animals are treated more fairly.
In the end yeah the fact that we kill them is cruel, but other animals are eating them too and technically you are killing and hurting a plant when you eat or cut off limbs of them so In my book, make it painless, make it quick, and treat them as far as you can. Animal fighting isn't any of those things.
I buy madden every year and have voted against Vick in every round of this vote so far. what a douche
You can't implicate Vick alone in wrong-doing, unless you understand and implicate the culture he comes from that demands he continue to act like a poverty stricken thug where dogfighting is an accepted form of entertainment even though he has the money and opportunity to behave like any reasonable member of society, because if he didn't, he would appear to be a an "uncle tom" or a "race betrayer".
Young black men, and especially black men who are fortunate to be well-off are one of the only races that are forced, by their own race even, to be torn between being a well mannered, well dressed, well adjusted person like anyone else and the idea that black men need to be tough guys that act like the worst off individuals in the poorest areas simply because of their color.
Kids in a lot of schools say anyone who does well in classes and doesn't adhere to a particular color's popular culture stereotypes is "acting white", which is what angry impoverished young men do to rich athletes and especially successfull black career men; making them feel guilty for their success and saying they're betraying their race if they don't look and act/talk like some street thug, which is what Vick almost certainly fell to. Any non-white guy who's dated a white woman probably knows what I'm talking about (non-white women dating white men are treated worse but thats another argument)
I'm not making excuses for Vick at all, he deserves to be omitted from any honorable mention for what he did, but the root cause of the problem in most of these cases is how certain groups or cultures can pressure people in the most cruel of ways, and the root cause of that is the high percentage living in poverty which has causes of its own.
I'm not the only one who realizes this either, but singling out Vick alone for torturing animals like it's a small isolated problem is short-sighted.
Young black men, and especially black men who are fortunate to be well-off are one of the only races that are forced, by their own race even, to be torn between being a well mannered, well dressed, well adjusted person like anyone else and the idea that black men need to be tough guys that act like the worst off individuals in the poorest areas simply because of their color.
Kids in a lot of schools say anyone who does well in classes and doesn't adhere to a particular color's popular culture stereotypes is "acting white", which is what angry impoverished young men do to rich athletes and especially successfull black career men; making them feel guilty for their success and saying they're betraying their race if they don't look and act/talk like some street thug, which is what Vick almost certainly fell to. Any non-white guy who's dated a white woman probably knows what I'm talking about (non-white women dating white men are treated worse but thats another argument)
I'm not making excuses for Vick at all, he deserves to be omitted from any honorable mention for what he did, but the root cause of the problem in most of these cases is how certain groups or cultures can pressure people in the most cruel of ways, and the root cause of that is the high percentage living in poverty which has causes of its own.
I'm not the only one who realizes this either, but singling out Vick alone for torturing animals like it's a small isolated problem is short-sighted.
Wow. Did I ever mention I LOVE a good rant? Probably on my top 10 list somewhere.
Amazingly good points. I enjoy how you refute the possible arguments that people could make. I rarely see people do this anymore. Most just give their opinion and leave it at that.
Amazingly good points. I enjoy how you refute the possible arguments that people could make. I rarely see people do this anymore. Most just give their opinion and leave it at that.
You made a very good argument. You're entirely right, but in Bob's case I believe it's because he has to tie this in with "videogame"-ish culture. He can't just go off on a rant about everyone that was involved in the dog fights because he needs to make a focused argument. It wouldn't have hurt him to mention it though.Nurb said:You can't implicate Vick alone in wrong-doing, unless you understand and implicate the culture he comes from that demands he continue to act like a poverty stricken thug where dogfighting is an accepted form of entertainment even though he has the money and opportunity to behave like any reasonable member of society, because if he didn't, he would appear to be a an "uncle tom" or a "race betrayer".
Young black men, and especially black men who are fortunate to be well-off are one of the only races that are forced, by their own race even, to be torn between, being a well mannered, well dressed, well adjusted person like anyone else and the idea that black men need to be tough guys that act like the worst off individuals in the poorest areas simply because of their color.
Kids in a lot of schools say anyone who does well in classes and doesn't adhere to a particular color's popular culture stereotypes is "acting white", which is what angry impoverished young men do to rich athletes and especially successfull black career men; making them feel guilty for their success and saying they're betraying their race if they don't look and act/talk like some street thug, which is what Vick almost certainly fell to. Any non-white guy who's dated a white woman probably knows what I'm talking about (non-white women dating white men are treated worse but thats another argument)
I'm not making excuses for Vick at all, he deserves to be omitted from any honorable mention for what he did, but the root cause of the problem in most of these cases is how certain groups or cultures can pressure people in the most cruel of ways, and the root cause of that is the high percentage living in poverty which has causes of its own.
I'm not the only one who realizes this either, but singling out Vick alone for torturing animals like it's a small isolated problem is short-sighted.
In order of increasing importance:Velocirapture07 said:
1) Current research have conclusively shown that a large number of non-human animals are capable of complex emotions, reasoning abilities, and even language skills that where considered to be uniquely human. No, we are not on a different plan. We're just on a slightly different evolutionary branch.
2) My point about about blacks, Jews, Native Americans and women was about how humans can see themselves as being superior to other humans and can therefore justify horrific actions against them. The "dependant for survival" point was to show that, at least in infancy, humans are not that different from other animals, especially domesticated ones. Vick was taking advantage of something which he had complete control over.
3) No one is ignoring other NFL individuals who have committed crimes against humans. There are literally enough to make a team with, and I don't think any of them will make the cover of Madden. The thing with Vick isn't just his crime, but what it's a sign of. In addition to animal cruelty, Vick has a history of drug use, violence, and numerous other criminal offences. The fact that he hasn't killed a human yet is surprising. You say he's turned his life around, but I don't think he'll keep on track for much longer. It's not what he's done, it's what he'll do next. And given where this pattern of behaviour can lead to, it doesn't look good. It'll be OJ Simpson all over again. That's why we're focused on this one criminal.
There may be a Madden curse, but I wouldn't bet on it because the curse could backfire on those trying to put it on someone
I personally think he shouldn't be on the cover because there are plenty of BETTER players than Vick. It's sad that it's Rogers and Hillis fighting in the semi-finals rather than the finals, because BOTH had WAY betters seasons than Vick
Sure, you could argue that Hillis faltered off near the end of the season, but the entire Cleveland Browns team did, and they changed game plans. The man was a monster this season and a big name, as well as gave Browns fans something fun to watch. Has anyone SEEN Peyton run? He's like a monster truck on legs, it was just amazing to watch him run.
On the other hand, you have Aaron Rogers, MVP of the Superbowl, and able to put the Farve talk behind him to take the Packers and win the Super Bowl. He had a strong season, and overcame some concussions to win games.
BOTH those guys deserve the cover more than Vick, who split playing time, going into the season as not even a starter. He didn't win the super bowl while people talked about how he'll never be as good as Farve. He didn't come from nowhere to be seen literally bashing people to gain just that extra yard. You want to see footage of what football is about? Look up the Browns-Panthers game from '10 and see the TD run from a few yards out where he ran over a guy to get into the end zone. Don't you think THAT is who deserves to be on the cover of Madden, rather than a guy who was good before and had a good season for the half of it he played?
I personally think he shouldn't be on the cover because there are plenty of BETTER players than Vick. It's sad that it's Rogers and Hillis fighting in the semi-finals rather than the finals, because BOTH had WAY betters seasons than Vick
Sure, you could argue that Hillis faltered off near the end of the season, but the entire Cleveland Browns team did, and they changed game plans. The man was a monster this season and a big name, as well as gave Browns fans something fun to watch. Has anyone SEEN Peyton run? He's like a monster truck on legs, it was just amazing to watch him run.
On the other hand, you have Aaron Rogers, MVP of the Superbowl, and able to put the Farve talk behind him to take the Packers and win the Super Bowl. He had a strong season, and overcame some concussions to win games.
BOTH those guys deserve the cover more than Vick, who split playing time, going into the season as not even a starter. He didn't win the super bowl while people talked about how he'll never be as good as Farve. He didn't come from nowhere to be seen literally bashing people to gain just that extra yard. You want to see footage of what football is about? Look up the Browns-Panthers game from '10 and see the TD run from a few yards out where he ran over a guy to get into the end zone. Don't you think THAT is who deserves to be on the cover of Madden, rather than a guy who was good before and had a good season for the half of it he played?
I don't watch sports, so I could care less if he get's to play or not. As for the Madden Games, when I worked at a EB, Madden was the biggest joke; we would have so many used maddens in the back hanging above the door, we always keeped an eye out in case it decided to all come crashing down on one of us. Nobody buys last years Madden, so a store ends up with 5-7 different years of the game just collecting dust. In my eyes, Madden is among the worst games in the past 10 years, not because it is a bad game, but the fact that we have consistently had over 10 versions of the game with nothing new to offer to make people care about any one version. Now I don't play sports games, but I can at least see how simple the marketing of madden is, it gose like this "You buy the new Madden, because it is the new Madden, or your friends will think your lame."
Now if the Madden people dicided to work one the game for 5 years, and try to make the best American Football game seen in years, and one that will not be seen in years to come. Then I will give them credit, yet that is not going to happen.
Now if the Madden people dicided to work one the game for 5 years, and try to make the best American Football game seen in years, and one that will not be seen in years to come. Then I will give them credit, yet that is not going to happen.
Bob,
Before I begin, I must say two things as a disclaimer:
1. I am a longtime fan of your work and generally agree with you on most points.
2. Michael Vick is an asshole.
Now, I must say that in this particular instance, I fervently disagree with your position and feel that you have cast aside your typical objectivity. Michael Vick is not deserving of being punished further for the crime he committed for one simple fact; he has already been punished by the system that WE have put into place. Despite him being or having been a monstrosity at some point in his life, he has abided by the rules of our society and we do not have the right to legally brand him an outcast for the rest of his days without turning ourselves into hypocrites (despite the extremely objectionable morality of the choices he made). The law also cannot afford to reinterpret itself at every turn lest we lose the ability to be fair in our application (I do not see how, "Michael Vick the lifesaving surgeon" is less or more guilty than "Michael Vick the guy who throws a ball around" to quote your example). In the end, our professions, ethnicity, gender, and background do not matter. We are all just human.
And speaking from experience, you can turn your life around... though I sincerely doubt that Mr. Vick is doing anything of the sort.
All that being said, everyone please go to EA's website and vote for anyone BUT Michael Vick. He sure as hell has the right to be on the poll, but I'll be damned if I vote for him.
Before I begin, I must say two things as a disclaimer:
1. I am a longtime fan of your work and generally agree with you on most points.
2. Michael Vick is an asshole.
Now, I must say that in this particular instance, I fervently disagree with your position and feel that you have cast aside your typical objectivity. Michael Vick is not deserving of being punished further for the crime he committed for one simple fact; he has already been punished by the system that WE have put into place. Despite him being or having been a monstrosity at some point in his life, he has abided by the rules of our society and we do not have the right to legally brand him an outcast for the rest of his days without turning ourselves into hypocrites (despite the extremely objectionable morality of the choices he made). The law also cannot afford to reinterpret itself at every turn lest we lose the ability to be fair in our application (I do not see how, "Michael Vick the lifesaving surgeon" is less or more guilty than "Michael Vick the guy who throws a ball around" to quote your example). In the end, our professions, ethnicity, gender, and background do not matter. We are all just human.
And speaking from experience, you can turn your life around... though I sincerely doubt that Mr. Vick is doing anything of the sort.
All that being said, everyone please go to EA's website and vote for anyone BUT Michael Vick. He sure as hell has the right to be on the poll, but I'll be damned if I vote for him.