The Big Picture: Maddening

[duck-man]

Well this is the sort of philosophical argument I enjoy!
I'm afraid that I'm of the opinion that there's no such thing as irredeemable: No matter what a person's done in the past all that ought to matter is what they're going to do and how they're going to think from here onwards.
However, more socially speaking, there's obvious issues with trust! Obvious. I'd have to agree that it's VERY dodgey to be making him any kind of public icon but that all depends on how much trust he's reclaimed.
Forgiveness isn't about saying that what they did was understandable or in any way ok, but rather to say that who they are Now is acceptable, or Ought to be, in my opinion. But even with that last disclaimer it sounds preachy...

So yea, as someone who doesn't know the person at all or the issue (very well) I really can't form an opinion on this particular case, but that If he is to be placed on the cover then he'd better have been forgiven first, by previous definition of forgiven. Right?
P.S. When someone's judged by their past and any action against them is taken Solely on that, that's just retribution, Right?
P.P.S. Aught? Ought? Ort!

 

[Dwachak]

Completely agree with you Bob. I myself stopped watching =3 on youtube because Ray made fun of a dog getting trampled by a deer. Don't know if you know the show, but even that little is enough for me to write off a person.. With Vic I would probably slap him if I ever met him =( And you really summed up my thoughts on how most animals can't be evil, they just don't have the disposition for it.

Edit: Ok I wouldn't slap him, I just got fired up (happens easily when I hear of animal cruelty), but I would proclaim my thoughts loudly.. or well maybe just say that I recent him.. or just an evil look.. ok I would probably just send mind-waves at him to make him fall and scrape his knee, but it would be heavy mind-waves!

 

[PunkRex]

I suggest we put bob on the cover.

Can we have our own poll and send it to EA? I think we should put forward Seijuro Shin and Charizard as well.

Oh well if we're doing this, I'd like to also nominate Vinny Jones, Gilbert Gottfried, Johnny Bravo, David Mitchell, Dawn French, and my friend Franco.

Dont forget Fluttershy!

 

[Dana22]

Dont go to Spain. Torturing and killing animals (bulls) there is a part of tradition

 

[Leonemian]

I both agree and disagree with Bob. I think that the Madden games are terrible games because they are terrible games, and should be judged on their status and worth as games, not judged because they are about football, as odd as that sounds. And I believe that Michael Vick IS totally in the wrong for this. For one thing, if I had done this, (which I have not) and I had really decided to turn my life around or attempt to atone for what I had done, than I probably would have done something along the lines of donated all of my money to a dog shelter, or tried to put myself through exactly what my victims did. Side note, I have a dog, so this hits really close to home for me. But Vick did not. Yes, he served out the extent of his sentence, but that, in my eyes, is not atonement. That is what he was forced to do. That was his government-ordered punishment. I see no evidence that he holds himself responsible for the atrocity he committed. And that, in a nutshell, is why I believe that, without evidence to the contrary, Michael Vick, is in fact "A horrible, terrible waste of a human life." On this, Bob and I agree.

However, I don't think that that should take him out of the running for the cover of the Madden NFL games. I think that if the NFL is going to let him continue to play despite his charges, that is disreputable, but their choice. And so, from a logical point of view, I can see EA's excuse. They are judging him for a football game, not on his status as a human being, but on his skill at playing football. If EA gives that as its excuse, I will accept it. They are, after all, making a game about football, and would probably want the best football player to be their mascot. But they have not given this excuse. They have not given any excuse. And so, I must return to my original conclusion. That Michael Vick is a terrible person, and that EA is a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE, video game company. And with that, I wish EA and Mr. Vick, a profitable and long relationship. And I, for one, agree with Bob's big picture. Again.

 

[Gottesstrafe]

I'm I they only one that smiled a bit at the thought of Bob getting a justified beating, I felt bad about feeling good about that afterwards, but still.

As for Vick winning, its the internet, I feel they are deliberately voting the choice that will make the game have a bad public image for the sake of laughs. Its not because they support him, they just find it funny that someone with a lot of hate gets rewarded and they get to watch people get angry over it. So yeah EA shouldn't have put him in the the running in the first place, but the internets going to do what it always does. The internet voted that a bridge in hungry be named after Stephen Colbert, a british special forces group use the Team Gurren symbol, and that Justin Beiber be sent to North Korea, all for laughs.

You forgot to mention the internet voting Pedobear as Miley Cyrus's #1 Fan, Rick Astley as the winner of MTV Europe's "Best Act Ever" award, and Bristol Palin into 3rd place for Dancing With the Stars 2010.

 

[stonemaskstoryteller]

This is a good point. EA's terrible games and Michael Vick's terrible reputation for beating dogs have nothing to do with one another so noone has any moral obligation to stop his face from appearing on a sports game. HOWEVER, if anyone, it is EA who will crash and burn becuase of this decision.

It's like advertizing Hitler's face on a cookbook. No matter how good or bad a cook Hitler may be, or how groundbreaking the new book may seem, ultimately it is the consumer who decides whether they want to purchase a book with a genocidal dictator on the front. And considering his reputation, it's proberbly not going to sell like hot cakes.

I say; by all means voice your opinions about him, but if EA want to go through with this then they're the ones who will suffer as a company for their bad move.

 

[Optimystic]

Poor Bob, he sounds so sad at the end.

He's appealing to reason... from EA. It's sort of where hope goes to die, you know?

 

[Takeda Shingen]

No, I'm talking about his community service: He has become a spokesman for stopping dogfighting.

Yes, I know he became an advocate against animal cruelty out of necessity, and that he could very well not regret a single moment of his own dogfighting. I don't care. Michael Vick is the best thing to ever happen to the cause against dogfighting. Dogfighting is an underground practice that is geographically isolated, and was accordingly something that the public was mostly unaware of... until Michael Vick. He brought the issue front and center, and between the media frenzy and his subsequent community service and activism, he has helped bring light to this practice. Whether or not his motivations are self preservation or genuine regret are immaterial: the number of dogs he has helped to save outweighs the number of dogs he helped to murder.

Yes, thank you. I'm not sure why people keep forgetting about the community service he's been doing.

Doesn't justify what he did, but at least he's making some kind of effort (unwilling or willingly) to make up for the things he did.

 

[JamesStone]

I agree 100%. This guy is a big fat douche and shouldn´t be forgiven just because is paid a ungodly amount of cash to play "get the ball" all day long.

 

[JamesStone]

I agree 100%. This guy is a big fat douche and shouldn´t be forgiven just because is paid a ungodly amount of cash to play "get the ball" all day long.

 

[matt87_50]

I agree 100%...

its like this... is the murder of a little child more despicable than the murder of a 20 something yearold?

of course it is...

why?


...


and thats why I think crimes against animals are Majorly under rated (by which I mean not frowned upon enough)



and for those who think that "someone who thinks that this is as evil a crime as murdering a person, yet eats meat and wears fur coats, is a HYPOCRITE!!" I could explain how you are wrong... but I can't be bothered...

just... you are wrong!

 

[twiceworn]

this has to be a joke its just too pants on head retarded to be anything else.
tem me se if i am getting this right he did somthing bad got punished said he was sorry started to turn his life around and and managed to get his life back together.......AND YOU STILL HATE HIM?????????????????????????
WTF HE PAYED FOR HIS CRIMES HE SAID SORRY WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT YOU SAID YOU AGREE WITH FORGIVNES BUT NOT FOR A MAN WHO RAN DOGFIGHTS??????????????????????

this is a troll video bob just trolled everyone and it worked so i say again it is a joke

(I am still happy and untrolled)

 

[Takeda Shingen]

I'm against him because he has literally shown nor remorse or regret for having dogs kill each other for selfish purposes

... he's a famous football player so he pretty much got a slap on the hand rather then what anyone else would of gotten. He's a football player, not a hero who risks his life.. all he does is throws a ball for people's entertainment. He has no credibility and shouldn't be spared criticism all because he is well-known or liked for his skills.

...When you stick up for someone, really understand the reason why rather then feeling you need to just because you feel that what he did was 'minor' or being taken seriously. Even the Staff here take it seriously, and Bob himself does. What is your reason to defend him? You don't have to answer but I want you to think carefully about that. For I know the reason why I am against him and that is he used his best friend to fight, bleeding out for what? So Vick could gain money and use his beloved pet again till it drops dead. There is no excuse..

I respect your opinion about Vick. I think it's fine that some people will never forgive him. I think it's legit that people say he shouldn't be on the Madden cover. What I disagree with is people calling down hellfire and wishing all the world's ills on Vick. I think to many people are too quick to make an emotional decision about Vick because of brutality of his crime and that his victims were dogs. I also think that racism and Vick's status as an athlete/celebrity account on some level for a lot of the hatred thrown his way.

a.) I'm not sure any of us will truly know if Vick feels remorse. On the other hand, his actions demonstrate that on some level he accepts accountability for his actions. He gives a substantial amount of his salary back to charities that stop dog fighting. He also speaks on a regular basis about the evils of dog fighting. Furthermore, he's a different person since he last was in the game. At Atlanta, he just rode his natural athletic ability. He showed up to meetings late, ate horribly, admitted that he did not really care. In Philly, he's a professional. Shows up on time, eats right, works out. Some people may not accept that as a sign that he's any different, but a radical change in his professional attitude suggests he understands his life can change, that it's got to change.

b.) I would hesitate from calling years in jail, millions in forfeited salary, and incessant condemnation by the media a slap on the wrist. As a human being he deserves some level of consideration and understanding. You just made this less about dog-fighthing and more about the fact that you think Vick's career has no social worth. Maybe you don't like football, that's fine, but do not condemn someone just on the basis of their profession.

c.) If you read my earlier posts, you'll see that I take this very seriously. I don't condone Vick's crimes, I'm not sure if I can ever fully forgive him myself. At the same time, what he did is a lot more complex than a man deciding he's going to make the lives of dogs miserable. You don't even know if Vick had any reason to consider those animals his beloved pets. Defending Vick is too strong a phrase. Rather, I challenge you to consider that all the controversy surrounding Vick involves way more than just the generally accepted notion that dogfighting is brutal and evil. So when you decide to hate someone, really understand the reason why rather than just throwing all of your anger at that person in an emotional response.

 

[twiceworn]

I agree 100%...

its like this... is the murder of a little child more despicable than the murder of a 20 something yearold?

of course it is...

why?


...


and thats why I think crimes against animals are Majorly under rated (by which I mean not frowned upon enough)



and for those who think that "someone who thinks that this is as evil a crime as murdering a person, yet eats meat and wears fur coats, is a HYPOCRITE!!" I could explain how you are wrong... but I can't be bothered...

just... you are wrong!

OK EXPLAIN AS IT IS THE SAME!!!
it is of no concern to the animals how they die THEY ARE DEAD
it is two faced and clearly a troll video made to get over 500 angry people posting and it worked

 

[NezumiiroKitsune]

No one should be paid that much money and given that much publicity to throw a ball around anyway, and the Madden games are equaled in there utter inanity by FIFA; a small DLC update that should by all rights be a free patch, especially since they keep justifying it by fixing seemingly arbitrary bugs that appear to solely excuse the existence of the next ga me. People still pay £40 on release every year for this shit though, and I can't blame EA for putting it out if people are going to buy it. It probably makes a firm foundation for their bottom line.

As for Vick, well I'd only heard of him online once or twice and deduced he was sick and required jail time and counselling. If he's recieved both and is eager to seek forgiveness and moral absolution, I suppose he should be allowed to throw a ball around, however ridiculous it is that he gets paid so much to do it (ridiculous but again, completely understandable, it's all about money). The fact it looks like he gets to poster boy the game just indicates the vast indifference the majority of the madden buying American public have towards what he's done in contrast to well... what he's doing.

I would have personally made it so he was never allowed to perform on the public stage every again, which means no NFL, no press, no cover art.

 

[Zydrate]

If you're saying that, you're a downright moron.

Now, was that really necessary?

I simply don't see non-human animals as equals. Is this really such an offensive concept?

I suppose it wasn't, but it's true.

I understand what you're saying, but I was just trying to have an interesting argument.

By resorting to direct insults? Bad form, friendo! Bad form!

I guess.

But then again, I do get very butthurt when I hear people who don't mind killing animals or who think they're below us.

By the way, since you're an atheist, you will agree that if it weren't for animals we wouldn't even be around.

And technically, we are animals.

So are we below ourselves?

Naw. We're just on the top of the food chain.

 

[Velocirapture07]

Bob I almost always disagree with you, and this time is no difference. Vick fucked up and did some horrible shit. He served time in prison and did not kill human beings. Also, on the sliding scale of humanity, I'd rate a lot of athletes higher than you. You put together a bunch of random pictures and talk over them with your opinion.

Whoopdy fucking do.

I'm pretty sure there's been other ex-criminals on the front of madden games. They also probably committed crimes against human beings which will always be more damning than anything done to animals. I like animals, but in this case you're completely wrong. I truly feel like he's trying to come back from the mistakes he made. Hell, maybe that is impossible, but at least he's trying.

I'm sure you've never done anything wrong though Bob, nothing you've ever regretted. You're just another freaking mouth piece on the internet no different than any other except for the fact that you get paid to spout to other people your opinion on things. Why don't you pay attention to yourself and your own shortcomings instead of focusing on someone who made animals fight each other. I also like how no one gives a fuck if you have a snake fight or something like that, but when it's fluffy cute shit everyone flips. He wasn't stuffing poodles and lolcats into arenas and torturing them (these were dogs trained and conditioned to be violent ANIMALS)

All in all, you're dead wrong. Animals will never be on the same level as humans, no matter how cuddly wuddly they are (and believe me I do love animals-I own a cat). Vick didn't murder a human child, he didn't violently rape anyone, he didn't assualt a grandmother, he didn't slaughter babies, etc. Get your priorities straight. It's time to move the fuck on and get over it. This series pisses me off to no end as well. How the hell do you actually get paid to spew your opinion and spout it off like fact?!

Judging by your own admission that you usually watch Bob's segments, I can only guess this is meant to be seen as an obvious troll. Really, if you have so much hate for Bob, why watch him? Also, there are a lot of people that get paid to give their opinions; opinion columnist for most newspapers, critics of all kinds, and let's not forget the consultants (financial, business, expert witnesses...) and so on.

Also, if think forcing animals to fight to the death for our amusement is ACCEPTABLE, then you, my good sir, are in need of professional psychiatric help. Do you have any idea how dogfighting works? The dogs are trained to kill by being beaten, starved, and given other animals to kill, usually stolen pets referred to as bait animals. So yes, Vick was "stuffing poodles and lolcats into arenas and torturing them". Are you saying it would be fine if someone took YOUR cat and tossed it between two starved and vicious dogs? I'll give you a hint: Say "no" and you're a hypocrite, say "yes" and you're as sick a fuck as Vick.

Another thing, as I mentioned in an earlier post, torturing and killing animals is a good predictor of violence against humans. It's usually a stepping stone for much worse, often carriers as serial killers (see Jeffrey Dalmer and Denis Raider [BTK]). It's not that it was "just animals", it's that it was a red flag for a psychopath.

And as for the shit about animals not being on the same level as humans, wasn't the same thing said about women, blacks, Jews, Native Americans, and various other groups throughout history? Newsflash, PEOPLE ARE ANIMALS TOO! We're not on a higher level than any other animals. Even if you chose to ignore that, Vick chose to commit horrendous acts upon something that was helpless and dependant on him for its survival, not unlike a human infant. He's a monster that was caught before he could do more damage, and you're just as bad for defending him.

I should have written "Bob, when I do watch your segments I almost always disagree with you" or "when I actually comment on, or get through one of your segments I almost always disagree." Trolling is a waste of time and is not what I'm doing.

Also i never stated that dogfighting was acceptable. In fact it is pretty horrible and indefensible. That's why he went to jail and was punished for his crime. However, I vehemently disagree with your assertion that animals are on the same level as humans. I don't think the jews, blacks, or native americans were dependent on anyone for their survival, mostly because they have large brains and complex emotions that animals lack.

Humans are on a whole different plane, and to act as if they're not is just ridiculous.

I'm glad he was caught and that he's turned his life around. Perhaps he should not be on the cover of the game, perhaps he should. All I'm saying is that I find it interesting that people are so obsessed with this particular crime and criminal enough to ignore the other people in the nfl who have committed crimes against human beings.

In order of increasing importance:
1) Current research have conclusively shown that a large number of non-human animals are capable of complex emotions, reasoning abilities, and even language skills that where considered to be uniquely human. No, we are not on a different plan. We're just on a slightly different evolutionary branch.

2) My point about about blacks, Jews, Native Americans and women was about how humans can see themselves as being superior to other humans and can therefore justify horrific actions against them. The "dependant for survival" point was to show that, at least in infancy, humans are not that different from other animals, especially domesticated ones. Vick was taking advantage of something which he had complete control over.

3) No one is ignoring other NFL individuals who have committed crimes against humans. There are literally enough to make a team with, and I don't think any of them will make the cover of Madden. The thing with Vick isn't just his crime, but what it's a sign of. In addition to animal cruelty, Vick has a history of drug use, violence, and numerous other criminal offences. The fact that he hasn't killed a human yet is surprising. You say he's turned his life around, but I don't think he'll keep on track for much longer. It's not what he's done, it's what he'll do next. And given where this pattern of behaviour can lead to, it doesn't look good. It'll be OJ Simpson all over again. That's why we're focused on this one criminal.

Fair enough. My original post was pretty inflammatory and for that I apologize. Bob just really pisses me off sometimes. I see your point and you represented it well. I'm not saying I totally agree, but your opinion is noted.

 

[orangecharger]

Vick is a sick fucker! Anyone that does that to a dog needs to have his brain ripped out.

I will not debate Vick and his crimes (I agree with Bob), but does anyone remember a stink about Ray Lewis getting the cover of Madden 2005? He was indicted for murder in 2000. He ended up getting probation and the charge reduced to obstruction. However the suit he was wearing was never turned over to police or found -- and two guys ended up dead in a confrontation with him and his entourage. No one was ever successfully charged. I am not sure how that happened. He also had campus police involved in abuse of I think two different girls when he was in college. Truly an upstanding citizen for consideration for the cover Madden '05. So this would not be the first time EA put someone questionable on the cover of the game.

I like to watch Ray and Vick play football and I believe until proven otherwise that they are on the straight and narrow now. I am all for redemption, but I draw the line at glorification.

 

[matt87_50]

I agree 100%...

its like this... is the murder of a little child more despicable than the murder of a 20 something yearold?

of course it is...

why?


...


and thats why I think crimes against animals are Majorly under rated (by which I mean not frowned upon enough)



and for those who think that "someone who thinks that this is as evil a crime as murdering a person, yet eats meat and wears fur coats, is a HYPOCRITE!!" I could explain how you are wrong... but I can't be bothered...

just... you are wrong!

OK EXPLAIN AS IT IS THE SAME!!!
it is of no concern to the animals how they die THEY ARE DEAD
it is two faced and clearly a troll video made to get over 500 angry people posting and it worked

no, it is of no concern to the animals THAT THEY ARE DEAD. because they are dead.

I can assure you that the fear and pain they feel as they are dieing is of GREAT concern to them! thats why they yelp!!

honestly, I see no difference between this, and making homeless bums with no next of kin, fight to death using rusty blades.

do you? if you aren't a homeless bum, there is absolutely no difference... hell, in fact, thats probably better than using animals, atleast the homeless bum has the opportunity to get a job, and not be homeless, thus avoiding that fate... so yeah, using dogs is actually worse!