The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

[I.Muir]

I'm more inclined to think Bio ware is in the wrong on this one even if it is because they are acting as childish as the fans. Sticking their heads in the sand won't make their games any better and it's a shame to see this fine company go this way. The amount of what people had problems with that is attributed to EA's influence I don't know. I'm also inclined to think any of influence EA had on the project was probably bad.

This Video is one I agree with on the game as a whole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBETU-uOGh8
This is the response to Colin Moriarty's response to "gamer entitlement"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz8_j-ebfaI
This is appeal to ridicule right, but whatever I still think it's valid.

On to the other topic, the Teenage Alien Turtles will probably just be ignored in the future and done over again anyway. It's Michael Bay so it's going to be bad but sell well for no apparent reason.

 

[TornadoADV]

I find it so ironic that Bob's generation is complaining about change in TMNT when their version was watered down, butchered, and badly animated. And the TMNT movie was tied to the 2003 cartoon (the better one), not the other movies.

Pretty much this. And Mass Effect is a terrible series due to being produced by a Bioware ravaged by EA, rather than by one working with Sega or by an independent one. #LiberateBioware

You mean Microsoft Studios. It's like EA or Activision, except there are no attachments to the money it throws at your face.

 

[TornadoADV]

Patronized by somebody who knows nothing about what's going on and is more then happy to feed into the gamer stereotype about being entitled and bratty. God forbid me as a consumer has the right to hold a company to some sort of standard.

Well that is at least an attempt at a less silly arguement than than "Retake ME" try to present.

If it is a case of breach of contract then you go something semi reasonable, but it would require you to apply the same passion to all breaches of contract since the medium should be irrelevant.

I find that it is (or that I do). But I have rarely gotten something that I thought was good or was told was good and then it turned out not to be so. I think ME3 exposes a larger issue of how video games are released, by the very fact that everybody says that 99% of the game is awesome, but the important 1% (You know, the ending) is completely and utterly incomprehensible shit that destroys not only the character mythos but invalidates the player's involvement in the series.

How can a game get perfect scores and nobody except those that reviewed after release date mentions this? Because it exposes a conflict of interest between game reviewers and game companies.

 

[Dansen]

What made the Mass Effect ending into a controversy is this need for everyone on both sides to have their word be the final one, and thus Bob having an irresistible urge to ruin a perfectly good episode of The big Picture by saying nothing we haven't heard already dozens of times.

I think this man is on to some thing...

 

[BehattedWanderer]

MovieBob, capable of switching from respectably endowed with knowledge to completely missing the point faster that the flash can run since 2010.

Geez. Haven't seen this much of an outcry over fictional media since... Lost?

At least people forgot about it within two weeks for that one, even if they were only mad because they the weekly format for the show meant things that are vital to the actual understanding of the show get played as itsy bitsy unimportant events that people forgot happened until they realized they should have been paying attention.

 

[Trikeen]

Goddamnit, Bob. Thanks for going on a Mass Effect rant, even after doing an entire episode of your long-since-ruined Game Overthinker show. -_-

 

[Dansen]

This best explains the whole Mass Effect 3 controversy.

That was actually pretty good.

That was fucking brilliant, reposting so that more people can see this.

 

[Stalydan]

I have said it before and I will say it again: What was so bad about the ME3 ending?

Lack of closure and elements that conflict with those already established in the rest of the game and series overall. They were so many parts of the ending that could be picked apart by saying "Wait, did I disprove that before?" and then having such a vague epilogue that doesn't really give you reasons for why a lot of the stuff you're seeing is happening.

But that alone isn't really deserving of the insane amount of rage generated by this. Sure, it's got a broad and somewhat undefined ending, but, as it was clear well before the game was shipped, there are more Mass Effect games coming. Covering every [surviving] companion's ending would be much more clunky and expository in a way that doesn't add to the narrative or story whatsoever.

Did you ever watch the end of Children of Man? The ending is about as vague and as non-conclusive you can get for a movie with a rich lore and narrative behind it, but it worked because it relied on the audience to fill in the details (was he dead? What was the ship? What happened to the rest of the world, etc.).

Disregarding the fact there is no option to refuse, it's really weird that nobody pulled the writer of it over it to say "The ending doesn't fit with the rest of the game". Then again, hearing the rumors about the ending generated by one of the writers, it sounds a lot like Casey Hudson didn't talk about the planned ending much.

Shepard's end is documented and there is no way that she is going to refuse and completely walk away from three options, each of which would end the cycle of the reapers. It may not be the ending you wanted, but it was fairly clear throughout the game, in my opinion, that the Crucible was going to be that kind of McGuffan.

The question that results always when you complain about an ending is this: how would you have ended it? It's one thing to complain, but how do you end a narrative arch where the entire last game is a third act? You realize the moment that you hit that first dream that Shepard is not walking away from this one, so how do you end her life in a way that brings closure to her story (not necessarily the story of the galaxy as a whole)?

Ahhhh you had a Fem Shep. Good on you. I'm going to do a playthrough one day as her but I need to play ME2 again before that.

My Shepard had already faced so many of his own problems. He'd been raised on the colony on Mindoir that had been raided by slavers and then enlisted in the Alliance. He held off the Batarians on Elysium single-handedly and became a War-Hero. Even after all the things that happened with Reapers, he still survived. I always believed that even in the worst, as a soldier, he'd either win or go down fighting. One of the big points for me with that was with Tali on Rannoch; at that point, I was fighting as much for her as much as I was fighting for Earth. After making closure with her story and that romance option, it felt right that Shepard could die now but only if it would make a good difference.

But after finding out what the Catalyst would do, all that time spent with Legion and Tali and seeing how they could work together felt like it had much more meaning, especially when Legion sacrificed himself so the Geth could become better and help the Quarians. I really did not want to let that go but I'd promised myself that I'd destroy the Reapers and end the cycle. If the game reinforced any points about the series for it was that "Nothing is impossible and everything is achievable". After gathering my huge fleet and people willing to lay down their lives for Shepard's cause, it felt so wrong that my Shepard would abandon them all on Earth without the Mass Relays and, in my case, destroy all Synthetic life. I could easily have seen them having a last stand against the Reapers but it didn't play out like that, instead I didn't even get to do that or see the effect of my actions that had been built up for three games. It's why I disappointed. I think some of the things that people done in response to it have been stupid but I don't think the reaction to it was unjustified; it was quite a let-down for a game that had built up for years.

I'm fully supporting a new ending. Not taking away from the original ones but expanding on them as to what is going on during those last bits. Sometimes being vague works but other times it just doesn't. I feel this is one is of the latter. I also support adding more options to it. Refusing is what a lot of fans felt Shepard should be able to do. Taking risks has always been something that he does and I think after taking all that time to assemble the biggest military force in the history of the galaxy, Shepard could rely on those people to stand their ground against the Reapers. He could trust his crew to lead the fights, take down the enemy and even win. It'd have its costs but when I compare it to the rest of the decisions, it's the logical one that I'm surprised you weren't allowed to take. The others aren't down to chance but that one is. That was what my Shepard would do and it's why I was sad that that wasn't his end.

 

[rayen020]

Full Disclosure; I have not played Mass Effect 1, 2, or 3. I have been watching this from the sidelines. I do not intend to play Mass Effect 1,2, or 3. My exposure to the series is the snippets i read on the escapist and elsewhere, And also the let's play series "Spoiler Warning" [http://www.youtube.com/user/SpoilerWarningShow] on shamusyoung.com [www.shamusyoung.com].

From where i'm sitting i'm seeing a disconnect between the creators and consumers. Everyone who makes something sees the Mass Effect thing as a threat to creative risk. I don't think that that is really what's being railed against here. Especially because most of those creators aren't fans of the series, so i don't think they have a good perspective to talk about the issue.

And i think that fans are not unified enough and as always the loudest are the most radical.

I don't think so much that Mass Effect players want the end to change. Most i think would agree that the ship has sailed and even if they did change the end it would be hollow and rushed and stupid. The problem is the game was built on system that said
-you make choices and those choices affect the outcome.
-your choices do matter.
-and each choice will bring a different outcome.

And then the directors and creators and advertisers all said those things. And the end of the game gave no choice, or at most choices that didn't matter. Take note that the FTC complaint isn't that the game or the ending sucked, it was that promises were made and then broken. that a game was falsely advertised. and that in my book is a legitimate complaint.

The problem is that the choices all have the same outcome (basically), and that every single person get the same choices. Same choices a, b, or c, regardless of playstyle, paragon/renegade meter, the armada strength thing..., how you ended the first two games, or any choice you made in any of the games. I not saying that they should change the ending, but i do think that someone should stand up and dole out honest answers. Which theoretically is what an FTC complaint would do. Bad endings wouldn't be anything new in this medium. I we've all shielded ourselves against such disappointments, but a game that advertised itself a certain way, played a certain way and was told would be a certain way and then does a complete 180 turn at the end? Thats more than just a lack of closure, plot hole sealant, and affirmation of theme, thats false advertising.

Tl;Dr ; I don't think a new ending should be made, but i do think the FTC complaint is legitimate.

And as for the turtles, doin' my level best to not care.

 

[rayen020]

You ever heard of Sherlock Holmes? He died once. He's better now,but the reasoning behind the reappearance? The fans.

And for your information Arthur Conan Doyle didn't bring back Holmes because of his fans, he brought him back because his mum asked him too. Maybe you could read a little more before talking about what you know nothing about next time.

honestly i thought it was about the money.

 

[Alexander Bonney]

All I want to say about the Mass Effect thing is this: I'm not upset because the devs made a shitty ending. I'm upset because the Mass Effect series has been advertised in such a way that one could reasonably believe the dozens (hell, nearly a hundred) of choices you make per game actually have some kind of meaning and will determine how the epic trilogy finally resolves. And when BioWare said "check it bitches, we have 16 unique and totally rad endings" I thought to myself, well yay! A game company is actually following through with their promises for a change (I'm looking at you Skyrim)! And then we find out that not only is the ending bad, but all sixteen endings are basically the exact same. That's pretty much false advertisement of the most severe degree. That's two hundred dollars of hard-earned cash blown up in my face. That's half-assing something that you KNOW will make you filthy rich regardless. That's what's wrong with the industry right now. Nobody's pushing the boundaries, everybody's turning out another sequel each year, and when one game finally tries to change that, backed by the excellent writing we've come to know and love from games like Baldur's Gate (not Dragon Age), but then they also not only cave into including useless (albeit, actually decent in this rare case) multi player in a previously dedicated single player experience, just to ensure both single player and multi player DLC sales in the future, and cater to the Cod crowd, but then give the actual fans of the series one of the worst endings imaginable? Yeah, no, people have a right to be mad, and all too many voices in the video game community are adopting a pretentious tone and claiming that nobody has a right to express their distaste towards one of the most important decisions BioWare has made in the last decade.

Are some of the fans overreacting? Of course. But hey, apparently they're going to sell us a new ending in DLC now, so guess what, everybody loses, not just the fans. I guess we'll drag them to hell with us, if we have to.

 

[carpathic]

Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even ***** about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.

Actually, one could fairly argue that your post is the very height of self-entitled bullshit.

It seems as though you are the type of person who thinks that stating something categorically in a no-nonsense tone automatically makes you correct. If someone has the temerity to disagree you raise your voice and state it louder. Then, if resistance still remains you'll insult their intelligence/gender. Finally, when it becomes clear someone still doesn't agree with your revealed truth, you'll strawman or ad hominem them.

I am certian you're a blast at a party.

I understand where you are coming from, there are some immature elements to the whole retake mass effect, but I suspect that your tone does not go a long way toward developing some sort of dialogue to help others recognize the flaws in their argument. Much as my immature diatribe will fail to do the same with you.

People care about the ending, they feel the ending delivered was more Molyneux than Miracle on Ice. Promises were made by the developer which were either not met or blatantly ignored. That has nothing to do with art and everything to do with false advertising. If I bought a game where the developer was on record stating that the ending would absolutely not boil down to a simple three-way ending, where I was told all along choice mattered and the final product was a three-way ending where my choices did not ultimately matter - then yes, they owe me something - the PRODUCT they promised. If I bought a car that was supposed to go 100mph, and all of the advertisement said it went 100mph; where in reality the car's top speed was 50mph, I'd sue the manufacturer. Lots of people say cars are art, should automakers be immune? Do they not owe me a functioning car because they are really art and as such inviolate?

I'm not saying I'm right, but I am categorically denying that you are.

 

[laserwulf]

Well said, Bob. This reply is a drop in the ocean, but I can't remain silently complicit while a vocal minority brings so much negative attention to the gaming community as a whole. In so many of these arguments about ME3, defenders of Retake Mass Effect try to discredit opponents and/or elevate off-the-cuff comments about a game that is IN AN UNFINISHED STATE to the level of official advertising or some sort of legally binding agreement (FTC & BBB complaints, Amazon.com refunds? Really?), rather than address the issues that folks like you bring up.

The thing that really baffles me is that outside of professional reviews, I haven't heard what the community at large feels about the actual -game- portion of the game. Is the ending honestly so terrible that it makes 10/20/30/etc. hours of gameplay not fun?

I'm not so sure about us being the minority here (Poll 1 [http://social.bioware.com/poll.php?user=1183972&poll_id=29101])(Poll 2 [http://social.bioware.com/poll.php?user=633606&poll_id=28989]).

As to your last question, unfortunately I would say yes. The defining point of the entire Mass Effect trilogy was that you got to shape the galaxy with your actions and choices. This is literally THE driving force behind the game right up until the last 10 minutes of a 100+ hour journey where every decision you have ever made is rendered moot and you push one of three buttons to get one of three differently colored, but otherwise identical, cutscenes with no closure, no explanation, and no resolution (not to mention numerous newly-introduced plot holes).

To be clear the first 99% of ME3 is, in my book, one of the greatest games I've ever played, but I literally can't bring myself to go back and play any of the trilogy again knowing that nothing that I do matters in the slightest and every mystery and plot arc that I start will forever remain unfinished. This is a sentiment I've heard reflected in many places. I don't want a new ending; you can't un-write what has been written. I'm disappointed that this is how what is arguably the greatest RPG series ever made had to end, but I can deal with that. The lies, though...

The only thing those polls show is that the majority of people who answered that poll are dissatisfied. And who's more likely to take the time to visit a developer's forum and answer a poll about what content should be added to the story, those who are content (or even happy) with the game, or those who are displeased or angry?

Once I get near the ending of ME3, I'm going to just turn my 360 off, so as to not negate the fun I've had getting to that point.

Honestly, that is probably a brilliant idea, but I don't mean to ruin the experience for you. You should definitely finish the game (especially if you have plugged in hundreds of hours into a carried-over save) because you might not hate the ending. I honestly don't understand how anybody could have possibly been satisfied by it, but some people have claimed as much. You should form your own opinion.

Also, I know those polls aren't scientific by any means, but when 97% of nearly 70,000 people on a forum that is owned and operated by the people who made the game express their dissatisfaction, I'm inclined to believe that we are actually the majority in this case. My own qualitative observation of various forums and media outlets (as well as my own exceedingly negative opinion of the ending itself) would seem to support this viewpoint. But it really doesn't matter which "side" has more people. I think everyone agrees that the entire situation is exceedingly unfortunate.

Edit: I should have mentioned that the prompt for Poll 1 has spoilers, sorry about that.

I was being sarcastic about intentionally not watching the ending. :|

Anyways, EA has apparently sent 3.5 million copies of ME3 to retailers, and sold 890,000 copies just in North America, in just the first 24 hrs. ~70,000 people may seem like a lot, but that's still less than 8% of the fans so devoted that they bought the game as soon as possible. And who do you think is going to be more vocal with either their praise or hatred than the die-hard fans? Equipped with this knowledge of a lackluster ending, more recent buyers and the entire European market may approach the game with more moderate expectations. I'll be honestly surprised if that 8% goes anywhere but down over time.
http://venturebeat.com/2012/03/08/electronic-arts-reveals-new-mass-effect-3-and-star-wars-mmo-numbers/

[Don't worry about spoilers, I don't freak out about them since I still want to know a narrative gets to such points. Thanks, though.]

 

[DugMachine]

Agreed MovieBob. I played ME3 and the ending did suck bad BUT then I realize its just a video game and there's no reason to get upset over it. In 10 years you won't even be playing the damn thing anyways and whatever "choices" that felt so important to you in the now won't matter when you're playing Rass Defect or whatever new games will be out in the future. So please, everybody just calm the fuck down

 

[QUINTIX]

This is one really mature and intelligent individual and we could really gain from listening to his wise opinions.

Delicious sarcasm is delicious.

 

[Strain42]

Hmm, almost 400 comments on the day the video came out? I can only assume this means perhaps a few people are angry with what he's said.

-this line separates the time before and the time after watching this episode-

Yeah, I'm gonna go with people being pretty mad about this. Oh well, that's the internet for ya. Toodles!

In all seriousness though, this isn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be. I haven't read every single post here because I have important things to do like check e-mail, watch DVD commentary and secretly wish that Tron: Legacy had actually sucked just so we could all call it the "New Tron Bomb."

I thought that compared to some episodes where Bob has something to specifically say to us...this was one of the less insulting ones. I usually find myself agreeing with Bob, sometimes I don't. Sometimes even when I do agree with him on stuff like hating certain movies, I can still think he goes too far (for instance: Bob...I KNOW you don't like the Transformers movies. I don't either. You don't have to mention it so much...)

But this one I thought was a pretty well written, calmly spoken episode. He wasn't saying "Hey ME fans, if you didn't like ME3's ending, you're stupid and suck it up." He was just pointing out that certain factions of the internet are taking the rage about it just a little bit too far. And if you can't even agree with that then...I feel like anything I say here could get me reported, so I'll just drop it.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

I kinda have mixed feelings about the whole Mass Effect debacle. One the one hand, from what I hear, the ending is stupid, but... it still rubs me the wrong way. I think EA had something to do with how it turned out, though.

(And now I'm reminded of the whole "Save Derpy Hooves" issue. Sheesh, people never learn, do they?)

As for the "Teenage Alien Ninja Turtles" thing, well, technically, the turtles have an alien-related origin... but making them aliens seems to be going a bit far...

(Personally, I liked the '03 cartoon - at least until they went into the future and it got all stupid - but to each their own, I guess.)

 

[permacrete]

Bob, here's the thing: If you commission a painted family portrait, you expect that all of your family members that sat for the painting will be, you know... painted. If the artist runs out of time and pencils in a stick figure of Grandma at the last minute, you're going to tell him to go fix it. The fact that the rest of the family is incredibly lifelike and detailed only goes to show that the artist is capable of doing much, much better than a stick figure of Grandma.

If the artist tells you that the Grandma stick figure is his artistic vision, and your insistence that he finish the painting is an affront to his artistic integrity, you might demand your money back.

That is the situation with Mass Effect 3. The issue isn't whether or not I like the ending, the issue is whether or not there actually is an ending, in the context of the rest of the game. The story line and narratives are carefully developed and the consistency maintained throughout three games, then at the end they just add something that doesn't make sense, doesn't fit the context, doesn't reflect the quality of the series overall.

Now, I didn't commission the game, and no one should ever change a consumer product based on my dissatisfaction. When more than half of respondents on every forum or poll are telling you that the ending is some half-assed thrown-together shit, though, maybe 'critics' like you need to get the hell out of the way and let BioWare have their do-over.

It's pretty clear at this point that the ending we got was a result more than anything of simply running out of time--EA had a release schedule that BioWare Edmonton had to abide by. If Casey Hudson and his team had been able to spend some more time with this game a lot of things would have been different, and I think most of us know that the end would have been one of them. This piece of shit does not reflect anyone's "artistic vision," it reflects someone's budget.

I want to see what the Mass Effect developers can come up with now that they've been given a little more time and chance to take a Mulligan on the ending of ME3. I don't have to like the ending for it to be good, but it does need to reflect the quality of the rest of the game and series.

In other words, the artist doesn't have to make Grandma beautiful, but he does need to actually paint Grandma.

 

[Reaper69lol]

MovieBob is still missing the point that BioWare didn't deliver on ANY of their promises. Thus customers were mislead, into buying something they thought would be one thing, but turned out to be something completely different and infested with plotholes.

 

[Yeager942]

So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.

Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.

Aren't we kind of above letting a few bad eggs define the whole group? Isn't that the entire point of the "Gamers aren't basement dwellers, don't let the few 12 year olds on xbox live define us" argument?" If Bob lets the few wackos define the Retake Group, then that's being a hypocritical.

I'm honestly shocked how little Bob has looked into this conflict. He's honestly one of my favorite contributors to the Escapist, but his ignorance in this matter is pretty appalling.