The Big Picture: Not Okay

[John Funk]

Overall, I like your points. There are certainly some points I dont see eye to eye on, mostly because realistically they won't change or aren't something that bad in the first place For example: you will not stop people from saying 'you got raped' in games. It sucks that it wont happen, but its just like people saying 'thats gay' for something stupid. And, for both cases, I dont see it as a swipe against rape victims or homosexuals, its just a word that has a stigma attached to it (which is unfortunate for 'gay', but not everyone is tolerant) thats used in conjunction with something not so pleasant. Is it bad? Yes. Does it tear us down as a culture? Yes. Will it change? Unfortunately, no.

Not with that attitude, it won't. If people accept "Oh, that's just how it is," then... no, it won't.

If you see someone use "OH MAN HE JUST GOT *RAPED*" or "quit being so GAY dude," tell them to stop. Have some courage.

 

[BlackFrost]

Hey! Great episode as always, I don't see way people will disagree with you, what you say is true and it needs to be stop.

 

[scw55]

Being a dick. Horrible. Unpleasant. Aggressive and insulting is what's core of the HoN/LoL/DotA community, and I fully believe if those aspects were abolished it will be for the best.

I don't think anyone agrees with "fat hairy pig"'s philosophy.

So easy to jump on the hate band wagon. I speak truth however.

(I haven't been exposed to the LoL community as much as DotA/HoN so I may have a biased perspective)

 

[lord canti]

When me and my friends get together to hang out together we do say racist and sexist things to each other. However we are all completely comfortable with this because we know what will offend us and what wont.

 

[illas]

I agreed with Bob right up to the point of using "rape" as a descriptor.

In the standard gaming scenario, "rape" is not being used to describe what literally happened. Typically, is being used hyperbolically to describe the incident eg: in the case of a vicious, unjustifiable, penetrative assault. Criticising it on this level seems odd, since we don't complain about using "killed", "owned", "butchered" or "destroyed" in such a circumstance (and if one is interpreting it literally, murder is equally - if not more - serious than rape).

Furthermore, rape is not an intrinsically female-victim issue either. I would go as far as to suggest that one guy saying "I raped you" to another guy to be more a homosexual threat characterized by desires of non-gender-specific sexual dominance than a product of male-on-female rape being glamorised.


The point about free speech was brilliant though, most Americans (it seems) would do well to heed that. Most noticeably, the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to say whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that they aren't responsible for it.

 

[Strain42]

I still refer to things as "gay" in a negative sense, but only because it has become the colloquial norm. I would never speak ill of gay people, or try to argue against what is clearly someone's natural, sexual tendencies.

There's a line from comedian, Nick Swardson, that I always think about when something like this comes up. (I'm paraphrasing here)

"I don't use it to insult anyone, I don't use it as a negative word but...some stuff is just gay. How else am I supposed to describe a fanny pack?"

I personally don't use gay in my vocabulary, because if I do need to attach an adjective to express negativity, I have a lot of arrows in my quiver I can use, and be more accurate about it as well.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

Then why hasn't there been a FemBob yet in your TGO series?

Introducing: The Game Estra-Thinker...The Game Lady-Thinker...That's all I've got but it could be coming. Can't wait to see more Necro-Thinker.

---

Great video Bob: Honestly, I've never heard of that show...to promote Street Fighter X Tekken I mean. Hearing about the views expressed by that person whose name I've already forgotten though is enough to make me embarrassed to call myself a Gamer (which I still try not to do, preferring to call myself Game Player). Granted I'm not even a part of the fighting game community but I'd be embarrassed and shamed by what's-his-name's views; apology or not. Also, how is Starcraft or, playing Starcraft an insult?

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

This is probably the most pissed off I've ever heard movie bob sound; I don't blame him, either, as I've said the exact same thing on more than one occasion over the last few years. I remember calling some friends out on throwing the word rape around more casually than I was comfortable with and they looked at me like I grew a second head.

Seriously, nerd culture based sexism is something I would seriously like to see go away. Forever.

using the word rape to mean lose doesn't equate to sexism

 

[cahtush]

Im glad the FGC is doing such a fine job of keeping themself seperet from the E-Sports community.

 

[darthotaku]

This isn't only a problem with video games, its a problem in real life as well. Just look at that whole "slut" fiasco Rush Limbaugh started. It disgusts me that in this day and age such bigotry is still possible.
What we really need to see is a female game character that is an actually decent role model. we need a character that I would not be terrified if my niece said she wanted to be like.

here's a though for the design and story setting: an average girl in a sweater and loose fitting (but not baggy) jeans that don't show off her underwear. she's in a strange paralelle universe being attacked by wierd monsters and she has to run and gun her way to safety, which eventually ends with her killing the demonic overlord. its RE4 style combat and all of the monsters are hyper sexualized in a gross way, with the males being massive steroid injected freaks and the females running the gambit from massive breasted monstrosities to skeletal freaks in skimpy dresses.
the game serves as a metephor for her overcoming peer pressure and sexualized media images through determination and intelligence, while other named characters around her fall victim to the monsters.
thats the game I want to see, and if done right it could show everyone that a female lead doesn't need to be half naked to be interesting.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

But where I get nervous is where Bob seems to be saying that there is no private place for attitudes or ideas that the general public finds offensive, only the public sphere where it comes right out of the gate to get immediately pelted with fruit for its intrinsic wrongness.

That idea disturbs me. I know we're increasingly living in a culture where privacy is a thing of the past. And certainly if you're doing something like a show or a podcast, you take the good of creating something for public consumption with the bad. Likewise, for example, if you're an employer, you better pay attention to laws about discrimination. The availability of fair workplaces where people don't feel threatened or harassed is an issue that effects us all, and I think as a society we're better for strong laws that protect us that way.

But I don't see the harm of Mac users quietly echoing to each other the superiority of users of their chosen platform, or "furries" sharing fantasies with one another, to give two examples (neither of which include me), despite the fact that expression of those ideas in the public sphere might get those who express them treated with derision and disgust.

Shorthand to be later misinterpreted: I see the problem with expressing a bad attitude in public as though the public should accept and mainstream that attitude. I'm concerned with that form of indignation, however righteous, being carried over into areas where people who may recognize their attitudes and ideas are "niche" want to share them with each other.

My thoughts exactly, a person should have the right to express unpopular opinions in a private setting.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

It isn't okay to enjoy your hobby while degrading women and making other members of your hobby look like dicks who you assume share your messed-up view of the world.

Why should people have to censor themselves when their playing things like Xbox live? Last I checked, you can mute people

 

[GeorgW]

Absolutely brilliant! You make me proud to be a gamer, Bob. Please make more of these not-fun shows, they're always awesome to be able to link to when someone's being an asshole.

 

[Callate]

Well, he clearly stated that free speech allows you to say what you want. However, you must be ready for the consequences. If you say something overtly racist, you will be called on it. If you say something homophobic (looking at you Santorum) then you'll be challenged. You CAN say what you want but if it is stupid or hurtful, you are going to see a backlash.

Beyond that, I can't think of a single reason to hold onto outdated attitudes that would cause such hateful things to be spewed. I still refer to things as "gay" in a negative sense, but only because it has become the colloquial norm. I would never speak ill of gay people, or try to argue against what is clearly someone's natural, sexual tendencies.

Can anyone give me a good reason why racist, sexist, or homophobic ideas or attitudes should be given a safe haven?

As for your tangent about furries and Mac users, that seems wholly unrelated to the issue at hand.

A lot of the attitudes that we now consider sexist or racist or homophobic were pretty close to the mainstream not all that long ago. To be clear, I'm not sorry to see those attitudes go. But I'm less than confident that "Thinking this makes you a terrible person, get back in the closet", so to speak, is an attitude that is effective in producing change. It may eventually. But in the meantime, it seems as likely to create a chain reaction of backlash after backlash between two groups who think differently, giving each plenty of opportunity to beat their chests and describe themselves as oppressed martyrs or rebels against tyranny. Nor am I entirely confident that the majority always refines emotionally charged ideas into moral gold.

There may come a time when an idea simply has to be destroyed. When we recognize it has no place in the society we visualize, it's too dangerous, too poisonous. But I cannot stress enough that I don't think that should ever be our first option.

I believe in many cases we're more likely to make those we oppose recognize our underlying humanity and desire to change themselves by explaining how what they believe touches upon where we come from. We lose so much when we give up both the attempt to understand someone else's perspective and trying to make them understand our own. That cannot begin with "Your ideas are repellent and morally hideous, go on, I'm listening."

I suspect almost everyone who writes in these forums is part of at least one group whose point of view someone loud at some point passionately wished would just go away because they're so icky, even if that group was only gamers themselves. How badly do we want to build a weapon that's entirely likely to come back and hit us in the face sooner or later? Just because we're on one side of the weapon now?

 

[MovieBob]

A lot of the attitudes that we now consider sexist or racist or homophobic were pretty close to the mainstream not all that long ago. To be clear, I'm not sorry to see those attitudes go. But I'm less than confident that "Thinking this makes you a terrible person, get back in the closet", so to speak, is an attitude that is effective in producing change. It may eventually. But in the meantime, it seems as likely to create a chain reaction of backlash after backlash between two groups who think differently, giving each plenty of opportunity to beat their chests and describe themselves as oppressed martyrs or rebels against tyranny. Nor am I entirely confident that the majority always refines emotionally charged ideas into moral gold.

There may come a time when an idea simply has to be destroyed. When we recognize it has no place in the society we visualize, it's too dangerous, too poisonous. But I cannot stress enough that I don't think that should ever be our first option.

I believe in many cases we're more likely to make those we oppose recognize our underlying humanity and desire to change themselves by explaining how what they believe touches upon where we come from. We lose so much when we give up both the attempt to understand someone else's perspective and trying to make them understand our own. That cannot begin with "Your ideas are repellent and morally hideous, go on, I'm listening."

I suspect almost everyone who writes in these forums is part of at least one group whose point of view someone loud at some point passionately wished would just go away because they're so icky, even if that group was only gamers themselves. How badly do we want to build a weapon that's entirely likely to come back and hit us in the face sooner or later? Just because we're on one side of the weapon now?

I really don't think that's what bob was saying, though. Like he stated, you have the right to say what you want. You also have to be aware of what comes next.

If I say that all gays should be killed, then people are going to take issue with that statement.. and rightfully so. He's not saying you can't make insensitive comments to your buddies in your basement, but if one of them doesn't share your views.. then once again, you run the risk of getting called on it. I think you took him a bit too literally in that sense. "That's just how the fighting game community is.." is not an excuse for saying something hateful and stupid.

 

[portal_cat]

Thanks for bringing this topic up bob. I'm just glad I haven't met anyone like that while I've been playing video games.

 

[Bloodtrozorx]

First: Bob if you could hear this I'm doing a slow clap. Thank you for that.
Second: Aris Bakhtanians is a waste of space and deserves all of this. Its a shame that he is now a very public face of gaming and we'll all suffer for this.

 

[Unfire]

I have a serious question, because when I was growing up in the same state as Bob, "fag" was the most common non-seven-list-of-dirty-words insult there was. I've stopped using it of course, for almost 20 years, but in my cathartic moments of video game violence, I don't keep track of the swears that I say with anger (why I don't use a mic in any kind of console game, except with friends). I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, but I know I myself use video games to vent my anger as a release after sitting in a cube for 8 hours. Basically I'm asking if my verbal diarrhea, none of which is nice, these "ism" words come out, does that count as these "isms"?

 

[PingoBlack]

I only find one thing today really poor ...

Big Picture gets a small banner and a mention for such a worthwhile topic, while the review of latest EA thing gets front and center.

 

[John Funk]

I agreed with Bob right up to the point of using "rape" as a descriptor.

In the standard gaming scenario, "rape" is not being used to describe what literally happened. Typically, is being used hyperbolically to describe the incident eg: in the case of a vicious, unjustifiable, penetrative assault. Criticising it on this level seems odd, since we don't complain about using "killed", "owned", "butchered" or "destroyed" in such a circumstance (and if one is interpreting it literally, murder is equally - if not more - serious than rape).

Furthermore, rape is not an intrinsically female-victim issue either. I would go as far as to suggest that one guy saying "I raped you" to another guy to be more a homosexual threat characterized by desires of non-gender-specific sexual dominance than a product of male-on-female rape being glamorised.


The point about free speech was brilliant though, most Americans (it seems) would do well to heed that. Most noticeably, the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to say whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that they aren't responsible for it.

Doesn't matter. It should stop.