The Big Picture: Not Okay

Eri

The Light of Dawn
Feb 21, 2009
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The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller said:
I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.
And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.
 

thisbymaster

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Sep 10, 2008
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The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
 

thomaskattus

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Dec 15, 2011
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Thank you Bob for calling out gaming culture once again. I am definitely sharing this video around so folks can hear this really awesome message.
 

zedel

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Sep 16, 2010
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While videos like this shouldn't have to exist, we live in a very unkind world in which they have become necessary. This was definitely my favorite of your recent episodes. Thank you for speaking out against misogyny Bob! :)
 

Dascylus

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May 22, 2010
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Found clip on Youtube, 13 minutes long, skipped through it... This guy is an idiot.

No one comment seemed too over the top (I didn't watch the whole thing) and I'm sure the guy thought he was being funny but the sheer non-stop nature of his persistent remarks clearly took it all too far.

My guess, he thought he was being funny and flirtatious and as he clearly has poor social skills regarding women it failed bad.

General rule for any guys out there with similar issues... When in doubt speak to her exactly as you would to any guy.
When I ask a guy about the size of his cock I am clearly joking, if I then say "But dude, seriously, how big is it?" then my friends are gonna start looking at me funny.
If I say to a girl (in the right context) how big are your boobs and... Actually, I have never said that to a woman and I actually cannot think of an appropriate time to ask that outside of clothes shopping.

In short, 21st century people. Times are a changin.
 

Emergent System

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Feb 27, 2010
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Could see the theme of this episode coming from a mile away when I read the title. It's not surprising that a guy who thinks that a movie where dozens of men murder each other is mysogynistic because it features a scene where a woman is treated as a sex object (because being treated as a sex object is much worse than being treated as a death object) thinks that this is NOT OKAY (but mass murder is presumably okay in his eyes, if you apply that logic consistently).

As is usually for hypersensitive types like this, verbal abuse in the form of sexism, racism, or homophobia is treated as exceptionally horrible; as if these were somehow exceptions rather than the norm for a community that abuses everyone for everything, usually much worse ones than the aforementioned three.

If he just wanted to complain about how some parts of the community - the parts he is a mmeber of, apparently - are thuroughly abuse this way then that's fine, but pretending like the abuse of these groups is something especially horrible is an inherently discriminatory approach to take in itself, even against the group it's arguing on the behalf of, heavily implying as it does that the members of those groups are in more need of protection than "normal" people.

The "it's not okay to use rape as a casual synonym for defeat" is particularily pathetic an emotional appeal. "Rape = no", "murder = yes" shows such a shocking lack of perspective and consistency that it's hard to imagine he's capable of empathizing with other people, or thinking critically, at all, rather than just regurgitating pop culture sentationalism. As is the norm for those who champion the position he's taken, he completely loses his ability to distinguish fantasy from reality the second sex, gender, and race is mentioned.

Ironic that he makes without irony an appeal to "having a serious conversation", when this entire video was nothing close to an attempt at a serious conversation, presenting a perspective so far from nuanced that it cearly made no attempt at being so.
 

Scars Unseen

^ ^ v v < > < > B A
May 7, 2009
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As soon as you said the term "sexism," I immediately groaned, thinking we were in for one of those episodes(shockingly, I don't agree with everything you say, or at least the way you present your stance). And then... you followed that up with a well reasoned argument bereft of your usual vitriol that I find so distasteful. Good topic, and a good episode, Bob.
 

Jackhorse

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Jul 4, 2010
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I... I don't know where I stand. I'm a gamer and have never thrown discrimination like this about (perhaps because my few forays into voice chat so far have been failed attempts to warn people about spys in TF2) but I'm not sure what should be done or if indeed anything should be done about the 'bad apples'.
Is it our place to deal with the despicable within our community any more than those who read books or watch films should challenge other moviegoers or bookworms? Is our hobby a special case by way of its interactive nature? Because in a multiplayer match we are all co-operating to create the experience does it arise from this that we have a special responsibility to prune our culture? Really in all these spheres should what community to belong to matter, shouldn't we just be against the narrow minded as a society? Frankly I don't know, maybe it just needs a little more reflection.
Are we only to challenge these people or should they be excluded from gaming? You can only really be moral in your own actions, you can't make someone moral by the wrong end of a sword (or banhammer) so it only would make sense to exclude them so that no one might be offended. And if we do away with their right to speak their mind (no matter how bigoted) are we not assuming that we are incontravertibly right before hearing a word out of their mouths, any and all matters should be open to discussion and debate no matter how unpalatable.
But if we allow them to jibe and harass then many girls may choose to remain anonymous or even leave the community, easily a greater loss then the sexists.

I don't know Escapist, I just don't know. You tell me. (politely)

TL:DR a) Is it our place to deal with sexists
b) What should be done?
c) I have a theosaurus.
 

scott91575

New member
Jun 8, 2009
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Bob,

You should do a big picture on just free speech. I get so tired of hearing people using the words "free speech" as if it protects their speech from any ramifications. Not does it only deal with how the government can criminally prosecute you (this annoys me when people think being banned from a forum/post deleted is against their free speech), but it also cannot infringe on other rights. So many people are completely ignorant as to what free speech actually means (at least in the US 1st Amendment context).
 

LordLundar

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Apr 6, 2004
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Eri said:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller said:
I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.
And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.
The problem with this theory is context. When playing a game where killing is a part of the game, saying "I just killed you" is an observational statement of the situation. Certainly there are other options like killing your character and such but in a game where killing is the point, equating it to a capital crime is far fetched.

Rape on the other hand has always equated to the unwilling forceful domination of another person and historically is meant in a sexual manner. That does not equate to what's going on in most games and when in the wrong group has ugly results. I have NEVER seen anyone who actually was raped respond well to hearing that, male or female. There are better options (wafflestomped is a personal preference) and the less the term "rape " is used, he happier I'll be.
 

scott91575

New member
Jun 8, 2009
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LordLundar said:
Eri said:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller said:
I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.
And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.
The problem with this theory is context. When playing a game where killing is a part of the game, saying "I just killed you" is an observational statement of the situation. Certainly there are other options like killing your character and such but in a game where killing is the point, equating it to a capital crime is far fetched.

Rape on the other hand has always equated to the unwilling forceful domination of another person and historically is meant in a sexual manner. That does not equate to what's going on in most games and when in the wrong group has ugly results. I have NEVER seen anyone who actually was raped respond well to hearing that, male or female. There are better options (wafflestomped is a personal preference) and the less the term "rape " is used, he happier I'll be.
what about all the poor people that have been wafflestomped? Won't someone think of the wafflestomp victims?!?!
 

grigjd3

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Mar 4, 2011
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@thisbymaster,

Not all ideas are equally valid. The idea that I can turn into a mushroom and float off to wonderland is not nearly as valid as the concept of, say, gravity. There is absolutely nothing that says I should respect all ideas equally and given the choices, I find it fine to condemn reprehensible behavior. Personally, if people talk like that in my house, I kick them out.
 

PotatoeMan

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Jun 11, 2011
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thisbymaster said:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
I agree and I say the reason this is so common is that people are trying to annoy their opponent and when people can speak freely they will say things you don't agree with or are unacceptable to your beliefs. You could say this is a kickback against the PC culture we live in where people can't say offensive things no matter the context or situation. It's the internet grow thicker skin.

People also apply their own beliefs to these things for example I have heard female colleagues say ?all men are bastards? around male friends and colleagues but I have never heard any male friends or colleagues or friends say ?all women are bitches? around female colleagues or friends. I?m not saying it doesn?t happen or that it is acceptable in real life. Male bashing is more socially acceptable than female bashing. This is probably down to the fact that men are less likely to challenge a woman on something like this, to be honest it doesn?t bother me except for the double standard.
 

person427

New member
May 28, 2009
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Ugh. This had to be said, yes, but it was said in the wrong place. The Escapist is (mostly) made up of a mature community and chances are the people who really need to see this video won't. The only way to fix this is to spread the video. Hurry, we must spread it!
 

Epiku

New member
Sep 11, 2010
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Thank you, Bob! Just.. thank you!
I had heard about this from the forums and, I.. I had to stop reading it part way through..

I hope Bakhtanians' apology is sincere. A part of me just.. doesn't want to believe people genuinely say most of the stuff they say over the internet.

The fighting genre is one of the genres I first learned when my uncle and my sister showed me games.
I really have only played with my family and a few close friends, and I have yet to really try online.

Seeing this, and the other comments, maybe I should avoid that, or at least, just not have my mic set up.
I don't understand "trash talking," anyways... o.o

Still.. thank you.
 

him over there

New member
Dec 17, 2011
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thisbymaster said:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
So you are saying that instead of being entitled to not be offended and kick people out we are all entitled to name call back those who name called us? Mutual Retaliation instead of proactive removal of those with almost seemingly universal unpopular or rude opinions? If so I think that I need to figure out how your brain works because I need to get in on it.
 

Canadish

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Jul 15, 2010
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PotatoeMan said:
thisbymaster said:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
I agree and I say the reason this is so common is that people are trying to annoy their opponent and when people can speak freely they will say things you don't agree with or are unacceptable to your beliefs. You could say this is a kickback against the PC culture we live in where people can't say offensive things no matter the context or situation. It's the internet grow thicker skin.

People also apply their own beliefs to these things for example I have heard female colleagues say ?all men are bastards? around male friends and colleagues but I have never heard any male friends or colleagues or friends say ?all women are bitches? around female colleagues or friends. I?m not saying it doesn?t happen or that it is acceptable in real life. Male bashing is more socially acceptable than female bashing. This is probably down to the fact that men are less likely to challenge a woman on something like this, to be honest it doesn?t bother me except for the double standard.
Can't argue this.

I'd never dream of generalizing all women and speaking to them in such a way, because of how I was brought up. It's just wrong to do that to any group, for obvious reasons.

Meanwhile however, I'm getting constantly told "ALL MEN ARE BASTARDS" by my girlfriend's drunken friend whenever a group of us all go out for the evening and this is considered acceptable.
As the above poster, it doesn't make me angry. But the clear double standard does.

EDIT: Thinking on, one last point. As much as I agree with Bob that these people are wrong in this case...
That does not make them objectively wrong. It's not our place to tell people how to speak and what they are allowed and not allowed to say. No law changes that in my mind.
It's our job to reason with them. To try show them WHY they are wrong. To try help them understand others point of view.
Not to threaten them to agree with our opinion under threat of financial ruin/jail.