what about all the poor people that have been wafflestomped? Won't someone think of the wafflestomp victims?!?!LordLundar said:
The Big Picture: Not Okay
- Thread starter MovieBob
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@thisbymaster,
Not all ideas are equally valid. The idea that I can turn into a mushroom and float off to wonderland is not nearly as valid as the concept of, say, gravity. There is absolutely nothing that says I should respect all ideas equally and given the choices, I find it fine to condemn reprehensible behavior. Personally, if people talk like that in my house, I kick them out.
Not all ideas are equally valid. The idea that I can turn into a mushroom and float off to wonderland is not nearly as valid as the concept of, say, gravity. There is absolutely nothing that says I should respect all ideas equally and given the choices, I find it fine to condemn reprehensible behavior. Personally, if people talk like that in my house, I kick them out.
I agree and I say the reason this is so common is that people are trying to annoy their opponent and when people can speak freely they will say things you don't agree with or are unacceptable to your beliefs. You could say this is a kickback against the PC culture we live in where people can't say offensive things no matter the context or situation. It's the internet grow thicker skin.thisbymaster said:
People also apply their own beliefs to these things for example I have heard female colleagues say ?all men are bastards? around male friends and colleagues but I have never heard any male friends or colleagues or friends say ?all women are bitches? around female colleagues or friends. I?m not saying it doesn?t happen or that it is acceptable in real life. Male bashing is more socially acceptable than female bashing. This is probably down to the fact that men are less likely to challenge a woman on something like this, to be honest it doesn?t bother me except for the double standard.
Ugh. This had to be said, yes, but it was said in the wrong place. The Escapist is (mostly) made up of a mature community and chances are the people who really need to see this video won't. The only way to fix this is to spread the video. Hurry, we must spread it!
Thank you, Bob! Just.. thank you!
I had heard about this from the forums and, I.. I had to stop reading it part way through..
I hope Bakhtanians' apology is sincere. A part of me just.. doesn't want to believe people genuinely say most of the stuff they say over the internet.
The fighting genre is one of the genres I first learned when my uncle and my sister showed me games.
I really have only played with my family and a few close friends, and I have yet to really try online.
Seeing this, and the other comments, maybe I should avoid that, or at least, just not have my mic set up.
I don't understand "trash talking," anyways... o.o
Still.. thank you.
I had heard about this from the forums and, I.. I had to stop reading it part way through..
I hope Bakhtanians' apology is sincere. A part of me just.. doesn't want to believe people genuinely say most of the stuff they say over the internet.
The fighting genre is one of the genres I first learned when my uncle and my sister showed me games.
I really have only played with my family and a few close friends, and I have yet to really try online.
Seeing this, and the other comments, maybe I should avoid that, or at least, just not have my mic set up.
I don't understand "trash talking," anyways... o.o
Still.. thank you.
So you are saying that instead of being entitled to not be offended and kick people out we are all entitled to name call back those who name called us? Mutual Retaliation instead of proactive removal of those with almost seemingly universal unpopular or rude opinions? If so I think that I need to figure out how your brain works because I need to get in on it.thisbymaster said:
Can't argue this.PotatoeMan said:
I'd never dream of generalizing all women and speaking to them in such a way, because of how I was brought up. It's just wrong to do that to any group, for obvious reasons.
Meanwhile however, I'm getting constantly told "ALL MEN ARE BASTARDS" by my girlfriend's drunken friend whenever a group of us all go out for the evening and this is considered acceptable.
As the above poster, it doesn't make me angry. But the clear double standard does.
EDIT: Thinking on, one last point. As much as I agree with Bob that these people are wrong in this case...
That does not make them objectively wrong. It's not our place to tell people how to speak and what they are allowed and not allowed to say. No law changes that in my mind.
It's our job to reason with them. To try show them WHY they are wrong. To try help them understand others point of view.
Not to threaten them to agree with our opinion under threat of financial ruin/jail.
Gee... So let me get this straight... When I say "Ha! Ha! I just tore out your throat!" after I knife someone in Battlefield 3, it's almost as bad as saying I raped someone? I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Tearing out someone's throat with a big-ass knife is perfectly socially acceptable, you just better not make it into a sexual thing.Eri said:
People want to object to what language you use when you simulate killing someone. F-n' Hilarious.
OT: What's your point Bob? You don't approve of people who use sexist/bigoted language? Someone get him a freaking metal for controversy. I honestly don't understand what he's suggesting, I'm pretty sure everyone who uses that type of language is already aware of how socially unacceptable it is, which is why they only use it anonymously. So what is Bob suggesting we do about it?
I don't think anyone has actually made the argument that it's OKAY just because it's an entrenched practice. I think the argument is that because it's an entrenched practice there isn't much you can do to stop it, other than implementing something controversial like the system that Blizzard tried to use that forced people to use their real names. Is that what Bob is suggesting? Or does he just want to sit around a drum circle, sing Kumbaya, and give lectures over the internet that the target audience isn't going to listen to?
I'm strongly against all the nitpicky 'sexist' things that are being rammed into our consciousness. Like it was a thing here in Britain were you'd get told off in public buildings for saying things along the lines of 'hey guys' and other phrases that would otherwise not include women in it when there was a women present. I'm so glad that got shot down quicker than a Guantanamo escapee. It's just utterly stupid and pointless, and a waste of time. And all it does is help sexism become such a joke topic.
But THIS is a perfect example of what types of sexism needs to be addressed.
Although I don't agree with the not okay using 'rape' as synonymous with getting beat. Drunk people say 'I'm slaughtered' which infers they were cut down and mutilated. Guys who hate work will say that 'work was hell' as if to infer that everyone they came into contact with was a tortured soul that had been sentenced to damnation for all eternity. And that's not to mention that they hate work. They harbor such a deep loathing for it, and anything involved that they hate something.
It's just a small mutation of the English language I suppose. I dunno, i'm sure other people's opinions will be different.
But THIS is a perfect example of what types of sexism needs to be addressed.
Although I don't agree with the not okay using 'rape' as synonymous with getting beat. Drunk people say 'I'm slaughtered' which infers they were cut down and mutilated. Guys who hate work will say that 'work was hell' as if to infer that everyone they came into contact with was a tortured soul that had been sentenced to damnation for all eternity. And that's not to mention that they hate work. They harbor such a deep loathing for it, and anything involved that they hate something.
It's just a small mutation of the English language I suppose. I dunno, i'm sure other people's opinions will be different.
The Internet is a big place. I'm a fan of ignoring shit you don't like. Twenty-motherfucking-twelve and people are still bitching about men being as sexist when they talk to other men?
It is simple, I may not agree with what you have to say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.him over there said:
Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings.
Some of the views expressed in this video hurt me on a deep emotional level. If it was just one man's views then I wouldn't give it much thought since mistakes happen and it's often very hard to see, admit and correct one's own mistake. However, the delusion in question seems to have spread over large portions of humanity, including some of our best and brightest (Movie Bob being an example for both), and I am starting to feel like a the last sane guy in the asylum.
The mistake I am talking about is:
Unlike saying proven objective truths (for example "Randomly attacking people on the street will not make you popular among the police officers."), expressing purely subjective opinions does not obligate other people to agree with you (for example, I believe that the answer to most of philosophical question can be found in one or more episodes of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', but I do not think that the fact Stanford didn't include that show in their curriculum makes Stanford's philosophy program inadequate.)
So far, I am sure that most of you are on board with me. However, for reasons that are entirely mysterious to me, most people believe that, if they wish it REALLY hard, their subjective opinions will MAGICALLY BECOME OBJECTIVE TRUTHS! Aalakazam!
For the betterment of the human race, I present you with a short list of things that DO NOT transmogrify your opinions into objective truths:
1. Shouting.
2. The fact that YOU really believe it to be true, despite the lack of conclusive evidence (unless you are being played by Kevin Costner).
3. The fact that you find the opposing opinion offensive does not make you right, it makes you small-minded (or else every racist, homophobe or fanatic of any kind would be a moral authority by virtue of insanity).
4. Equating the act of expressing an opinion that you disagree with or using an expression that you dislike (but which in itself is not meant as an actual threat against the life or well-being of another person) with an act of aggression does not make you extra sensitive; it makes you insane. (this seems to be stupidity du jour these days. As a method of reality check, I invite all of you 'words can hurt just as bad' people to go to find a rape victim and say to him/her: "What happened to you is terrible. It is just as bad as using 'rape' as a casual synonym for defeat.")
People do not need your permission to have or to express an opinion. If you think that they are wrong - challenge them. If you know them to be logically incorrect - prove it. If you can't but you are still bothered that they are allowed to freely speak their mind -
THEN
GROW
THE
*CENSORED FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THIS WORD EXISTS*
UP!!!
ADDED on 3.7.2012. 9.18h
5. The fact that many people share your opinion does not prove your opinion to an objective truth (if you disagree, then please prove me wrong. Gather a herd of people who also don't believe me and win the lottery 10 times in a row by making everyone share your belief that you are going to win.
Some of the views expressed in this video hurt me on a deep emotional level. If it was just one man's views then I wouldn't give it much thought since mistakes happen and it's often very hard to see, admit and correct one's own mistake. However, the delusion in question seems to have spread over large portions of humanity, including some of our best and brightest (Movie Bob being an example for both), and I am starting to feel like a the last sane guy in the asylum.
The mistake I am talking about is:
Unlike saying proven objective truths (for example "Randomly attacking people on the street will not make you popular among the police officers."), expressing purely subjective opinions does not obligate other people to agree with you (for example, I believe that the answer to most of philosophical question can be found in one or more episodes of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', but I do not think that the fact Stanford didn't include that show in their curriculum makes Stanford's philosophy program inadequate.)
So far, I am sure that most of you are on board with me. However, for reasons that are entirely mysterious to me, most people believe that, if they wish it REALLY hard, their subjective opinions will MAGICALLY BECOME OBJECTIVE TRUTHS! Aalakazam!
For the betterment of the human race, I present you with a short list of things that DO NOT transmogrify your opinions into objective truths:
1. Shouting.
2. The fact that YOU really believe it to be true, despite the lack of conclusive evidence (unless you are being played by Kevin Costner).
3. The fact that you find the opposing opinion offensive does not make you right, it makes you small-minded (or else every racist, homophobe or fanatic of any kind would be a moral authority by virtue of insanity).
4. Equating the act of expressing an opinion that you disagree with or using an expression that you dislike (but which in itself is not meant as an actual threat against the life or well-being of another person) with an act of aggression does not make you extra sensitive; it makes you insane. (this seems to be stupidity du jour these days. As a method of reality check, I invite all of you 'words can hurt just as bad' people to go to find a rape victim and say to him/her: "What happened to you is terrible. It is just as bad as using 'rape' as a casual synonym for defeat.")
People do not need your permission to have or to express an opinion. If you think that they are wrong - challenge them. If you know them to be logically incorrect - prove it. If you can't but you are still bothered that they are allowed to freely speak their mind -
THEN
GROW
THE
*CENSORED FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THIS WORD EXISTS*
UP!!!
ADDED on 3.7.2012. 9.18h
5. The fact that many people share your opinion does not prove your opinion to an objective truth (if you disagree, then please prove me wrong. Gather a herd of people who also don't believe me and win the lottery 10 times in a row by making everyone share your belief that you are going to win.
I was getting tired of seeing a bunch of columns, videos etc. about this incident, then I remembered that unless there was a (perhaps disproportionate) response to every instance of prejudice in nerd culture, assholes like Aris won't get it through their thick heads that no, it's not okay. Bob's response was particularly well made.
I find that the main problem with gaming subculture isn't so much that it's racist/sexist/whatever, but that it hates change and reasonable argument. People will defend sexual harassment in the same way that they'll defend that overpowered classes shouldn't be changed - out of an emotional outset that equals a small part of the experience with the whole, without any care or attention for The Big Picture?. This kind of environment will foster sickening viewpoints like those the same way a damp, dark closed fosters moss.
Like moss, the only thing to do against it is to put it out into the sun. Bring those problems into full view and let everyone know that it's bad until it's gone. Preach on, brothers and sisters.
I find that the main problem with gaming subculture isn't so much that it's racist/sexist/whatever, but that it hates change and reasonable argument. People will defend sexual harassment in the same way that they'll defend that overpowered classes shouldn't be changed - out of an emotional outset that equals a small part of the experience with the whole, without any care or attention for The Big Picture?. This kind of environment will foster sickening viewpoints like those the same way a damp, dark closed fosters moss.
Like moss, the only thing to do against it is to put it out into the sun. Bring those problems into full view and let everyone know that it's bad until it's gone. Preach on, brothers and sisters.
Good to know there are thick skinned people like you here. I always told myself that tolerance is a two way street. A person who is racist, a homophobe, misogynist or what have you can keep those thoughts, they can say those thoughts, they can make people angry with those thoughts and words. The second they hurt people (being offended is not hurting people by the way) you can punish them, but you can't punish them for thinking or saying them because then you're persecuting them for what they think.You don't get to stop them, you just get to make them mad back.thisbymaster said:
I DO like it when Bob gets into deeper subjects, or more controversial topics. I also like it when he has fun with topics, especially the comic book episodes. I don't like his attempts at humor, though, they all pretty much suck. Other than that, MovieBob rocks!
As to the subject matter, it's not gaming-related, but I go to a forum where people suffer from abuse and discrimination (at least some of them do, anyway) and that forum is a safe haven for then to just relax, make friends, and talking about controversial issues head-on and not be afraid to address controversial issues in stuff they really like.
The forum? Equestria Daily. The controversial stuff? Can be anything, really, but sometimes it's even the stuff that gathered us there in the first place: My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.
http://www.equestriaforums.com/
Don't think a little girl's show CAN be controversial?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2CRjPO73Dg
FYI, this was a censored scene available on iTunes, because the gray pegasus was deemed offensive to those who had mentally disabled friends and family. Yeah. :/
So yeah, anti-intellectual discussion, and disrespectful behavior is pretty much not welcome there, and I, for one, am glad for that.
As to the subject matter, it's not gaming-related, but I go to a forum where people suffer from abuse and discrimination (at least some of them do, anyway) and that forum is a safe haven for then to just relax, make friends, and talking about controversial issues head-on and not be afraid to address controversial issues in stuff they really like.
The forum? Equestria Daily. The controversial stuff? Can be anything, really, but sometimes it's even the stuff that gathered us there in the first place: My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.
http://www.equestriaforums.com/
Don't think a little girl's show CAN be controversial?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2CRjPO73Dg
FYI, this was a censored scene available on iTunes, because the gray pegasus was deemed offensive to those who had mentally disabled friends and family. Yeah. :/
So yeah, anti-intellectual discussion, and disrespectful behavior is pretty much not welcome there, and I, for one, am glad for that.
Let's compare and contrast a little, shall we?
Case 1) Rush Limbaugh, 'Merican talk radio hound who routinely compares giving females equal standing in culture to the Nazi regime, made some disparaging remarks about a female law school student arguing before Congress for the medical and financial needs for birth control to be covered by health insurance programs. An apology was issued after his sponsors started walking out. The response from his contemporaries has been universally "Why did he have to use those words?"
Case 2) Bakhtanian uses language waaaaaaaaay more emotionally scarring than that of a blowhard radio personality towards someone he's supposed to be helping, then proceeds to say that his words are valid because, well, everyone else has been doing this for years now. An apology was issued after he had been called out on his offensive behavior by various gaming news sites. The response from his contemporaries has been a mix between "Why is this even an issue?" and "You got a problem with this, go play something else."
I guess the part that really puzzles me in this whole matter is this: The gaming industry has built itself around regular advances in technology. Most of the critically acclaimed titles from the past three to five years have been challenging the conventional notions of what should be expected when you pick up a controller. So why do we allow ourselves to not only enshrine, but vigorously defend a part of the surrounding culture? What sort of cognitive disconnect is required to demand regular changes in the formula from Capcom's fighting games, and then antagonize anyone who spots room for improvement in the surrounding community?
Gaming is built on change. Why is the gaming fandom intent on resisting change?
Case 1) Rush Limbaugh, 'Merican talk radio hound who routinely compares giving females equal standing in culture to the Nazi regime, made some disparaging remarks about a female law school student arguing before Congress for the medical and financial needs for birth control to be covered by health insurance programs. An apology was issued after his sponsors started walking out. The response from his contemporaries has been universally "Why did he have to use those words?"
Case 2) Bakhtanian uses language waaaaaaaaay more emotionally scarring than that of a blowhard radio personality towards someone he's supposed to be helping, then proceeds to say that his words are valid because, well, everyone else has been doing this for years now. An apology was issued after he had been called out on his offensive behavior by various gaming news sites. The response from his contemporaries has been a mix between "Why is this even an issue?" and "You got a problem with this, go play something else."
I guess the part that really puzzles me in this whole matter is this: The gaming industry has built itself around regular advances in technology. Most of the critically acclaimed titles from the past three to five years have been challenging the conventional notions of what should be expected when you pick up a controller. So why do we allow ourselves to not only enshrine, but vigorously defend a part of the surrounding culture? What sort of cognitive disconnect is required to demand regular changes in the formula from Capcom's fighting games, and then antagonize anyone who spots room for improvement in the surrounding community?
Gaming is built on change. Why is the gaming fandom intent on resisting change?
I agree with you, and everything you have said. That's not free speech and I'd be happy to support you argument, or stake someone who's too suborn to admit that there wrong. But I also want to bring up something to ponder on. Racism is wrong, but even the slightest mention of someone being racist seems to bring down the hammer of justice just a bit too early. Mainly RE5. No one complained when RE4 came out, and being Mexican, I can understand why we didn't get offended. Mainly because we have a long stained history with the Spanish, so were okay with it. But I think the issue of racism is getting more and more sensitive.