The Big Picture: Wunderpants - Wonder Woman's New Clothes

[LenticularHomicide]

If Sucker Punch's anti-sexist message (if it actually did have an anti-sexist message) was compromised by the artistic choices made by Snyder, does that completely invalidate the original message?

In short, and respectfully, I would say "yes".

Any message, regardless of intent, is invalidated if the recipient fails to receive it. [...] Having seen Sucker Punch several times (partially due to Bob's video asking for a re-examination of the material), I only walked away with the opinion that if it was supposedly "anti-sexist" and "pro-feminist", it was created by a man with absolutely no understanding or comprehension of what those terms actually meant.

[...]

Bad execution can totally invalidate a good message if practically nobody gets what you intended and, instead, the majority walk away believing your intent was the total OPPOSITE of your intent. After all, the very definition of invalidate is that it weakens or destroys the cogency of something, and the execution absolutely weakened, if not destroyed, Zack Snyder's intent (whether that WAS his intent in the first place...)

Ah, I think I see now where you're coming from.

Your position was not (as I initially surmised) that any poorly-communicated anti-sexist message is automatically sexist, it's that Zack Snyder's (debatable) attempt was so ham-handed and tone-deaf that it may as well have been earnestly sexist.

I can totally agree with that sentiment, that if a work appears to actively militate against its message, that the eventual mess can wind up void of meaning.

Bob has also defended Bayanetta and Other M as not being sexist so I wouldn't take Bob's opinion on what is and isn't sexist, I think he lets his bias blind him a bit.

Other M? Really? That's...disappointing.

 

[Hutzpah Chicken]

Warner Bros. is sticking with that title? Is it because of Copyright issues, as that seems like something that their Shakespearean Monkey experiment plopped out.

 

[Arawn]

With all those clips from of Wonder Woman from the cartoon, I have the sneaking suspicion that the movie won't come close. Not saying she won't be a good character, just that compared to action and story the cartoon WW has is much greater than they'll allow for the film. Fighting demons, gods, and betrayed by her fellow amazons. There's a build up to the character, there's a story she transverses. In the film she's undoubtedly going to be part of the sideshow. Batman and Superman will take the center ring, and WW is either pop in and pop out, or could ruin possible dynamic of Bats and Supes. Let's be frank; WW is Supes without the weakness to kryptonite. (odd that kryptonite is flagged by spell/auto correct. Suggested alternative; krypton)If there was some super power threat that Supes couldn't handle alone, WW is the smart choice for back up. She's got more battle training than the dark knight, and the muscle to break tanks. And no she's not some mindless warrior. As to her training she's a competent tactician. The Justice League trinity all have behave like generals leading troops into battle. I'm almost looking forward to the reason they keep her from doing anything. Maybe she is the threat the two heroes combine against? A la brainwashing perhaps? I don't know, but WW deserves more than just a foot note in this coming movie. Jacket or no jacket. But to be fair I'd suggest a jacket to make up for the skinny girl playing the role. Sorry, she doesn't look like a warrior maiden raised to battle. Some say she's bulking up and working out. Could prove me wrong. I would like that.

 

[ccggenius12]

"Solomon Grundy want pants too."

 

[Stabby Joe]

I have next to no faith in the Justice League films. While previously discussed in regards to She-Hulk, David Goyer also dissed Martian Manhunter IE an original staple league member and insulted his fans at the same time.

Again: Justice league writer insults the source material and fans...

...the property is not in good hands.

 

[SNCommand]

Personally hoping for the hoplite inspired armor option

 

[skylog]

Y'know, the more times I hear "Dawn of Justice", the more it grows on me. Is it really bas as all that?

 

[Gezzer]

So, Bob sounds a little sick this week...? Or was that just me...?
Also, why the everloving hell does Escapist do those pop up windows to frame videos? I can't close them once they're open without reloading the page.

Actually he mentioned a cold about a month or two ago, and his voice has been coming and going ever since. It was worse today is all. I hope Bob's gone to the doctor to find out what's going on. It might just be allergies coinciding with the cold's departure, but if a cold lasts more than a few weeks it might be something else. Just saying....

As for the costume question, my big reaction is, heh. I don't really care either way. In fact I didn't lose my sht over the Green Lantern's new look, or Superman's in the last reboot. I also don't think making a woman a sexual being is all that bad, a sex object on the other hand, not so much. But that's the thing, we all are sexual beings to a point, and as Bob said, it's less about that, then it is about making a woman a stereotypical "blonde bimbo" type. So I almost could get behind a woman superhero wearing only pasties and a thong (Striper Girl anyone?). I say almost because it would be too much like a character out of an Ed Woods movie for me to take seriously.

 

[4173]

Just want to say that Wonder Woman probably isn't the "best known female superhero who isn't the girl of a team or the distaff counterpart of a male hero". I would point that one more towards Jean Grey. Granted she is on a team (at least sometimes), but she isn't THE girl (there are multiple), and with the recent set of X-Men movies she is probably better known outside of the people who read or follow comic books. She MIGHT get more name recognition, but there are far far fewer people who know anything about her character.

Jean Grey as Marvel Girl was the girl of the team.

 

[MorganL4]

Just based on how she fights.... Wouldn't the jacket get in the way? Wouldn't it cause problems with being able to do some of the moves she does to take down her opponents? I'm just saying..... Look at the comic clip Bob included in there, and then try to picture her doing all that while trying to wear a jacket.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

Yeah, that jacket was stupid.

Wonder Woman: Haha! I am invincible!

Minor Chill man: *Jumps through a window next to an open door* NOT TODAY, WONDER WOMAN! *Throws a breeze*

Wonder Woman: NO! Not a small draft! NO! My power is gone! If only I had a way to protect my shoulders from the cold!

Rob Liefeld: Don't worry! I can save you! *Throws a jacket at Wonder Woman*

Wonder Woman: Thanks Rob!

Rob: Now let me break your back and give you guns.

 

[VVThoughtBox]

Making Wonder Woman a feminist icon seems to be doing more harm than good. Feminism is an ideology not a personality. If you think about, it's very foolish to use one character to represent an entire movement made up of millions of people. I have a feeling that if Wonder Woman were to meet feminists in real life, it would be something similar to Superman vs. The Elite where the Superhero from the WWII era (Wonder Woman) calls out the current generation on being so reckless and impulsive when it comes to the issue of justice and civil rights.

 

[Boogie Knight]

I'm hoping that the film's rationale is that Wonder Woman was at a pants party and had to drop what she was doing to save the day. Yes, I'm hoping for a multimillion dollar movie to make an obscure MST3K reference. Makes as much sense as the casting of Lex Luthor.

Seriously, the pants are really the least of my worries. With all the characters and obvious set up for a Justice League movie, there are a whole lot of moving parts that can fly off and insert themselves into someone's eye.

As for the idea of more subdued clothes=good and little left to the imagination=evil, I really think it should be the opposite. The villainess conceals herself with clothes because she has much to hide, or burdensome clothing as visual cue for the weight of tyranny on the populace. Just a thought rattling around in my head, don't expect it to be the new standard but it would be interesting to see deliberate attempts to invert cliches.

 

[ace_of_something]

It always bugged me how Wonder Woman's traditional Amazon greek goddess imbued suit looked like a an American themed stripper's in Japan's starting outfit. Shouldn't it look like something you see in an ancient fresco.

If they REAAALLY want to make her look different they should give her Exoristos' costume from demon knights.

 

[Nurb]

What I'm getting is that people over-analyze and judge female characters no matter what... nothing will ever be good enough.

 

[Nepukadnezzar]

I actually liked the jacket as well.
It just doesn't fit well with the whole greek theme, if you put in the jacket you should also cut the swords, shields and the rest of the ancient greek equipment ....

I did I just turn wonder woman into a manga character?

 

[MrBaskerville]

I don´t mind pants, as long as they get rid of the ridiculous stars and stripes design. But i´m not really a fan anyway, just think it would look weird if she was running around like in the series while everyone else is wearing somewhat normal clothes. I just don´t think a lot of these superhero costumes translates well into the real world, most often it just looks ridiculous and in that case i think it´s fair to make some changes.

 

[Darth_Payn]

All this talk of the jacket got me thinking this should calm everybody down:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/3MExgf6mwdU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen>
I'll be back when I have something more intelligent and relevant to the "Wonder Woman costume and sexual implications thereof" issue, because right now, nothing really comes to mind yet.

EDIT: Oh, for fuck's sake, why did the YouTube video for "Jacket" not get embedded?!

To embed videos in the forums, type out the YT link within a pair of "" brackets and get rid of the 'www.' and '.com/watch?v' portion. Quote me to see the syntax of this embed:

<youtube=3MExgf6mwdU>

Ah, good. Thanks, dude. Sometimes YouTube itself isn't clear in its own instructions to embed videos.

 

[Neferius]

I think they should give poor Conan a jacket next, i mean Seriously!

"Happy now?"
...no, but this is more about YOUR well-being )

 

[Alarien]

snip... DC's problem has always been that their characters have been about as dull as dishwater.

DC's flagship characters maybe.

The secondary heroes, Animal Man, Hitman, Doom Patrol, Amanda Waller, Moon Knight, The Question, the Hal Jordan and Oliver Queen team-up, Booster Gold and Blue Beetle (just Ted Kord) are far more interesting than Marvel's angsty teenagers.

I haven't really read Marvel since Kraven's Last Hunt though.

Oh and lets not forget that DC has the better villain roster, and geniuses like Ostrander knew how to use them, even the goofy ones like Captain Boomerang, to great effect. Suicide Squad had a lasting effect on DC villains.

MovieBob... Animal Man, Margaret Attwood... Respect!

That very well may be true, and perhaps I'll look into some of those heroes. The flagship heroes, as you call them, are utterly awful, to me.

I haven't been reading in a while. Marvel went off the rails on a lot of the stories I liked a long time ago, and I bowed out. I still like the idea of their heroes though more. I had hoped they had gotten off the angsty teenager train in the '90s though (gah, the second gen X-Factor was the worst for this).

I've wanted to get back in, but I refuse to pay $4 for 24-27 pages. I have to wait for trade paperbacks to even think about it, sadly. If the digital prices were dropped to say $2, then I'd probably start buying again.

I also agree that Marvel has mostly "bad" villains, which is a shame. Spiderman's are probably the absolute bottom of the barrel. However, I do think they have some fun ones. Doom isn't terrible, and the X-men franchise often has really strong villains. I have a hard time finding any villain that has more personality and character interest as Magneto. I've never been overly enamored of DC's villains either, but I'm willing to give them a look.

As for the Patriarchy comment that a lot of people have been bringing up, and which Bob references in his comments, I think it's a red herring. I really don't think that the reason for changes to Wonder Woman's costume, to potentially add pants is really a matter of covering up. If it was, then I'd agree that just demanding she cover up is bad. Again, I'll point to Ms Marvel's current outfit and how fantastic that is. White Crown Phoenix Jean Grey's outfit leaves little to the imagination and still looks great. Maybe we need to consider that the original Wonder Woman's costume design just looks kinda... stupid now. It does to me. The pants/jacket look looks kinda cool to me. The leather strip skirt+ armor design looks kinda cool. They can even make the hotpants/leotard look look cool. The one thing that doesn't look cool is the fact that her original outfit looks like a girl's set of Underoos.