The Fast Track To Internet Infamy

[NuclearKangaroo]

i think it does

it doesn't, you keep parroting the same thing over and over

and yet you refuse to even look at anything critically

i do, like i said, i speak from experience

[quote/]
1- well if there is a market for female characters we should eventually see a strong demand for them dont you think?

so uh...all those scary femenazis on the internet your so scared of...they don't represent a "strong demnd"? [/quote]

then they should make their own games, that appeal to their tastes and tastes of people similar to them, and make a lot of money

thats the point of borderline sabotaging existing fans or shaming a developer for his/her artistics choices?[/quote]

anyway so now we are in a circle situation, we think people don't want female protagonist, we don't make them...round and round it goes

we know for a fact developers are facing an uphill battle should they want to make a non optional female protagonist because of what publishers think, play it safe....we all know this, its not secret

look the market has shown us time and time again how this is solved, someone takes the first step

"adventure games are dead"

telltale games released the walking dead adventure game series

"difficult games are dead"

team meat releases super meat boy and from software releases demon's souls

etc

if theres a market, sucess is to be expected

we also know as far as movies go female let projects are not box office poison, make something good enough people will like, now games might be a little different from movies...but I think the audience is large enough

yes, the problem comes when someone tells the director terminator should be a woman because someone wants a woman on a leading role, again compromising the decisions of the artists

[quote/]2- i dont get your point here, im saying if you want your gender/race/sexual orientation to be better represented in video games you could comaplain about it... or do something about it

"complaing" is actually a valid part of the process...again we critique our culture, and "doing something about it" is not so cut and dry [/quote]

but again you are basically shaming artists for their artistic decisions, not the quality of their work, its better and more productive to create

[quote/]im kinda bummed about a certain strategy subgenre i feel is not represented well enough, so im making my own game about that subgenre, see? this is how you change things

except NOBDY tells anyone to do that when it comes up in gamign discussion[/quote]

im doing it right now arent i?

exactly it means nothing, so what if some people feel alineated? not everyone feels alienated

so what? the people who do are wrong? should shut up?

and what about the people who arent and are fine the way things are? what makes their feelings any less important?

[quote/]
so you are ashamed of your race/position, that cant be healthy

you'vr got to be doing this on purpose...I tried to explain it.

I did not grow up a black woman, there are aspects of society that affect black women I didn't even know about but you know what? I read about those aspects and instead of getting all defensive and shit (because waaah! the world revoles around me!) I learned about and understood it, and I'm better for it

[quote/]if your points are valid why should your race matter?[/quote]
because its one of the many things that make up your experiences and attitude of the world [/quote]

only if you let it make up your experiences and attitude of the world

we dont do that over here, and i think it works great

I don't know what its like to come from a dysfunctional family, or to live in an unsafe country, or to never have enough food or to have parents the didn't value education, this colors my perception of [b/]certain topics[/b] and it would be very easy for me to pull a just world fallacy and act like all the problems of the poor are their own fault (because what a comforting thought that would be)

to argue someones opinion is less valid because of that person's origin is also a fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

aahhhh so now I'm overthinking things, another hand wave

and you simplify everything to avoid critical thought

once again i base my arguments in my experience in my country, we dont care about race, and theres no racism here

i mean you cant argue it cant work, heres the counter example

privaligde is actually a thing I've tried to explain off hand in this whole thing...though I never used the word because you start using certain words people freak out

becuase its something that hardly matters, honestly this kind of talk has only made things infinitely worse in my country

that depeeeeeeendssss!!!

no, a good argument doesnt depends on one person's race/gender/sexual orientation

again who and the why is more complicated than that

im just echoing what i hear the government say, stuff that shares some similarities with the stuff advocates of social justice say

and ive seen the end result of that kind of thinking

oh....oh I'm sorry I'm being mean aren't I?

I disagree (and sometimes dismiss) arguments based on whats being said first and foremost....what's being said can come from a personas background,

in other words you want to ask a female centric woman you might do well to ask...you know...a woman

im not saying a woman wont generally answer the question better, that doesnt mean the answer of a man will always be dismissable

it all goes hand in hand

what an artist is trying to get across, what the audience interprets, how art affects us and our culture its all related and important

you can actually take thease things into account while still enjoying them....I should know..I like hip hop

Birth of a nation paints a picture of a racist as fuck society, we know this, we accept this, no one defends it, just just accept it for its historical context and significance

nope, for instance i really dislike the furry artstyle, and yet i cant argue dust an elyssian tail is less of a game because of it, it MIGHT alineate possible customers because of it but it wont be a worse piece of work

likewise the birth of a nation is often complimented for its innovative film techniques (at the time), the fact its a very racist film does not give it any less merit as a piece of art

[quote/]
you sure?

http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

a developer of divinity original sin, forced to redesign one of his characters because some people didnt like bikini armor

i dont support insults or shaming of devs because of their artistics decisions, now if a game fails as a game, by all means critize that

the devs chose to change it, if they wanted they could have stuck to their guns....

.....its not like this was a commercial issue

oh hey about "strong demand" again....[/quote]

more like people shaming and insulting the dev for his artistic decisions, thats not demand, thats harassment

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

if there is truthly an audience for all those different kinds of characters you want, the market should eventually speak for itself dont you think?

You mean aside from the people online speaking for it that you actively dismiss and talk down to?

It might also show up in marketing, except for the active exclusion we've seen. Or the way publishers have reduced female roles. Weird how the "censorship bad!" crowd was silent when that was making news stories.

Of course, the public can speak for itself. It's not like games with female protagonists see significantly less marketing than those with male protagonists or anything. Well, except that's exactly what happens.

Funny thing about the free market is it's free to ignore as many cues as it wants.

on the contrary, im saying, "make the games you want"

i think its a solution that satisfies most people

im not talking down to nobody, atleast its not my intention i apologize if i came off that way, im simply trying to be respectful

a limited marketing campaign can affect a game's sales, true, but its not the ultimate deciding factor for success, plenty of games have become great successes via word of mouth alone, divinity original sin, amnesia, minecraft, FTL, etc

 

[Vault101]

i do, like i said, i speak from experience

yeah your experience

you said yourself,

[quote/]and what about the people who arent and are fine the way things are? what makes their feelings any less important?[/quote]

for all this talk of being about equality and progressivness its a big lie....
because you don't care..you said it just now, even if you can acknowledge there is disparity you do not give one solitary fig about how anyone feels outside your viewpoint, you view it as a threat

its not a threat, games with more variety is good for everyone....what the fuck do you think I've been doing the whole time? only play games that give me the option? HA! I have preferences aside from the gender of the protagonist you know

your precious games won't go away

the world will not drown in the tears of all those artist who you claim to speak for...

[quote/]more like people shaming and insulting the dev for his artistic decisions, thats not demand, thats harassment
[/quote]

are you an artist? because if someone criticised my work for a similar reason I'd actually you know...listen...and maybe learn something

or not

!

[quote/]no, a good argument doesnt depends on one person's race/gender/sexual orientation[/quote]
I meant ti depends on whats being said

I mean for fuck sake dude you interpreted me as ackowelging I may not be the all white all enlightened master of the universe as hating my own race? what the actual fuck? I fail to see what the alternative to that would be
again you want us to go away


[quote/]once again i base my arguments in my experience in my country, we dont care about race, and theres no racism here[/quote]
*snrrrrrrrk* keep dreaming

[quote/]likewise the birth of a nation is often complimented for its innovative film techniques (at the time), the fact its a very racist film does not give it any less merit as a piece of art[/quote]
well sure....though you might feel differently about it if you were a black American..but hey having different views on art is fine

 

[Vault101]

For me, his argument is equivalent of saying some slaves of 1800s Georgia really did enjoy their lives of forced servitude and lack of human rights and decency in exchange for essentially being treated like livestock, so we should respect their opinions as much as the slaves who wanted to be free and not think of them as mind-washed or anything else for that matter.

yeah

although for me that's sticky territory as I'm not sure I could put forward the same idea without feeling like I'm telling minorites how to feel...

[quote/]Was that image oversimplified propaganda? Yes. Gives no historical/cultural context? Yes. Made to silence opposition by essentially using the "stop whining!" argument? Oh you better believe YES![/quote]
ugghh I get so tried sometimes...

 

[Alien1375]

[/quote]erm.....why are you upset? how was this comic offense?[/quote]

I'm not upset. I just made a joke.

[/quote] Alien1375 received a warning for this post. Click here to show the post[/quote]

I rest my case.

 

[mecegirl]

its good you don't feel alienated, but that doesn't mean some don't

I know I haven't faced much because I don't apparently "act ethnic" of any of the races of that make me up, but i know I still see it, both towards me and others. It can easily be possible he hasn't seen anything thrown his way in terms of racism, especially with his country's situation. I just don't understand why he is essentially burning the bridge for everyone else by saying "I'm not white and I haven't been discriminated against, so racism doesn't exist/isn't a huge problem" when in fact he should just say "isn't a huge problem to me, under my circumstances, but it may be to others". For me, his argument is equivalent of saying some slaves of 1800s Georgia really did enjoy their lives of forced servitude and lack of human rights and decency in exchange for essentially being treated like livestock, so we should respect their opinions as much as the slaves who wanted to be free and not think of them as mind-washed or anything else for that matter. With your slavery example we actually should respect both opinions. Of course the problem isn't the opinion, its slavery. The problem is that there is no choice. Owning someone like that without their consent is morally wrong. It doesn't matter if some slaves liked it, it was still morally wrong to force the ones who didn't to stay. A perfect situation would be to let those who really wanted to stay to stay and to let to rest go.

After the civil war some slaves did stay and work on plantations. Not for free necessarily(though I doubt that they were compensated much back then)but for some they didn't really have anywhere else to go or other skills. That had unfortunately become the only type of work that they knew how to do.

Kangaroo's issue is that they are not accounting for the cultural differences between North and South America. They are not from North America so their opinion has no authority as to whether or not racism exists in North America(or any other country). Even a White person from North America would have a better idea of what racism is like in North America simply because they live in North America. Though for the record, I am Black and have a few friends who are from various countries in South America. From what they tell me they were treated worse up here than how they are treated back home. I've heard similar things from my African friends. They never really considered themselves to be "Black" or understood what it was like to consider racial differences until they moved here and noticed that some people treated them differently.

North and South America developed different attitudes towards race because the ethnic, social, and economic factors were different. To be brief, the English liked to keep the races as separate as possible. And it was used as a means to keep "order". Sometimes biracial children would gain status but that only lasted as far as their White parent's influence, and if no one noticed that they were biracial. For a while no one really enforced the separation in fear of incriminating themselves. But soon one drop rules(actual codified laws like Virgina's Racial Integrity Act of 1924) came into effect as well as laws banning interracial marriage. Things snowballed from there.

Span and Portugal...well, things were different with them and the lands that they colonized. But this would explain it a lot better than I can.http://www.historians.org/publicati...teaching-the-history-of-race-in-latin-americaBut in short racial mixing happened a bit more often in the South,and had a certain level of acceptance. Fast forward to present day and its not wonder that their concept of race is less strict to down right nonexistent in comparison to ours.

But as for the "Just make your own" advice. It's pretty pointless advice. I guarantee you all that somewhere someone who is a member of an underrepresented group is trying to make a video game. Or has made a video game. But because they don't have the money that big time publishers have there isn't enough advertizing to give that game a proper following. Things are thankfully changing now because of kickstarter and Steam. And such games being made currently have a better chance. So it's not like folks need to be told "make your own". The difference of course is that those people actually know how to make video games. So to say "make your own" to most people is counter productive. What are they to do? Go back to college in order to learn how to make a video game? No. All they can do is put the word out about what they want and wait for a product to appear that suits their tastes.

Besides, in North America at least we've seen what happens when people "make their own" it gets ghettoized. It never becomes fully accepted into the "mainstream" consciousness because it becomes marked as for "insert group here" people. And unfortunately gets regarded as a lesser product because of the social biases that mark their creators as lesser people. Meanwhile mainstream media gets accepted as for everyone to consume despite not being diverse enough to cater to everyone. And the same folks spouting "Well they should just make their own," get all bent out of shape when someone does. For example, the complaints about publications like Essence magazine and TV stations like BET being only for Black people.

 

[DM Gray]

snipped.

Why not say "I do not like it" instead of "it is sexist"

I agree. I think people would get much better responses from developers if they actually articulated their critiques, as opposed to saying "sexism" and dropping the microphone.

That's not happening though.
Especially not by the majority of those pretending to be moderates while entirely dismissing/undermining and condescending those opposed to their view.
According to these people the accusations of misogyny and complete suppression of different opinions constitutes progress.

I think it constituted bigots excusing their own bigotry because they feel it is justified.

It's sad, because the VAST majority of those supporting gamergate, myself included, are delighted by the prospect of more diversity and have never had a problem with inclusion (I've literally been enticing people to play games for decades, and champion "gamification" in schools. So misogynist of me to want people to enjoy the games they want to enjoy without prejudice or judgement; male or female)
The lunatics have been allowed to run the asylum, and some people are still convinced that everything is awesome. Nothing to see.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

i do, like i said, i speak from experience

yeah your experience

you said yourself,

in my experience, in a country where this approach works

[quote/]and what about the people who arent and are fine the way things are? what makes their feelings any less important?

for all this talk of being about equality and progressivness its a big lie....
because you don't care..you said it just now, even if you can acknowledge there is disparity you do not give one solitary fig about how anyone feels outside your viewpoint, you view it as a threat

its not a threat, games with more variety is good for everyone....what the fuck do you think I've been doing the whole time? only play games that give me the option? HA! I have preferences aside from the gender of the protagonist you know

your precious games won't go away

the world will not drown in the tears of all those artist who you claim to speak for... [/quote]

i never said anything even similar, i said, what makes one claim more valid than the other?

how is limiting an artist's vision more variety?

[quote/]more like people shaming and insulting the dev for his artistic decisions, thats not demand, thats harassment

are you an artist? because if someone criticised my work for a similar reason I'd actually you know...listen...and maybe learn something

or not

! [/quote]

you are going to listen to insults and harassment?

[quote/]no, a good argument doesnt depends on one person's race/gender/sexual orientation

I meant ti depends on whats being said

I mean for fuck sake dude you interpreted me as ackowelging I may not be the all white all enlightened master of the universe as hating my own race? what the actual fuck? I fail to see what the alternative to that would be
again you want us to go away[/quote]

you far you are the only one who speaks like is being threatened

consider the following

you are in a discussion about racism with 2 people behind 2 doors, both argue the exact same thing

both doors open and one person turns out to be white and the other turns out to be black, did opening the door invalidate the argument of either person, despite the fact they both said the exact same thing?

[quote/]once again i base my arguments in my experience in my country, we dont care about race, and theres no racism here

*snrrrrrrrk* keep dreaming [/quote]

i repeat, werent you supposed to be rational?

[quote/]likewise the birth of a nation is often complimented for its innovative film techniques (at the time), the fact its a very racist film does not give it any less merit as a piece of art

well sure....though you might feel differently about it if you were a black American..but hey having different views on art is fine[/quote]

i presented you with an example of a piece of art that deeply insults me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

im a christian catholic, this shit is offensive to me, but i wont ask the artist to censor himself, you know what i will do instead? turn around, cuz thats simply art that doesnt appeal to me

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

i think a work of art should be critized based on its merits as art, not on whenever it follows a certain political point of view or not

So if I said the portrayal of women in videogames is largely inartful, you would be fine with that? Because by and large, I think that is true. I cannot know for certain if they are being lazy with their potrayals, but a lot of represenations seem to lack creativity. Contrary to this idea of 'artistic vision' many games have an unexamined default: shallow or peripheral characterizations for their females. In other words, shoddy characterization is bad art, and I would like to see much better art more consistently. I would like to see the bar raised- for male and female characters, certainly. But considering how substandard female characterization is in aggregate, I would like to see the bar raised there specifically.

 

[Amir Kondori]

SJW for a brief minute meant people who post on tumblr that having sex with your girlfriend after you've both had two beers is rape.
Now SJW means "person I don't like and disagree with".

 

[Vault101]

in my experience, in a country where this approach works

racism is not a switch you just "turn on and off" by pretending is doesn't exist...much like sexism doesn't go away if you pretend it doesn't exist

that kind of thing comes through understanding, and understanding means sometimes you actually have to (god forbid) cast a critical eye at yourself, that does not mean "hating" your own race

but of coarse one thing we forgot here is the fact that the racism issues I'm thinking of a largely American based whose history and vulture are I imagine rather different from your country, so really you can't apply the same "thing" there (whatever the hell that was)

[quote/]
i never said anything even similar, i said, what makes one claim more valid than the other?[/quote]
when one of them is sunk in circle logic, refusal to listen and a very strong bias...but I digress

[quote/]how is limiting an artist's vision more variety?[/quote]with respect I feel you are now being obtuse....

this isn't about "limiting an artists vision" (assuming that vision wasn't commercially influenced in the first place...a little issue you seem hell bent on ignoring)

if anything this is the opposite, if we make it OK to make games that Have female protagonists or different kinds in the mainstream game space them BAM more variety, right now the one notable female led game only exists because its from a long standing franchise, (Tomb Radier) Bioshock Infinite didn't even put Elizabeth on the cover....a friggen gaming magazine from somewhere in europor [/i]photshoped Ellie out[/I]

[quote/]
you are going to listen to insults and harassment?[/quote]
criticism is not insults and harassment...its [I/]important[/I] yes not all criticism is valid, that's why its up to the artist to tell the difference between valid and constructive criticism and pointless negativity....if they can't handle that they are in the wrong business

[quote/]
you far you are the only one who speaks like is being threatened[/quote]
no...just frustrated

[quote/]consider the following

you are in a discussion about racism with 2 people behind 2 doors, both argue the exact same thing

both doors open and one person turns out to be white and the other turns out to be black, did opening the door invalidate the argument of either person, despite the fact they both said the exact same thing?[/quote]
if you actually read what I said

it depends on what they are SAYING first and foremost, so no





[quote/]

i presented you with an example of a piece of art that deeply insults me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

im a christian catholic, this shit is offensive to me,[/quote]
you just refered to it as shit

stop harassing the artist [/sarcasm]


[quote/]but i wont ask the artist to censor himself, you know what i will do instead? turn around, cuz thats simply art that doesnt appeal to me[/quote]

well shit...and here I was plying GTA for 2 hours every night working myself into a rage asurism when all I had to do was not play it? [/sarcasm]

yeah so what? the fact you let it be doesn't change what you think...you just told me what you thought...and other people should be able to say the same thing, even in a more open space (like I don't know...a series of youtube videos?) you wouldn't send that artist rape or death threats would you?

and you know if MOST and I mean MOST mainstream media commonly had offensive depictions of Catholicism you probably wouldn't nod and smile if people tond you to go away, told you to be nice, told you to make your own pro-catholic art or painted you as the antichrist for dare pointing such a thing out

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

racism is not a switch you just "turn on and off" by pretending is doesn't exist...much like sexism doesn't go away if you pretend it doesn't exist

that kind of thing comes through understanding, and understanding means sometimes you actually have to (god forbid) cast a critical eye at yourself, that does not mean "hating" your own race

but of coarse one thing we forgot here is the fact that the racism issues I'm thinking of a largely American based whose history and vulture are I imagine rather different from your country, so really you can't apply the same "thing" there (whatever the hell that was)

maybe racism is perpetuated in your country because you fellas keep making a big deal about it, thats my point

i never said racism is a switch, i in fact said you might not live to see it disappear, but you might be delaying its eventual destruction by giving race way more importance than it deserves

when one of them is sunk in circle logic, refusal to listen and a very strong bias...but I digress

yes you disgress, you didnt answer the question

theres people who like the way things are and dont feel alineated, is that not a valid point of view?

with respect I feel you are now being obtuse....

this isn't about "limiting an artists vision" (assuming that vision wasn't commercially influenced in the first place...a little issue you seem hell bent on ignoring)

if anything this is the opposite, if we make it OK to make games that Have female protagonists or different kinds in the mainstream game space them BAM more variety, right now the one notable female led game only exists because its from a long standing franchise, (Tomb Radier) Bioshock Infinite didn't even put Elizabeth on the cover....a friggen gaming magazine from somewhere in europor [/i]photshoped Ellie out[/I]

heres the thing, theres nothing stopping artists right now if they want to make female characters, which is the opposite you intent to do by making sexy characters soemthing worthly of critique, something undesirable

and just because an artist's vision is often comercially influenced, does that mean he can compromise it completely?

criticism is not insults and harassment...its [I/]important[/I] yes not all criticism is valid, that's why its up to the artist to tell the difference between valid and constructive criticism and pointless negativity....if they can't handle that they are in the wrong business

but that is not criticism, because the piece of work is not of any less quality just because it has a character that doesnt appeal to you, and sometimes it is harassment, plain and simple

no...just frustrated

pardon the misunderstanding, maybe you should try calming down, the less insults we throw around, the better

if you actually read what I said

it depends on what they are SAYING first and foremost, so no

they both use the same argument, it can be anything, both people say the exact same thing, it can be the most progressive statement of the century or a KKK speech, it doesnt matter, does opening the doors invalidate one of those people's opinion?

you just refered to it as shit

stop harassing the artist [/sarcasm]


[quote/]but i wont ask the artist to censor himself, you know what i will do instead? turn around, cuz thats simply art that doesnt appeal to me

well shit...and here I was plying GTA for 2 hours every night working myself into a rage asurism when all I had to do was not play it? [/sarcasm]

yeah so what? the fact you let it be doesn't change what you think...you just told me what you thought...and other people should be able to say the same thing, even in a more open space (like I don't know...a series of youtube videos?) you wouldn't send that artist rape or death threats would you?

and you know if MOST and I mean MOST mainstream media commonly had offensive depictions of Catholicism you probably wouldn't nod and smile if people tond you to go away, told you to be nice, told you to make your own pro-catholic art or painted you as the antichrist for dare pointing such a thing out[/quote]

so? i can refer to something as shit im not harassing anybody

yes i can tell you what i think but i dont consider it a valid criticism of the piece of art, hell for starters i know nothing about photography, my criticism would be beyond worthless, it wouldnt help the artist improve his work

something that doesnt diminish the quality of a piece of art isnt a valid criticism, atleast in my opinion

you must understand, you cant ask for censorship to something that is not widely considered offensive

also theres plenty of pro-catholic art, damn the renaissance is full of it

i assume you are talking about minorities in that last paragraph

if most mainstream media is offensive to minorities, why i am not offended? havent you thought this offensiveness is open to interpretation?

 

[Vault101]

maybe racism is perpetuated in your country because you fellas keep making a big deal about it, thats my point

that is an oversimplification

and a bullshit one

AND a very easy thing for someone to say who doesn't experience such a thing themselves, again you keep implying "well I'm not white and I don't feel any issues dur to my race so therefore those people who do are wrong)

[b/]your are not a racial minority in America[/b] your opinion is colored by that fact


hold on

[quote/]yes i can tell you what I think but I don't consider it a valid criticism of the piece of art,[b/] hell for starters i know nothing about photography, my criticism would be beyond worthless,[/b] it wouldn't help the artist improve his work[/quote]


you....you just said... what I have been trying to say the whole....time...

you [b/]acknowledged[/b] that your understanding of something [b/]may be limited[/b] because [b/]you didn't have a deep understanding of photography[/b]

your opinion would not be "beyond worthless" in that case but you said it yourself, you took into account your experiences and knowledge of something and applied it to how well you think think you understand that something and weather or not your opinion of it would have any weight....

and you decided that since you don't have a deep understanding of photography you decided that you didn't have anything to say on the matter..OR you might choose to listen to someone who does have a better understanding of photography and conflate that opinion with your own...or disagree with them entirely!

similar thing, you don't know what its like to be a woman, so you may not have a deep understanding of how we ecperience the world and therefore how we feel about its media or how it affects us

you don't know what its like to be black in America so you may not have a deep understanding of how race affects their lives in that culture


please dear lord tell me you get it NOW

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

that is an oversimplification

and a bullshit one

AND a very easy thing for someone to say who doesn't experience such a thing themselves, again you keep implying "well I'm not white and I don't feel any issues dur to my race so therefore those people who do are wrong)

[b/]your are not a racial minority in America[/b] your opinion is colored by that fact


hold on

true im not a minority in the US, that doesnt mean i dont know what racism is, admitedly i havent experienced first hand

[quote/]yes i can tell you what I think but I don't consider it a valid criticism of the piece of art,[b/] hell for starters i know nothing about photography, my criticism would be beyond worthless,[/b] it wouldn't help the artist improve his work

you....you just said... what I have been trying to say the whole....time...

you [b/]acknowledged[/b] that your understanding of something [b/]may be limited[/b] because [b/]you didn't have a deep understanding of photography[/b]

your opinion would not be "beyond worthless" in that case but you said it yourself, you took into account your experiences and knowledge of something and applied it to how well you think think you understand that something and weather or not your opinion of it would have any weight....

and you decided that since you don't have a deep understanding of photography you decided that you didn't have anything to say on the matter..OR you might choose to listen to someone who does have a better understanding of photography and conflate that opinion with your own...or disagree with them entirely!

similar thing, you don't know what its like to be a woman, so you may not have a deep understanding of how we ecperience the world and therefore how we feel about its media or how it affects us

you don't know what its like to be black in America so you may not have a deep understanding of how race affects their lives in that culture


please dear lord tell me you get it NOW[/quote]

i dont know about photography, how could my criticism improve the artists work?

its the blind leading the blind, i would be no better at rocket physics, i know nothing about the deal

i havent argued at any point that i know nothing about racism, i havent experienced it, but like i said, if my argument is solid it shouldnt matter

im arguing "i dont know about photography, therefore i cant critize the art of a photographer"

you are arguing "im not a photographer, therefore i cant critize the art of a photographer"

 

[Baddamobs]

EVERYONE TAKE A DEEP BREATH!

...

...

Alright, let me just say this and get the hell out here.

Look, I think a good percentage of feminism is correct/right/whatever. BUT. Can we all at least agree that the statement (made in hyperbole; I'm not blaming the comic creators for making a point (though subtly is a virtue, I mean Jesus...)) is in and of it self, sexist and racist?

It is assuming on a person's gender and race, and thus is everything feminism and race equality activist argue against. No one in their right mind would make this statement and not see it as at least 'too negative' a message, surely?

There is much to this topic, and I freaking skipping the surface to make a point, but can we all just agree that sexism/racism IS A BAD THING, REGARDLESS OF THE SEX/RACE TARGETED ?

...Alright? Now everyone take another breath.

(But seriously, subtly, look it up, Christ...)

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

i never said anything even similar, i said, what makes one claim more valid than the other?

how is limiting an artist's vision more variety?

Do you work in the arts at all? Because from my own experience, criticism has led to a far better product than had I stayed in my own echo chamber. I had a vision, certainly. But a creative work is often a work in process, one that becomes realized as it is created. It is not simply transcribing word for word, image for image, fully formed from your head. Sure, you can let criticism run roughshod over you. But inciteful criticism strengthens art; it does not diminish it. I would argue better characterization for women in games strengthens the game (in games where characters are a meaningful concept.) It is important to hear feedback to improve the next work. Some criticims you adopt, some you consider and use sparingly, and some you ignore. But the presence of criticism does not squelch so-called artistic vision.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

i never said anything even similar, i said, what makes one claim more valid than the other?

how is limiting an artist's vision more variety?

Do you work in the arts at all? Because from my own experience, criticism has led to a far better product than had I stayed in my own echo chamber. I had a vision, certainly. But a creative work is often a work in process, one that becomes realized as it is created. It is not simply transcribing word for word, image for image, fully formed from your head. Sure, you can let criticism run roughshod over you. But inciteful criticism strengthens art; it does not diminish it. I would argue better characterization for women in games strengthens the game (in games where characters are a meaningful concept.) It is important to hear feedback to improve the next work. Some criticims you adopt, some you consider and use sparingly, and some you ignore. But the presence of criticism does not squelch so-called artistic vision.

theres difference between useful criticism and useless criticism

useful criticism: the body proportions in this realistic painting are off (the work of art is objectively flawed)

useless criticism: this sculpture doesnt have enough ballons (the work of art doesnt appeal to my tastes)

a "sexist" character does not in any way diminish the quality of a game, a women character can be weak, or revealing, or promiscuous, etc, and still be a good character, because these are concepts an artist can work with, there are weak women just like there are weak men, there are women who embrace their sexuality just like there are men that do

the idea that a set of traits from a character can diminish a work of art is completely ridiculous

is Django Unchained a worse movie because it features racist characters?

is Maus a worse comic because the artist didnt hide the fact his father is racist?

hell no

 

[Cronenberg1]

i never said anything even similar, i said, what makes one claim more valid than the other?

how is limiting an artist's vision more variety?

Do you work in the arts at all? Because from my own experience, criticism has led to a far better product than had I stayed in my own echo chamber. I had a vision, certainly. But a creative work is often a work in process, one that becomes realized as it is created. It is not simply transcribing word for word, image for image, fully formed from your head. Sure, you can let criticism run roughshod over you. But inciteful criticism strengthens art; it does not diminish it. I would argue better characterization for women in games strengthens the game (in games where characters are a meaningful concept.) It is important to hear feedback to improve the next work. Some criticims you adopt, some you consider and use sparingly, and some you ignore. But the presence of criticism does not squelch so-called artistic vision.

theres difference between useful criticism and useless criticism

useful criticism: the body proportions in this realistic painting are off (the work of art is objectively flawed)

useless criticism: this sculpture doesnt have enough ballons (the work of art doesnt appeal to my tastes)

a "sexist" character does not in any way diminish the quality of a game, a women character can be weak, or revealing, or promiscuous, etc, and still be a good character, because these are concepts an artist can work with, there are weak women just like there are weak men, there are women who embrace their sexuality just like there are men that do

the idea that a set of traits from a character can diminish a work of art is completely ridiculous

is Django Unchained a worse movie because it features racist characters?

is Maus a worse comic because the artist didnt hide the fact his father is racist?

hell no

It's not the characters themselves it's the use of the characters. Yes those traits can be used well but that doesn't mean that we can't debate when they're not used well, or overused, or when they are used without purpose to the story. You can't break down all art into completely objective criticism.