The Force Awakens question

[Johnny Novgorod]

I didn't much like it. Which isn't to say it's a bad movie. Just a lot like the original Star Wars and therefore pointless. I keep hearing the argument that it's supposed to introduce a new generation to the franchise. To them I say: look the other movies up.

And Rey is a Mary Sue. What can I tell you.

 

[twistedmic]

The Empire is objectively cooler then the Rebels. They get shit done (building a second death star an order of magnitude larger then the fist in only 4 years in a galaxy where technology was stagnant for the 5,000 years before their rise to power) and apart from doing the galactic equivalent of blowing up a town that's supplying a terrorist group we never see anything on screen to make them actually look like bad guys until the sequels came.

So vaporizing a planet that might have harbored rebels, slaughtering a tribe/clan of Jawas just for coming into contact with a droid that they believed held the Death Star Plans, murdering civilians, occupying a planet and enforcing their rule as well as torturing prisoners don't qualify as evil or bad?

 

[Zontar]

The Empire is objectively cooler then the Rebels. They get shit done (building a second death star an order of magnitude larger then the fist in only 4 years in a galaxy where technology was stagnant for the 5,000 years before their rise to power) and apart from doing the galactic equivalent of blowing up a town that's supplying a terrorist group we never see anything on screen to make them actually look like bad guys until the sequels came.

So vaporizing a planet that might have harbored rebels, slaughtering a tribe/clan of Jawas just for coming into contact with a droid that they believed held the Death Star Plans, murdering civilians, occupying a planet and enforcing their rule as well as torturing prisoners don't qualify as evil or bad?

We knew that that planet was supporting the Rebellion (and ironically whether it be the Star Wars EU or Canon, both have reinforced this point), and given the danger that was posed by the Death Star plans being in the hands of religious terrorists, the acts done towards the ends of finding them and the Rebel base where justified, and ironically vindicated given they managed to kill hundreds of thousands of Imperial navel personnel and the Grand Moth himself while also destroying the one thing that could assure order in the galaxy for the first time in thousands of years.

 

[xaszatm]

I think you're reading way too much into this. People have liked the Empire since it all began, and there's a certain alluring nature to the bad guys in fiction when done right, and this was made even more so when the different books have fleshed the Empire Rebellion/Republic out to the point where the only real difference in ideology was if you wanted an efficient dictatorship prone to infighting or a brutally inefficient democracy prone to infighting, one which explicitly had slavery while the other looked the other way when it happened.

Uh...what? Look, I like the Empire but you are giving way too much credit to them. There are only two genuinely competent people in the Empire of the old cannon: Admiral Thrawn and Gilad Pellaeon. Of the two, only Gilad Pellaeon can claim have made the Imperial Remnant a force leaning towards good. The two competent members of Empire were competent because both were obsessed with efficiency over power. Both knew how idiotic the Death Star was as a concept and how it was a tremendous waste of resources, especially in a intergalatic empire where mobility, not power, was key for control. Both used the native species own culture to either dismantle them in battle or convince them to join the empire over Palpatine's occupations and ramming his philosophies down people's throats. Both rewarded competence even if it technically disobeyed orders rather than reward mewling obedience.

As for the actual Empire, they did all those incompetent things because they were planned for by the Emperor himself. Why are you surprised by the fact that the Empire was dismantled within a year in the new canon? Is it not logical that a court of people obsessed with power and infighting would attempt to fight among each other if the leader is removed? The Emperor prized cronies how obeyed his every whim even if it ran counter to actual rulership. He purposely kept on muddying the chains of command and encouraged promotion by backstabbing. He was obsessed with spectacular displays of power when he ruled too large of an area for that power to be used effectively. Hell, half the reason why the Rebels are able to bring down the Empire so quickly is because their mobility made the Empire's power useless. When you get down to it, the Empire was doomed from the start. Even if his overly cruel policies as Emperor didn't result in mass rebellion and discontent, his inefficient spending of resource, enforcing incompetents to high command, and encouraging infighting would have brought him down. Hell, the Dark Elves from Warhammer Fantasy are more competent this this guy.

Look, the Empire are an "evil is cool" faction but competent they are not. And yeah, everyone else is making a point to but since that isn't going to convince you anyways.

 

[happyninja42]

We knew that that planet was supporting the Rebellion (and ironically whether it be the Star Wars EU or Canon, both have reinforced this point), and given the danger that was posed by the Death Star plans being in the hands of religious terrorists, the acts done towards the ends of finding them and the Rebel base where justified, and ironically vindicated given they managed to kill hundreds of thousands of Imperial navel personnel and the Grand Moth himself while also destroying the one thing that could assure order in the galaxy for the first time in thousands of years.

So would you be ok with your country's government, blowing up the city you live in, because there is possibly, maybe a cell or two of a terrorist organization living there? You think that's ok? And you'd be fine with that? Instead of you know, rooting out the actual threat.
You feel it's a justified action to kill 99% innocent lives, to make sure you get that small fraction of people who are your rivals? I hope you never run for some political office, because that is some seriously fucked up thinking.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

We knew that that planet was supporting the Rebellion (and ironically whether it be the Star Wars EU or Canon, both have reinforced this point), and given the danger that was posed by the Death Star plans being in the hands of religious terrorists, the acts done towards the ends of finding them and the Rebel base where justified, and ironically vindicated given they managed to kill hundreds of thousands of Imperial navel personnel and the Grand Moth himself while also destroying the one thing that could assure order in the galaxy for the first time in thousands of years.

We know that some of the Alderaan nobility were supporting the Rebels. The Empire did not know that. Tarkin knew that Alderaan wasn't a military target, and destroyed it as a show of force after believing Leia's lie about the rebels being on Dantooine. And if you're worried about freedom fighters stealing your doombase plans, maybe don't build a doombase using slavery and coercion with the intent of blowing up planets to rule the galaxy through fear! That the rebellion managed to destroy a military target that had just been used to murder billions doesn't justify the murder of billions. The Death Star wasn't going to bring order to the galaxy. Hell, the destruction of Alderaan and the Empire's role in it is what gave the Rebellion the true legitimacy. That's the point that previously neutral or even Imperial planets and personnel started defecting en mass.

And the cherry on top of the shit pile that was the Death Star, you've got a heap of dead Jawas and a couple dead relatives who had no beef with the Empire. What were they going to do if left alive, wonder what the fuss over a couple of droids was?

 

[Breakdown]

Everybody's assuming that the Empire killed the Jawas. Maybe there was just a really bad fire on their Sandcrawler?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Everybody's assuming that the Empire killed the Jawas. Maybe there was just a really bad fire on their Sandcrawler?

It was a bunch of sand raiders walking shoulder-to-shoulder to make it look like Stormtroopers were making it look like sand raiders.

A classic gambit.

 

[irishda]

I look at it as the way Star Wars should've been from the beginning. It basically steals the plot from New Hope (which is a funny critique considering how many people were asking for something similar back before the movie came out), but then it's also one of the best directed and acted movies out of the whole series. There's a reason almost every competent actor in the OG trilogy hated those movies by an incredible amount.

So while it has its criticisms, I like it a lot more than the other Star Wars movies.

 

[Zontar]

but then it's also one of the best directed and acted movies out of the whole series. There's a reason almost every competent actor in the OG trilogy hated those movies by an incredible amount.

Directed, maybe, acted though, that it was definitely on par with the prequels. I mean for got sake one of the leads has her default appearance be a fishface. Though the writing, dialogue and completely incoherent plot is the real problem with the movie.

I'd also like to point out the only "competent" actor who didn't like the OG trilogy was Sir Alec Guinness and Harrison Ford (and even then Ford agreed to be in the third one despite not having a contractual obligation to do so). Peter Cushing stated that he loved working on it and wished his character hadn't died since he couldn't play the character again as a result (if only he knew), and James Earl Jones seems to love voicing Vader.

 

[Zontar]

There are only two genuinely competent people in the Empire of the old cannon: Admiral Thrawn and Gilad Pellaeon

To be fair, that's still one more competent leader then the Rebellion/Republic could muster. The setting as a whole doesn't have a high level of military or governance competency, which makes the fact the Republic lasted 25,000 years and survived multiple galaxy spanning wars and at least one foreign occupation amazing given it was always a house of cards.

So would you be ok with your country's government, blowing up the city you live in, because there is possibly, maybe a cell or two of a terrorist organization living there?

Keep in mind that this was the government of this hypothetical city that was supporting this terrorist group, one which did manage to use those supplies to destroy a military instillation which would have its destruction realistically plunged the galaxy into an economic depression so large and long lasting even by the time of TFA it wouldn't realistically have been recovered from.

[We know that some of the Alderaan nobility were supporting the Rebels. The Empire did not know that.

They literally captured one of the highest members of that nobility, first in line to the throne, with an intercepted transmission with the stolen plans to the DS-1 Battle Station. In Canon it's even worst now since they did so while being seen running away from a battle that was the single largest assault by the Rebellion ever, which saw the deployment and destruction of most of the Rebel fleet.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Everybody's assuming that the Empire killed the Jawas. Maybe there was just a really bad fire on their Sandcrawler?

It was a bunch of sand raiders walking shoulder-to-shoulder to make it look like Stormtroopers were making it look like sand raiders.

A classic gambit.

Ah, but only stormtroopers are as precise with their blaster fire.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

They literally captured one of the highest members of that nobility, first in line to the throne, with an intercepted transmission with the stolen plans to the DS-1 Battle Station. In Canon it's even worst now since they did so while being seen running away from a battle that was the single largest assault by the Rebellion ever, which saw the deployment and destruction of most of the Rebel fleet.

You realize that this is the equivalent of the US capturing one Chinese spy in the 60's, with US atomic bomb schematics, and deciding to nuke the entire country because "apparently the Chinese don't like the USA", right? Even if said Chinese spy was the son of the Chinese Prime Minister, it would still be a grossly exaggerated use of force that would cause staggering amounts of collateral casualties in a population where most would have done nothing more wrong then being born in the wrong place.

The Empire is a literal expy of the Nazis, how anyone could try to justify their (cartoon-level exaggerated) atrocities is beyond me. It won't stop me from rolling Darth Vader, Soontir Fel and Tie Fighter support in X-Wing, but let's not pretend as if Tarkin has any point beyond twirling his metaphorical mustache of evil when he orders the destruction of Alderaan. The entire scene is meant to show the audience just how callously evil the Empire is, and anyone who comes away from Rogue One/A New Hope with the idea that Tarkin has a point and the Death Star is a 'stabilizer' in galactic politics should probably consider re-visiting the movies and/or their own political motivations.

 

[happyninja42]

So would you be ok with your country's government, blowing up the city you live in, because there is possibly, maybe a cell or two of a terrorist organization living there?

Keep in mind that this was the government of this hypothetical city that was supporting this terrorist group, one which did manage to use those supplies to destroy a military instillation which would have its destruction realistically plunged the galaxy into an economic depression so large and long lasting even by the time of TFA it wouldn't realistically have been recovered from.

Keep in mind, that the people in that hypothetical city did NOT blow up your military installation. That was in fact, a completely different group of people who were resisting you. An attack that was fueled and backed (by more people), by your reckless destruction of an entire city to stamp out a small group of dissidents. You don't get to retroactively justify killing a planet because the people they allied with ended up blowing up your shiny toy. You killed them unprovoked.

And I noticed you didn't actually answer my question. Would YOU be ok with your government, or hell, an OUTSIDE force in this example, blowing up your entire city that you currently live in, right now, because of what your mayor thinks? Or not even the mayor, just the fact that a handful (because we have no confirmation of how many people on the entire fucking planet were actually supporting the rebel effort, but I can guarantee it's not 100%, it's never 100% anything) of people in your city are actively resisting some government. Would you be ok with that? Would you think that was a fair and just result? That you look up, right now, from wherever you are sitting reading this sentence, and see death coming from the sky, to wipe out your entire city, for the crimes of another person? Do you think that is a fair and just policy of behavior for a government to use when dealing with threats?

 

[Breakdown]

Everybody's assuming that the Empire killed the Jawas. Maybe there was just a really bad fire on their Sandcrawler?

It was a bunch of sand raiders walking shoulder-to-shoulder to make it look like Stormtroopers were making it look like sand raiders.

A classic gambit.

Ah, but only stormtroopers are as precise with their blaster fire.

Watching that scene again, I can't help feeling that Obi Wan Kenobi is just making shit up to impress Luke.

 

[Natemans]

Everybody's assuming that the Empire killed the Jawas. Maybe there was just a really bad fire on their Sandcrawler?

It was a bunch of sand raiders walking shoulder-to-shoulder to make it look like Stormtroopers were making it look like sand raiders.

A classic gambit.

Ah, but only stormtroopers are as precise with their blaster fire.

I've worn a stormtrooper once that I bought for a convention. Dude, no wonder they suck. Couldn't see a damn thing in those things. All of that money to make great weapons and ships yet can't get decent helmets to aim better?

Watching that scene again, I can't help feeling that Obi Wan Kenobi is just making shit up to impress Luke.

 

[twistedmic]

We knew that that planet was supporting the Rebellion (and ironically whether it be the Star Wars EU or Canon, both have reinforced this point), and given the danger that was posed by the Death Star plans being in the hands of religious terrorists, the acts done towards the ends of finding them and the Rebel base where justified, and ironically vindicated given they managed to kill hundreds of thousands of Imperial navel personnel and the Grand Moth himself while also destroying the one thing that could assure order in the galaxy for the first time in thousands of years.

Please explain to me why Finn is a war criminal for killing, at most, seven unarmed tower crew members yet the Empire is not evil when they eradicate an entire non-military planet that had no discernible defenses (shields or weapons) and had absolutely no chance to surrender or evacuate. Also explain how killing and torturing unarmed prisoners (who had surrendered), and killing unarmed civilians (Owen, Beru and the Jawas) are not evil acts.
And finally, please give a valid and non-evil reason to build a weapon capable of utterly destroying an entire planet.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

The vast majority of the people he killed when trying to escape where unarmed deck hands and a tower crew who where no threat to him and had no ability to defend themselves. Under current international law regarding war he'd be considered a war criminal.

Not really. A uniformed combatant does not need to be armed with a personal weapon to be a legitimate target, if their role in the organization means they are crewing or maintaining a larger weapons platform. As such killing deck hands on a military vessel while trying to escape is completely alright, as they are keeping the Star Destroyer and/or its' TIE fighters functional. Had they taken steps to show their intent to surrender it would be illegal, but none of them does. The people in the tower also explicitly try to stop the escape by operating in their capacity of communications and logistics specialists, which makes them legitimate targets.

If your interpretation of international law was correct, it'd be a war crime to sink any ship where everyone in the crew didn't have access to a personal defense weapon. It isn't, as the ship itself is the weapon and anyone aboard is counted as servicing the weapon. The only exemptions to these rules are medical personnel (including field medics) and chaplains, who are to be easily identified via designs on their uniforms, but even they are considered acceptable collateral damage if aboard military vessels or near military targets during combat or when attacked by weapons that doesn't discriminate between victims, such as artillery and grenades.

As for the threat part: Poe was exercising his legal right to try and escape and evade capture (as provisioned in the Geneva convention, all PoWs have the right to try and escape captivity and return to their own military), which means that anyone that can undo his escape attempt and belong to the military of the enemy is a threat to him in that situation. Even if they are unarmed, they can call on reinforcements that are not and as such they constitute a) a uniformed combatant and b) a threat to Poe's mission which makes them legitimate targets.

 

[Natemans]

It wasn't good, for me it is the definition of making a film by commitee. No chances whatsoever with nearly everything stolen from the older movies. I'd rather watch The Phantom Menace since it at least tried.

I don't. Phantom Menace felt very forced, bland and downright boring to sit through.