The Force Awakens question

[bastardofmelbourne]

I really liked TFA. I grok the common criticism that it's a rehash of Ep. IV, but that doesn't bother me nearly as much as it seems to bother other people.

I mean, the fans basically said "We Want More Star Wars," and they were given more Star Wars. Then afterwards they suddenly wanted something different...?

 

[Winnosh]

Still like it. Actually prefer it to Rogue One. Less annoyances and less horrible retcons as well.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Don't find Rey to be any more a Mary Sue than any other Star Wars protagonist,

I mean, I'll give you Anakin, but being a Sue was a big part of Anakin's character. There's even a trope named after it! The Paragon Always Rebels. But Luke!?

Luke was pretty much the whipping boy of his first movie! He had to be rescued three times, Once from Sandpeople, and twice on he Death Star run (the last two also show that while he may be a decent enough pilot, he's still nowhere near an expert level yet.), his big moments with the force were blocking blaster shots (which episode 2 showed was something most force using toddlers could do) and making a hard shot (which he not only said was a shot that wasn't impossible, but was made into something anyone could've done due to certain revelations made in Rogue 1), pretty much the only people who don't bust his chops on a regular basis are C-3P0 who's a massive suck up by nature, and Obi-Wan who has bigger plans for him, and his big moment would've ended in his death if Han Solo hadn't made a surprise appearance!

Rey in comparison? She only really needs rescuing ONCE from the Star Killer base and she was already in the process of saving herself when it happened AND it served as a plot device that led to the day being saved, (Luke could've met Obi-Wan without getting attacked by Tusken Raiders, but if Rey hadn't been kidnapped Finn would've left the plot, and the plan to assault the Star Killer would've never gotten off the ground.), her big moments with the force started with piloting the Melenium Falcon (easily the second most awkwardly designed ship in the galaxy) through an obstacle course full of tight corridors while being shot at by a bunch of TIE fighters, moved up to the freaking mind trick of all things (something that only Jedi Masters had been seen pulling off before) and that Force Second wind against Kylo Ren (I'm letting the telekinesis off if only because Clone Wars showed that force sensitive babies could pull that off.), and pretty much everyone she meets adores her (Han warmed up to her a heck of a lot faster than he ever did with Luke, and Finn was just about ready to propose to her despite her nearly killing him twice, only one of which was accidental)

The only protagonists who really come close to Rey's level of Sue are videogame characters, and even then the standards are different for that sort of thing.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I mean, I'll give you Anakin, but being a Sue was a big part of Anakin's character. There's even a trope named after it! The Paragon Always Rebels. But Luke!?

Luke was pretty much the whipping boy of his first movie! He had to be rescued three times, Once from Sandpeople, and twice on he Death Star run (the last two also show that while he may be a decent enough pilot, he's still nowhere near an expert level yet.), his big moments with the force were blocking blaster shots (which episode 2 showed was something most force using toddlers could do) and making a hard shot (which he not only said was a shot that wasn't impossible, but was made into something anyone could've done due to certain revelations made in Rogue 1), pretty much the only people who don't bust his chops on a regular basis are C-3P0 who's a massive suck up by nature, and Obi-Wan who has bigger plans for him, and his big moment would've ended in his death if Han Solo hadn't made a surprise appearance!

Rey in comparison? She only really needs rescuing ONCE from the Star Killer base and she was already in the process of saving herself when it happened AND it served as a plot device that led to the day being saved, (Luke could've met Obi-Wan without getting attacked by Tusken Raiders, but if Rey hadn't been kidnapped Finn would've left the plot, and the plan to assault the Star Killer would've never gotten off the ground.), her big moments with the force started with piloting the Melenium Falcon (easily the second most awkwardly designed ship in the galaxy) through an obstacle course full of tight corridors while being shot at by a bunch of TIE fighters, moved up to the freaking mind trick of all things (something that only Jedi Masters had been seen pulling off before) and that Force Second wind against Kylo Ren (I'm letting the telekinesis off if only because Clone Wars showed that force sensitive babies could pull that off.), and pretty much everyone she meets adores her (Han warmed up to her a heck of a lot faster than he ever did with Luke, and Finn was just about ready to propose to her despite her nearly killing him twice, only one of which was accidental)

The only protagonists who really come close to Rey's level of Sue are videogame characters, and even then the standards are different for that sort of thing.

Luke is the guy who hits an unaimed shot with proton torpedoes against a target that's so small that even veteran combat pilots claim that it is impossible. Let's not diminish just how awesome nailing that shot actually is. On top of that he advances from having flown a recreational speeder to piloting an X-wing with such skill that he's one of only three survivors of the Death Star run, the other two being Wedge m-fing Antilles and an unnamed Y-wing pilot that had to pull out due to sustaining too much damage. He also manages to guilt trip Han Solo into returning at a critical moment. Not to mention his ability to grasp how to use a laser turret to destroy multiple TIE fighters the second time he gets aboard the Falcon. And that's just A New Hope, the later movies plays him up even more.

Sure, Luke is not as Mary Sue-ish as Rey or Anakin, but he's not that far off (especially in episodes V and VI). Anakin is arguably the most Sue-ish of the three though, since he's essentially a plot hole walking, where the plot bends around him so that he can keep doing whatever he does without anyone ever reacting to his increasingly psychopathic behavior. You'd think that someone would react to him disobeying a direct order through word play in Episode 1, or that someone would lock him into Jedi solitary after killing all those Tusken in Episode 2 (or after seducing Padm? or after disobeying another explicit order through wordplay to get a shot at killing the Tusken to begin with), but no. Rey has a lot of power and is instantly liked by pretty much everyone she meets, which sure qualifies her for Sue status, but it is a plot point at least (her extreme force sensitivity is what makes Kylo/Snoke interested in her and why she seeks out Luke). Anakin has all that and the writers fiat to constantly escape the consequences of his stupid/evil/rash actions, which is the mark of an extraordinary Mary Sue.

EDIT: And technically, the Jedi Mind trick was used by Luke in early Episode VI before he was even considered a fully trained Jedi. It is not the mark of a Jedi Master as much as something that most Jedis learn to do at some point.

 

[circularlogic88]

Don't find Rey to be any more a Mary Sue than any other Star Wars protagonist,

I mean, I'll give you Anakin, but being a Sue was a big part of Anakin's character. There's even a trope named after it! The Paragon Always Rebels. But Luke!?

Luke was pretty much the whipping boy of his first movie! He had to be rescued three times, Once from Sandpeople, and twice on he Death Star run (the last two also show that while he may be a decent enough pilot, he's still nowhere near an expert level yet.), his big moments with the force were blocking blaster shots (which episode 2 showed was something most force using toddlers could do) and making a hard shot (which he not only said was a shot that wasn't impossible, but was made into something anyone could've done due to certain revelations made in Rogue 1), pretty much the only people who don't bust his chops on a regular basis are C-3P0 who's a massive suck up by nature, and Obi-Wan who has bigger plans for him, and his big moment would've ended in his death if Han Solo hadn't made a surprise appearance!

Rey in comparison? She only really needs rescuing ONCE from the Star Killer base and she was already in the process of saving herself when it happened AND it served as a plot device that led to the day being saved, (Luke could've met Obi-Wan without getting attacked by Tusken Raiders, but if Rey hadn't been kidnapped Finn would've left the plot, and the plan to assault the Star Killer would've never gotten off the ground.), her big moments with the force started with piloting the Melenium Falcon (easily the second most awkwardly designed ship in the galaxy) through an obstacle course full of tight corridors while being shot at by a bunch of TIE fighters, moved up to the freaking mind trick of all things (something that only Jedi Masters had been seen pulling off before) and that Force Second wind against Kylo Ren (I'm letting the telekinesis off if only because Clone Wars showed that force sensitive babies could pull that off.), and pretty much everyone she meets adores her (Han warmed up to her a heck of a lot faster than he ever did with Luke, and Finn was just about ready to propose to her despite her nearly killing him twice, only one of which was accidental)

The only protagonists who really come close to Rey's level of Sue are videogame characters, and even then the standards are different for that sort of thing.

Pretty much. I became bored with Rey by the end of the film. She just didn't strike me as being very compelling and her seeming mastery over every task set out before her with no explanation just annoyed me.

Visually the movie was good, but narratively, it was kinda all over the place. Who are the First Order? How have they amassed such resources to not only sustain a functioning military regime without the need for clone troopers (stealing children is bullshit) but also commission the hollowing out of an entire planet and still somehow keep this operation a secret? Who would support them outside of their organization? Especially after destroying several planets filled with precious resources? Why are they blowing up planets with a Death Star Shotgun? Why is there a Resistance in place when the Republic is in control? Shouldn't the Republic have it's own form of military protection for its planets, you know, like the Old Republic or even the Rebellion forces they amassed together to fight the Empire? It's almost like they're asking to be challenged by opposing forces at that point. So wait, Jakku is on lockdown but we're supposed to take it as read that Poe is able to get off planet and back to the base by himself? Why couldn't we have seen that? Or alternatively, why couldn't he have been with Rey and Finn the whole time? Leave the piloting to him, have Rey keep the ship together and have Finn shoot. Why does everything have to tie back to the Skywalkers? Most importantly, why doesn't the movie tell us any of this?

Just didn't particularly enjoy it all that much. Too many questions for me. I'm the minority though. I know it. I don't watch movies like most people. I just can't shut off my brain.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Why is there a Resistance in place when the Republic is in control?

Well, after a successful revolution, not uncommon for the revolutionaries to disagree about who gets to be in power.

I seriously doubt that's what they are going for, but it's the only way a new Resistance and a new government that were working together at least once makes sense.

 

[circularlogic88]

Why is there a Resistance in place when the Republic is in control?

Well, after a successful revolution, not uncommon for the revolutionaries to disagree about who gets to be in power.

I seriously doubt that's what they are going for, but it's the only way a new Resistance and a new government that were working together at least once makes sense.

See, this is where I was confused. Because the movie doesn't explain it, but others had told me that the Republic had commissioned the Resistance to fight against the First Order, which would mean the Resistance would have been essentially a commissioned militia of the Republic. If tha were the case, then why not just call them the Militia? I don't know if any of this is true, but if it is then it's the same problem I had with the prequels where you had to look at material outside of the movies in order for the movies to make narrative sense. And I might be wrong for thinking this, but I'm of the mind that a movie should be able to stand on its own and I don't think TFA can without ancillary sources outside of the movie narrative.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

See, this is where I was confused. Because the movie doesn't explain it, but others had told me that the Republic had commissioned the Resistance to fight against the First Order, which would mean the Resistance would have been essentially a commissioned militia of the Republic. If tha were the case, then why not just call them the Militia? I don't know if any of this is true, but if it is then it's the same problem I had with the prequels where you had to look at material outside of the movies in order for the movies to make narrative sense. And I might be wrong for thinking this, but I'm of the mind that a movie should be able to stand on its own and I don't think TFA can without ancillary sources outside of the movie narrative.

That's the truth. A lot of the backstory to TFA is in supporting material, like comic books, tie-in books etc.. In one way I am sort of glad it is because the movie would have dragged down immensely if they tried explaining it all there, in another it also means that some things come off as pretty iffy.

As for the Resistance, they are pretty much the people who wanted to keep fighting the Imperial Remnant after the truce/peace was signed. So they are scraping by mostly on private donations and some minor secret funding to remain a thorn in the side of the First Order. You could liken them to Che Guevara and his professional revolutionaries, after Cuba was won they moved to other countries to try and bring Communism there too, in part because Castro and Guevara had different ideas on how to administer Cuba. In this case, the Resistance keeps fighting because they feel there can be no peace with the First Order, a sentiment not shared by the Republic. At least until Starkiller base does its' thing.

 

[circularlogic88]

See, this is where I was confused. Because the movie doesn't explain it, but others had told me that the Republic had commissioned the Resistance to fight against the First Order, which would mean the Resistance would have been essentially a commissioned militia of the Republic. If tha were the case, then why not just call them the Militia? I don't know if any of this is true, but if it is then it's the same problem I had with the prequels where you had to look at material outside of the movies in order for the movies to make narrative sense. And I might be wrong for thinking this, but I'm of the mind that a movie should be able to stand on its own and I don't think TFA can without ancillary sources outside of the movie narrative.

That's the truth. A lot of the backstory to TFA is in supporting material, like comic books, tie-in books etc.. In one way I am sort of glad it is because the movie would have dragged down immensely if they tried explaining it all there, in another it also means that some things come off as pretty iffy.

As for the Resistance, they are pretty much the people who wanted to keep fighting the Imperial Remnant after the truce/peace was signed. So they are scraping by mostly on private donations and some minor secret funding to remain a thorn in the side of the First Order. You could liken them to Che Guevara and his professional revolutionaries, after Cuba was won they moved to other countries to try and bring Communism there too, in part because Castro and Guevara had different ideas on how to administer Cuba. In this case, the Resistance keeps fighting because they feel there can be no peace with the First Order, a sentiment not shared by the Republic. At least until Starkiller base does its' thing.

Thank you for clarifying that. I really appreciate it.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

But Luke!?

Yeah, Luke. The country boy who out fights Storm Troopers, knows how to pilot an X-Wing, and makes a shot without mechanical aid that trained bomber pilots and Red Leader couldn't which negates that "anyone could've done it" argument quite handily. Don't mix up country boy boasting for actual technical skill.

And Rey, who's big claim to fame is take a durable freighter and not bumping into too many things while Finn shoots down a couple TIE:FOs that aren't trying to shoot them down (Seriously, she scraps it along the ground at one point. Pro pilot she is not).

Oh, and she learns the mind trick, which just about any Jedi worth their salt could use on a low willpower storm trooper. (Edit: I'm gonna expand on this. Rey learns that the force can be used to override someone's willpower after having a dark sided apprentice who isn't very good at it use it on her, and then, after failing on a Stormtrooper, eventually gets it to work)

So no, I don't find Rey to be any more of a Sue than any other Star Wars protagonist, and you're just gonna have to deal with someone else's subjective opinion being different then your own.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

I don't hate it but I find it more forgettable as time goes on. Sure I liked what they did with set design and all the little details (BB8 is a fine addition) but I feel less invested in it than I did for Rogue One. I'm sure all the plot things happening in The Last Jedi will be more interesting. At least I hope so. VII was just kinda blaise with its notadeathstar sequence.

My thoughts. I adore Star Wars but I'm not going to work hard to defend the faults of Force Awakens. I just don't have the energy, I'll let the fanatical side of the fanbase do that for me.

 

[Thaluikhain]

As for the Resistance, they are pretty much the people who wanted to keep fighting the Imperial Remnant after the truce/peace was signed. So they are scraping by mostly on private donations and some minor secret funding to remain a thorn in the side of the First Order. You could liken them to Che Guevara and his professional revolutionaries, after Cuba was won they moved to other countries to try and bring Communism there too, in part because Castro and Guevara had different ideas on how to administer Cuba. In this case, the Resistance keeps fighting because they feel there can be no peace with the First Order, a sentiment not shared by the Republic. At least until Starkiller base does its' thing.

So the Republic has signed a peace treaty with the First Order, but is covertly funding people to attack them?

Where's Zontar gone to?

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

So the Republic has signed a peace treaty with the First Order, but is covertly funding people to attack them?

I think the idea was that the Republic saw the First Order as the Star Wars version of North Korea; a near-irrelevant rump state in an impoverished part of the galaxy that talks a big game but is mostly hot air. Until they perfect their nukes Starkiller Base, and the Republic has just enough time to go "oh shit" before the heart of their government is obliterated.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

So the Republic has signed a peace treaty with the First Order, but is covertly funding people to attack them?

Where's Zontar gone to?

As far as I got it, it was more like letting the Resistance keep an eye on them and fight them off when they, invariably, tried to venture beyond their own borders or cause problems for the Republic. But yeah, the entire thing does not exactly paint the Republic in the best of lights, because they come off as both incredibly negligent and pretty shady and spiteful, both at once.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

I went from being skeptical to excited when the trailers came out. It seemed like there was a great film on offer with a mix of new characters and classic Star Wars tropes.

Then I saw the film, and I was thoroughly unimpressed.

Spoiler

It is literally a remake of A New Hope. The bones of the plot are the same, the character arcs are basically the same, the set piece action scenes are set up in exactly the same way. Even the existing characters basically just end up becoming the older archetypes from the first film. Han is Obi Wan, Luke is Yoda, Leia is Mon Mothma. I had heard some people saying there were similarities, but I wasn't expecting the totally not Imperials to hunt for totally not R2D2 on totally not Tatooine. Christ, The Phantom Menace was more original!

That raises an interesting point. The Phantom Menace was considered a bad film because Lucas injected so many terrible and unwanted elements - Jar Jar, midichlorians, Jake Lloyd etc. It made fans wish it had never existed. The Force Awakens is the polar opposite: it's a take-no-chances affair crafted around the philosophy that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But it left me feeling like I'd prefer it not to exist, because it's as if nothing in the original trilogy matters. The new Empire has a Death Star yet again. The Republic can be more or less wiped out instantly, and they're back to being 'rebels'. The Sith are in control, and the only Jedi are either in hiding or untrained.

I never thought I'd say this, but there is a whole heap of the Extended Universe that is objectively better than what Disney and Abrams served up.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

I loved it. I thought the movie got better with each of the three viewings I saw in the theater. And I think you can say a lot of things about the film and its plot holes, convenient story development and similarities to A New Hope, but one thing I don't think can be criticized (at least well) is the casting. I think they absolutely hit a home run with the "next generation" in Ridley, Boyega and Driver (and Oscar Isaac too). And I thought the movie had more heart than Rogue One, and it's not even close. I don't even remember the names of the characters in Rogue One, and I found them and the movie overall largely forgettable.

The Phantom Menace was considered a bad film because Lucas injected so many terrible and unwanted elements - Jar Jar, midichlorians, Jake Lloyd etc. It made fans wish it had never existed. The Force Awakens is the polar opposite: it's a take-no-chances affair crafted around the philosophy that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Two thoughts:
1) The Phantom Menace is the best of the prequel trilogy by a country mile, which may not be saying much, but still...
2) I disagree with your assessment on The Force Awakens not taking chances. First, the movie reintroduces the franchise's most beloved hero in Han Solo as a reclusive burnout and failed father/husband. THEN the movie kills him off -- not in some cheesy heroic climax, but in a bleak, failed attempt to save his son from the dark side. And overall, instead of showing Luke, Leia and Han living happily ever after defeating the Empire/Emperor, the movie has their lives in relative shambles: Luke as a hermit in hiding, Leia alone with a broken family, and of course the aforementioned Han. That's not exactly the dark turn that a lot of fans were expecting. So yes, it's similar to A New Hope, but it most definitely takes chances and goes places that George Lucas NEVER in a million years would have gone.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

But Luke!?

Yeah, Luke. The country boy who out fights Storm Troopers, knows how to pilot an X-Wing, and makes a shot without mechanical aid that trained bomber pilots and Red Leader couldn't which negates that "anyone could've done it" argument quite handily. Don't mix up country boy boasting for actual technical skill.

And Rey, who's big claim to fame is take a durable freighter and not bumping into too many things while Finn shoots down a couple TIE:FOs that aren't trying to shoot them down (Seriously, she scraps it along the ground at one point. Pro pilot she is not).

Oh, and she learns the mind trick, which just about any Jedi worth their salt could use on a low willpower storm trooper. (Edit: I'm gonna expand on this. Rey learns that the force can be used to override someone's willpower after having a dark sided apprentice who isn't very good at it use it on her, and then, after failing on a Stormtrooper, eventually gets it to work)

So no, I don't find Rey to be any more of a Sue than any other Star Wars protagonist, and you're just gonna have to deal with someone else's subjective opinion being different then your own.

Number one, EVERYONE except those rebels at the start outfights Stormtroopers, and in Episode 4, The Empire was TRYING to make sure they escaped so they could track them to the rebel base. It makes SENSE there that the Troopers aren't doing too hot. Not to mention Red leader screwing up the shot was listed as a technical issue due to the computers being faulty, not because of a failing on their part.

(In addition, Farmboy? Yeah. A farmboy on a planet with a bunch of mobsters, criminals, and Tusken Raiders running around. I'm SURE Luke never had to fight before.)

Also, you're just going to write off Rey's piloting like that? She flew a VERY awkwardly designed ship that was stated to NEED a co-pilot single handily, through a ton of tight twists and turns while flying at extremely high speeds and being shot at. That's a bit more than "not bumping into too many things". And that rough take off? Oh yeah, that TOTALLY makes up for flying like an Ace with minimal experience.

Seriously, the scene in question.


Meanwhile Luke, who actually DOES have a degree of training was nearly shot down twice, once by a regular TIE fighter, on his big flight run.

And you're really gonna defend the mind trick with "Rey Ripped it out of Ren's head"? That just makes it even WORSE! She used an ability that no one had shown to even be possible to do that! Granted, Clone Wars did something similar with the interrogation of Cad Bane, but that ended up requiring three of the most powerful Jedi in the order to do (Primarily because Bane was just that strong willed) while Rey didn't even know the force was a THING till earlier that day! (And even if you're a supporter of the "Rey was Luke's student" theory, Kylo Ren has still received a LOT more training and experience than she ever could have.)

 

[Breakdown]

But Luke!?

Yeah, Luke. The country boy who out fights Storm Troopers.

Three foot tall teddie bears can outfight Storm Troopers, so that's not saying much...

Besides which, I'd guess that flying a fighter craft in space with an astrometric droid helping you out is easier than flying the derelict Millenium Falcon in an atmosphere, hugging the ground and weaving through the wrecks of Star Destroyers.

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent. And after spending so long searching for the map to Luke's location, why would the Resistance just let her go alone? It's just that everybody is obsessed with Rey the moment they meet her, because she's a Mary Sue character.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent.

Actually, that was the part that really got me for some reason. Sure, lots of things made no sense, but hang on, she's got the wrong accent.

Though, Earth accents for space people is an issue in of itself.