The Force Awakens question

[twistedmic]

Three foot tall teddie bears can outfight Storm Troopers, so that's not saying much...

The Ewoks had numbers and the home field advantage over the stormtroopers while using ambush tactics. Add to that the fact that Ewoks are clearly hunters and meat eaters (they planned on eating Han, Chewie and Luke after all) so clearly know how to kill living beings.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Two thoughts:
1) The Phantom Menace is the best of the prequel trilogy by a country mile, which may not be saying much, but still...
2) I disagree with your assessment on The Force Awakens not taking chances. First, the movie reintroduces the franchise's most beloved hero in Han Solo as a reclusive burnout and failed father/husband. THEN the movie kills him off -- not in some cheesy heroic climax, but in a bleak, failed attempt to save his son from the dark side. And overall, instead of showing Luke, Leia and Han living happily ever after defeating the Empire/Emperor, the movie has their lives in relative shambles: Luke as a hermit in hiding, Leia alone with a broken family, and of course the aforementioned Han. That's not exactly the dark turn that a lot of fans were expecting. So yes, it's similar to A New Hope, but it most definitely takes chances and goes places that George Lucas NEVER in a million years would have gone.

Thanks for the reply. I actually don't dislike The Phantom Menace, I loved it as a 12 year old. It's more that some of the elements - particularly the midichlorians - put me off when I was older.

I don't think what they do to Han, Luke and Leia can be considered 'taking chances' because as I said earlier, they just take on the same roles as other characters in the original trilogy. When I say 'taking chances', I mean not relying on basically the same plot setup they use before, ie bad guys in box seat with WMDs, rebels on run, Jedi barely existing. No, a film taking some chances would have told a story that doesn't unfold in the same way. For all the crap associated with The Phantom Menace, at least that film had a different spin - the Jedi are the 'UN peacekeepers' of the galaxy, the Sith are working through proxies, the Republic's bureaucracy is unwittingly bringing about its own downfall.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent.

I think canonically, it's just a "core worlds" accent.

Though that still doesn't make any sense because Rey was raised on a desert shithole her entire life.

 

[twistedmic]

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent.

I think canonically, it's just a "core worlds" accent.

Though that still doesn't make any sense because Rey was raised on a desert shithole her entire life.

Unkar Plutt had the same accent, and it was implied via force flashback that he was Rey's guardian after she was left on Jakku.

 

[Natemans]

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent.

I think canonically, it's just a "core worlds" accent.

Though that still doesn't make any sense because Rey was raised on a desert shithole her entire life.

Eh... She was like seven when they left her there. Seven years is enough time to learn a dialect.

That and I always thought she learned different languages based on the the fact that Unkar Plutt's base has tons of different species show up often from ships and also the ships she scavenges has tons of backed-up databanks.

 

[Callate]

I enjoyed it well enough. I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more than I enjoyed Rogue One, honestly. There are a few things I could have done without, like revealing that Finn was a janitor- it seemed as though the desire to make Rey this awesome Jedi-to-be came somewhat at Finn's expense, when he could have received more respect from the script leading off from his conscious decision to defect from the First Order. And to be clear, I like Rey well enough for herself; I just worry that the movies may be so determined to beat the "strong female lead!" drum that she'll become their Mary Sue. For all the echoes of the original Star Wars (I'm not going to call it "A New Hope", thank ye) consider where Luke was at the end-point of the first movie... He'd just blown up the Death Star, yes, but he only escaped being shot out of the sky because of an ally's timely intervention, and there was little sense that everything was riding on his shoulders alone, or that he was such a superhero that that was a reasonable assumption.

Star Wars was at some pains to make it clear that the smart response to the Big Bad coming on the scene was to run. Rey has already kicked the Big Bad's ass. And maybe Snoke, our Emperor stand-in, will come back swinging, but right now... The biggest thing the First Order has going for them is that they managed to field the Death Star squared, at least until the Resistance came in and did the Rebellion thing.

And, yeah, there is that- a bit of the "Like the originals, but BIGGER" thing.

Still, I don't mean to come across as overly negative. I did like a lot of things. They handled the re-introduction of Han and Leia pretty well (I know a lot of people in my audience applauded their arrival.) I generally like the new characters, including Kylo Ren, for all that he isn't exactly making me quiver in my boots. The special effects were well done, and well integrated, managing to wow without too much of the "Hey, look! Computer-generated special effects!" hokum that plagues a lot of "tentpole" movies. The emotional moments felt earned. BB-8 is adorable, and he (she? it?) doesn't come with the baggage of a bunch of abilities he mysteriously lost between movies and at least one scene of callous indifference to his closest companion's life.

I don't think it's the greatest Star Wars movie evah, but I do think it's a Star Wars movie, and more so that can be said of Lucas' second run at the subject. And that's no small achievement.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

(In addition, Farmboy? Yeah. A farmboy on a planet with a bunch of mobsters, criminals, and Tusken Raiders running around. I'm SURE Luke never had to fight before.)

Yeahh, he did great with that tuskan raider...

Meanwhile Luke, who actually DOES have a degree of training was nearly shot down twice, once by a regular TIE fighter, on his big flight run.

Yeah, and the TIE:FOs chasing Rey were specifically not killing them. Turns out that when the bad guys are actually trying to kill people, they almost get the country boy who's taking his first ride in a military starfighter.

And you're really gonna defend the mind trick with "Rey Ripped it out of Ren's head"? That just makes it even WORSE! She used an ability that no one had shown to even be possible to do that! Granted, Clone Wars did something similar with the interrogation of Cad Bane, but that ended up requiring three of the most powerful Jedi in the order to do (Primarily because Bane was just that strong willed) while Rey didn't even know the force was a THING till earlier that day! (And even if you're a supporter of the "Rey was Luke's student" theory, Kylo Ren has still received a LOT more training and experience than she ever could have.)

"Nobody's ever done that, except this situation which was similar". Yeah, that convinced me. Never mind it was a darksider apprentice, and not a particularly good darksider apprentice. Add in the fact that darksiders are almost universally bad at the mind-based stuff and you get a Rey who know knows something is possible and manages to use it on the perfect test target after initially failing.

Besides which, I'd guess that flying a fighter craft in space with an astrometric droid helping you out is easier than flying the derelict Millenium Falcon in an atmosphere, hugging the ground and weaving through the wrecks of Star Destroyers.

Yeah, there weren't any experienced starfighter pilots running into terrain above Yavin at all. Never mind an active battle where the bad guys were actually trying to kill them, when that wasn't the case on Jakku.

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent. And after spending so long searching for the map to Luke's location, why would the Resistance just let her go alone? It's just that everybody is obsessed with Rey the moment they meet her, because she's a Mary Sue character.

That's how General Leia rolls, man. I mean, their entire "take out Starkiller base" plan was based on a First Order defector with a stupid idea partnering with a crazy smuggler who can do the impossible.

Maybe Pulp Space Opera just isn't for you?

@thebothofyou: Don't mistake over 30 years of advances in CGI and choreography for advances in character skill. Just like how the prequel tech wasn't better than original trilogy tech, just shinier.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Not to mention Red leader screwing up the shot was listed as a technical issue due to the computers being faulty, not because of a failing on their part.

a) This is not mentioned in the movies, but in what is now Legends material and thus not canon.
b) The small size of the target and the impossibility of hitting it is actually a plot point brought up in the pre-attack briefing by the veteran pilots at hand. To this Luke replies that he shot Womp rats from his air speeder back home.

(In addition, Farmboy? Yeah. A farmboy on a planet with a bunch of mobsters, criminals, and Tusken Raiders running around. I'm SURE Luke never had to fight before.)

You mean like Rey, who was a scavenger on a planet full of cutthroat scavengers and the tyrannical merchants they sold their scrap to?

Also, you're just going to write off Rey's piloting like that? She flew a VERY awkwardly designed ship that was stated to NEED a co-pilot single handily, through a ton of tight twists and turns while flying at extremely high speeds and being shot at. That's a bit more than "not bumping into too many things". And that rough take off? Oh yeah, that TOTALLY makes up for flying like an Ace with minimal experience.

It might be worth remembering that the Millenium Falcon is actually a fast and nimble ship, despite its' size. Both Han and Lando pulled off some crazy flying with it (inside the Death Star 2, through an asteroid field and making a hard stop just beside the hull of a Star Destroyer so it could clamp onto it). Rey also mentions that she has flight experience, so in this regard she's no different from Luke. Both are pilots via informed ability.

Meanwhile Luke, who actually DOES have a degree of training was nearly shot down twice, once by a regular TIE fighter, on his big flight run.

You mean there's a difference between being chased by two fighters trying to force you to land and being in a battle with the full TIE fighter compliment of the Death Star? Gee Willikers!

And you're really gonna defend the mind trick with "Rey Ripped it out of Ren's head"? That just makes it even WORSE! She used an ability that no one had shown to even be possible to do that! Granted, Clone Wars did something similar with the interrogation of Cad Bane, but that ended up requiring three of the most powerful Jedi in the order to do (Primarily because Bane was just that strong willed) while Rey didn't even know the force was a THING till earlier that day! (And even if you're a supporter of the "Rey was Luke's student" theory, Kylo Ren has still received a LOT more training and experience than she ever could have.)

It is almost as if using Force powers is something that you can learn, say by watching someone else do it and then trying it yourself. Since the Force is essentially Space Magic, it makes perfect sense that Rey somehow understands what Kylo is doing on an instinctual level and then manages to do it herself. The other way of doing this is to complain about how Luke can suddenly pull things with the force in Episode V, despite not having had any formal training and never having even seen someone attempt to do it before. Yet he knows he can somehow pull the lightsaber to his hands when he's trapped in the ice cave.

As for Kylo Ren himself, it is patently obvious when you watch the movie that he's not as strong in the force as he wants to seem. He's especially bad at using the force when he becomes emotionally unbalanced, such as when Rey fights back during his mind probe and later during their duel. He's Snoke's apprentice and he serves as an inversion of Darth Vader; where Vader was a powerful force user in his own right, Ren is still learning and obviously lacks the power he wants to project. Not to mention how that scene serves to reinforce the fact that Kylo Ren is, at that point, still struggling with his temptation to go back to the light whereas Rey is determined to fight him and the First Order for all she is worth. That he fails to mind probe her highlights the difference in their resolve at that point.

 

[maninahat]

It doesn't even make sense that the Resistance would trust Rey. She's got a posh English accent, which everybody knows is the Empire accent.

Mon Mothma? Admiral Ackbar?

And Princess Leia, occasionally, in the first movie (sorry Carrie Fisher, you tried).

As to the inevitable Mary Sue question: Both Luke Skywalker and Rey exhibit standard lead character super powers: i.e. It's a given that the untrained, backwater kid will outshoot stormtroopers or beat tiefighter pilots in dogfights, despite that being implausible when you think about it for any length of time. People had been joking about the Empire over this fact for decades.

The important thing for a movie to do is convince you that the hero is facing a daunting threat or obstacle; one that makes them the underdog in any given situation. They only become Mary Sues when it is apparent they have full command over any situation. These movies have scenes were the hero does something implausibly heroic, like pulling off million to one shots, or win fencing duels (Luke managed to beat Vader after only his second ever lightsaber duel with a real person), but the point is that these moments come after watching various tense action scenes where they are about to die. These "Mary Sues" spend most of the movie running for their lives, hiding, crying, humiliated and generally being on the back foot. That Rey is quick on the uptake over Jedi magic or space ships doesn't do anything to change this.

 

[C14N]

So am I the only one who still really loves that movie or am I just too blinded by nostalgia to think its really good? I mean I do acknowledge the similarities it utilizes in it (though I wouldn't call it a remake nor rehash).

Also I really like the score and find it underrated.

No, I also really like The Force Awakens and didn't really care about the internet turning on it a week after it came out. Personally, I didn't grow up with Star Wars as a kid. I'm fairly sure I saw A New Hope and The Empire Strikes back at some points either on TV or VHS but I didn't understand them and didn't have any particular attachment. I saw all 3 of the prequels, but as a kid they pretty much flew completely over my head and I didn't understand much of the plot. Before TFA, I got the box set on Bluray, as much because of the cultural pressure of being a nerd and wanting to understand Star Wars references as anything else. I watched them, thought the originals were fairly good, and thought the prequels were pretty poor. I watched the Plinkett reviews too and enjoyed those.

So all that is to say that when I saw TFA, I knew Star Wars and thought it was a decent series, but I wasn't a "fan" and it wasn't tied up in a lot of nostalgia.

With all that said, TFA was easily my favourite film in the franchise. I think it's better than the originals in almost every way. I guess there was a large element of originality when the original films came about, but I've grown up in a world where Star Wars and the many other things it has influenced have always been a part of my life, so that never really mattered to me. In terms of the things that did like the direction, the writing, the acting, the cinematography and the effects, I thought it was a pretty superb film. It was accessible to newcomers while having some nice callbacks to the originals.

Like I said, I like the originals, but I don't think they're as sacred and fantastic as many others do. I enjoy them, but a lot of it is with a "this was of its time" kind of lens. I'm not just talking about special effects or anything either. I think the writing and acting are both a little cheesy and would look like a B-movie if released today. It's good, but it's aged.

I don't have TFA in my top 10 movies of all time or anything, and I'm not saying it was perfect, but I thought it was a very enjoyable, stellar action film; and it's made me look forward to Episode 8.

 

[Thaluikhain]

As for Kylo Ren himself, it is patently obvious when you watch the movie that he's not as strong in the force as he wants to seem. He's especially bad at using the force when he becomes emotionally unbalanced, such as when Rey fights back during his mind probe and later during their duel. He's Snoke's apprentice and he serves as an inversion of Darth Vader; where Vader was a powerful force user in his own right, Ren is still learning and obviously lacks the power he wants to project. Not to mention how that scene serves to reinforce the fact that Kylo Ren is, at that point, still struggling with his temptation to go back to the light whereas Rey is determined to fight him and the First Order for all she is worth. That he fails to mind probe her highlights the difference in their resolve at that point.

A bit of a tangent, but I didn't think Ren was weak because he was Snooki's Snoke's apprentice. I thought he was a fully trained Sith, just a rubbish one and knows he always will be. Given that you aren't going to create a character as good as Vader, an insecure wannabe was a good move.

Anyway, as to Rey and Luke, and why she is a Mary Sue and he is not...yeah, there's the usual answer which might apply.

 

[twistedmic]

A bit of a tangent, but I didn't think Ren was weak because he was Snooki's Snoke's apprentice. I thought he was a fully trained Sith, just a rubbish one and knows he always will be

Small point: Kylo Ren and Snoke are not Sith. The Sith were a specific sect of dark side force users, but they were not the only dark side force users (the EU books had the Nightsisters of Dathomir).
And considering we've really only seen the first act, so to speak, of the new trilogy we just might see more characterization of Kylo Ren (and Phasma for that matter) in the second and third parts. Plus, while he was undoubtedly intimidating in Star Wars Vader's greatness as a character didn't really start to bloom until The Empire Strikes Back.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

A bit of a tangent, but I didn't think Ren was weak because he was Snooki's Snoke's apprentice. I thought he was a fully trained Sith, just a rubbish one and knows he always will be. Given that you aren't going to create a character as good as Vader, an insecure wannabe was a good move.

That's a valid interpretation too. I am mostly going on the fact that Snoke's last line to Ren in TFA amounts to "come back here and we'll finish your training" and that Snoke explicitly states that Ren has to kill Solo before his training can continue earlier in the movie.

 

[Thaluikhain]

A bit of a tangent, but I didn't think Ren was weak because he was Snooki's Snoke's apprentice. I thought he was a fully trained Sith, just a rubbish one and knows he always will be. Given that you aren't going to create a character as good as Vader, an insecure wannabe was a good move.

That's a valid interpretation too. I am mostly going on the fact that Snoke's last line to Ren in TFA amounts to "come back here and we'll finish your training" and that Snoke explicitly states that Ren has to kill Solo before his training can continue earlier in the movie.

Ah, ok, I must have missed that bit.

Plus, while he was undoubtedly intimidating in Star Wars Vader's greatness as a character didn't really start to bloom until The Empire Strikes Back.

True, he worked with other people and didn't force choke everyone. In Star Wars, IIRC, the only person he force chokes he lets go when he's told to...and that guy was right to call him out on the Force not being that useful.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Sorry, I can't really contribute more to this discussion. Been trying to AVOID getting too heated on these boards lately. Hasn't been good to me. Just have ONE thing to add before dropping out.

You mean like Rey, who was a scavenger on a planet full of cutthroat scavengers and the tyrannical merchants they sold their scrap to?

At what point did I complain about Rey being able to fight? At what point did ANYONE outside of a chan board complain about that?!

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

A bit of a tangent, but I didn't think Ren was weak because he was Snooki's Snoke's apprentice. I thought he was a fully trained Sith, just a rubbish one and knows he always will be. Given that you aren't going to create a character as good as Vader, an insecure wannabe was a good move.

That's a valid interpretation too. I am mostly going on the fact that Snoke's last line to Ren in TFA amounts to "come back here and we'll finish your training" and that Snoke explicitly states that Ren has to kill Solo before his training can continue earlier in the movie.

Ah, ok, I must have missed that bit.

Plus, while he was undoubtedly intimidating in Star Wars Vader's greatness as a character didn't really start to bloom until The Empire Strikes Back.

True, he worked with other people and didn't force choke everyone. In Star Wars, IIRC, the only person he force chokes he lets go when he's told to...and that guy was right to call him out on the Force not being that useful.

He DID choke one other person actually. Not FORCE choked granted.


With his bare hand, and lifting that sucker half a foot off the the ground. Then add in his Death Star run, yeah. Vader spent most of Ep4 showing he had the biggest nuts in the room.

 

[Thaluikhain]

He DID choke one other person actually. Not FORCE choked granted.


With his bare hand, and lifting that sucker half a foot off the the ground. Then add in his Death Star run, yeah. Vader spent most of Ep4 showing he had the biggest nuts in the room.

I subtract points for that one, because Vader wanted the guy to answer some questions, and killing the guy didn't help.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

At what point did I complain about Rey being able to fight? At what point did ANYONE outside of a chan board complain about that?!

My general point was that Rey has obviously led a rough life up until the start of TFA and it is not unreasonable for her to have picked up on a lot of skills (fighting and flying included) that show up over the course of the movie.