The Half-Naked Elf Problem

[RandV80]

Yeah I don't really like it, but I'm not going to complain about it. It's kind of a matter of self entitlement... gamers have a lot of different tastes, and while I like boobies as much as the next guy I'm not a fan of the cartoon style and don't like games trying to get my attention by shameless pandering to my gender. On the other hand, there are people that do like that stuff, even loli's as bad as it is. So rather than try to make every game conform to your tastes, or at least to a sort of mass common collective, what you need is a diverse variety of games that cater to different peoples preferences and tastes. So as long as their's alternatives out there let the people that want it have their string bikini elves and pant-less loli catgirls.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

image snipped

not every game has this problem ... just sayin

You're joking, right? She's wearing metal stockings and suspenders :/

This sort of thing is more appropriate:

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not every game has this problem ... just sayin

Oh yeah, metal thigh-highs, open sided tops, no pants and almost visible underwear just screams "ready for combat" to me.

but she not exactly but neked ether, hell she's more covered then anything i've seen outa WoW (not that i dress my characters like skanks anyway, yes, that one is mine)

also, where the hell are you seeing suspenders? if anything they're Plate thigh highs

also, no undies are visible at all in that set, i noticed that to, upon closer inspection she is in short shorts unless you wanna get on my for the times I'm not waring armor at all [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb8AqV1BKpI][/quote]The point is she very obviously isn't dressed appropriately. You don't wear thigh high boots, sideless shirts and short shorts into combat. It's very clearly designed to be sexy and THAT'S the problem. If you want good gear, you gotta look like a stripper dressing up for a kinky customer. You don't have the option to wear the gear with those stats and look like an actual warrior.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Honestly I don't see the problem here, if Girls don't like this kinda fantasy rpg, they can go play fable 2 where you can wear loads of clothes. This is obviously a rpg aimed at dudes (I mean boob jiggle physics!), so you have got to expect this sort of thing.
...
People can complain about loads of stuff developers do but the bottom line is they do a lot of it to sell their Games. In short BOOBS SELL GAMES.

I have no idea what sort of wretched, neckbearded creature actually buys games because they have tits in them. I mean, seriously, if you really must look at pictures of boobs while you play vidya gaems, the internet is full of that stuff. Bonus: you don't have to see the creepy pedo shit bluehole put into their game to pander to a different demographic.

Whether you like it or not mate Games with sex appeal sell take Bayonetta for example, do you think that Game became talked about because it had great combat?

Also a great example of boobs selling fantasy is the guild war games cover art.
http://www.gamersbin.com/game-wallpapers-f137/cover-art-guild-wars-eye-north-%5Bgw-en%5D-wallpaper-cover-art-wallpaper-24169/
Do you really there is another reason her tits are so big, other than to draw the eye and sell the Game?

Now, nowhere in my post did I imply that the gaming community is absent of wretched neckbearded creatures that see this sort of thing as a selling point. It's just that I don't understand why they have that preference in the first place.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Yeah I don't really like it, but I'm not going to complain about it. It's kind of a matter of self entitlement... gamers have a lot of different tastes, and while I like boobies as much as the next guy I'm not a fan of the cartoon style and don't like games trying to get my attention by shameless pandering to my gender. On the other hand, there are people that do like that stuff, even loli's as bad as it is. So rather than try to make every game conform to your tastes, or at least to a sort of mass common collective, what you need is a diverse variety of games that cater to different peoples preferences and tastes. So as long as their's alternatives out there let the people that want it have their string bikini elves and pant-less loli catgirls.

So now it's "entitled" to not want pedo shit in vidya gaems?

 

[A Weakgeek]

Actually I find the male characters just as sexualized as the female ones.

 

[AppleShrapnel]

I thought this topic fell by the wayside ten years ago... slow news day, Shamus?

I feel it should be mentioned that the screenshots of the Elin presented earlier aren't accurate to what is seen in the US release; believe it or not, they were somewhat censored. Their tummies are now covered and they all wear hotpants instead of smexy panties... I was disappointed with that, as was the vast majority of Tera's playerbase. Some shielding themselves with the "censorship is bad" or "compromising original assets is an insult to the Korean artists" argument... but as for me, I just wanted scantily-clad loli cat/fox/rabbit girls. /:3

Anyhoo, if excessive skin and jiggle physics are enough to scare you away from a game with fun gameplay mechanics... well... more power to ya. As a blatant perv, I just don't understand prudes like you. XD (this isn't directed at anyone in particular, this is just a general "you")

As to the topic on the whole, I see little reason for this to be brought up, nor do I think it warrants an actual discussion. Different games have implemented different means to address the issue (in various ways), and Korean-developed games will continue to sexualize and objectify both male and female characters- that's just the way it is. Revisiting this old hot-topic after such a long span will solicit more opinions, sure, but it's utterly pointless to speculate on "solutions" or trying to "fix" something that isn't really broken... that's how I see it anyway. 9_9

@Kahunaburger: Dude, lay off the rage, man. It's unbecoming... XD

But to answer your burning question; people like me love having skin and overall smexy-ness in games because that means if we get switched on while playing, we don't have to alt+tab or exit the game and go to the internet to complete the process. It's like multitasking. And multitasking in almost any form feels pretty awesome.

 

[chadachada123]

Actually i have heard of Tera, the biggest thing i heard about it is that is basically has a "Scantily Clad Loli" class. No seriosuly look;

Yeahhhh... im not comfortable with whoever designed those. Stay the fuck away from me

I do think that there's an argument to be made about having children in MMOs, though. I think that the outfits go a little bit far (well, they could at least wear a skirt or something), but I, personally, would pick a child avatar in a fighting game over an adult one because it feels badass. I think that this can be achieved without trying to sexualize the characters.

Case in point: In Ninety-Nine Nights, one of the characters is a twelve-year old sorceress that can summon giant tidal waves that kill basically everything, and the game doesn't sexualize her despite giving her a "normal fantasy"-type outfit.

Spoiler

I for one would love to play as a loli-fox, because it'd be hilarious to beat other people while playing as one. That said, I agree that the outfits need a redesign to not sexulize the foxes.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I feel it should be mentioned that the screenshots of the Elin presented earlier aren't accurate to what is seen in the US release; believe it or not, they were somewhat censored. Their tummies are now covered and they all wear hotpants instead of smexy panties... I was disappointed with that, as was the vast majority of Tera's playerbase. Some shielding themselves with the "censorship is bad" or "compromising original assets is an insult to the Korean artists" argument... but as for me, I just wanted scantily-clad loli cat/fox/rabbit girls. /:3

...I don't know what to say, besides "reported." This is literally the worst thing I have seen posted on the Escapist. Take a bow, man.

@Kahunaburger: Dude, lay off the rage, man. It's unbecoming... XD

It's okay to be angry at pedophilia. That's the normal human reaction.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Case in point: In Ninety-Nine Nights, one of the characters is a twelve-year old sorceress that can summon giant tidal waves that kill basically everything, and the game doesn't sexualize her despite giving her a "normal fantasy"-type outfit.

Spoiler

I think that's still pretty problematic, albeit much less so than the outright pedo shit in Tera.

 

[Taunta]

I thought this topic fell by the wayside ten years ago... slow news day, Shamus?

I feel it should be mentioned that the screenshots of the Elin presented earlier aren't accurate to what is seen in the US release; believe it or not, they were somewhat censored. Their tummies are now covered and they all wear hotpants instead of smexy panties... I was disappointed with that, as was the vast majority of Tera's playerbase. Some shielding themselves with the "censorship is bad" or "compromising original assets is an insult to the Korean artists" argument... but as for me, I just wanted scantily-clad loli cat/fox/rabbit girls. /:3

Anyhoo, if excessive skin and jiggle physics are enough to scare you away from a game with fun gameplay mechanics... well... more power to ya. As a blatant perv, I just don't understand prudes like you. XD (this isn't directed at anyone in particular, this is just a general "you")

As to the topic on the whole, I see little reason for this to be brought up, nor do I think it warrants an actual discussion. Different games have implemented different means to address the issue (in various ways), and Korean-developed games will continue to sexualize and objectify both male and female characters- that's just the way it is. Revisiting this old hot-topic after such a long span will solicit more opinions, sure, but it's utterly pointless to speculate on "solutions" or trying to "fix" something that isn't really broken... that's how I see it anyway. 9_9

@Kahunaburger: Dude, lay off the rage, man. It's unbecoming... XD

But to answer your burning question; people like me love having skin and overall smexy-ness in games because that means if we get switched on while playing, we don't have to alt+tab or exit the game and go to the internet to complete the process. It's like multitasking. And multitasking in almost any form feels pretty awesome.

You're missing the point. No one ever said remove all sexy armor from games period. The problem is that a lot of times that is the only option for women. I don't always want to play slutty characters. Maybe I want to play a no-nonsense tank character. On the other hand, there are very few options to play a slutty man character either. That's the point. There's no choice.

What if I wanted to multitask because I got turned on by someone's character dressed up like a Chippendale? Too bad, I can't.

Anyways, "that's just the way it is" is not a good excuse when addressing these kinds of things. You only see it as "not broken" because the system is in a place that currently favors you. Now you know what male privilege is.

 

[minimacker]

How about an MMO where you wear the same armour with both genders? Don a suit of chainmail, get a suit of chainmail for both the male and female. BUT THAT'S JUST PREPOSTEROUS! MOAR BIKINIS. MOAR THONGS.

 

[chadachada123]

How about an MMO where you wear the same armour with both genders? Don a suit of chainmail, get a suit of chainmail for both the male and female. BUT THAT'S JUST PREPOSTEROUS! MOAR BIKINIS. MOAR THONGS.

Dark Souls does this, albeit while not being an MMO. It does a great job for a Japanese RPG, though.

 

[Lunar Templar]

The point is she very obviously isn't dressed appropriately. You don't wear thigh high boots, sideless shirts and short shorts into combat. It's very clearly designed to be sexy and THAT'S the problem. If you want good gear, you gotta look like a stripper dressing up for a kinky customer. You don't have the option to wear the gear with those stats and look like an actual warrior.

and ... ? its still a far cry better then most females armor out there (and where this side less shirt BS you keep going on about? unless your talking about the red lizard man hide around her sides). and its not that sexy a set compared to her Shining Will set, Chiulin (the set from the pick) and the next set up, Silent Quemielle are some of her more conservative sets, actually most her sets have a pretty good balance of form and function (long as she's not waring the stuff meant for the mage, some of that's kinda trashy...)

No, she's not naked. Nakedness is not the point. The point is she's wearing "armour" that has clearly been designed with sex appeal as the primary goal. That's what we're complaining about. If I'm playing a female tank, I want her to look as tough and solid (bulky, even) as her male counterparts. Elegance and sexiness are not at the forefront of a lot of women's minds in this situation, contrary to popular belief.

so? when did 'sex appeal' for any thing suddenly become a bad thing? i mean sure, the plate mail bikini is face palm worthy, but you seirusly putting this set on par with that? just cause there's a little bit of leg showing? personally i think this whole argument is largely stupid, whining about realistic armor is largely pointless since 99% of the time it's all based on the armor's STATS not how much is covered in terms of protection. i will concede 'half naked elves' as a problem though, elves aren't that interesting to look at, but that's getting into other things

also, 'Fiona' isn't a tank. Vin doesn't have 'classes' like that (or a real threat table, which sucks some times x.x)

 

[Negatempest]

The only thing that has kept guys from running around in loincloth, boots, shoulder pads and maybe a helmet is....well the armor just isn't there to do it. I have anticipated and have never gotten a time where I can create a bad-ass tank spec warrior with an old-school gladiator look of maybe shoulder pads, a shield, boots and wolf skin loincloth. Just to prove how bad-ass he is in the form of not needing much armor.

The only game I played that got kinda close to that was obviously the Conan MMO, but I didn't like the gameplay too much.

 

[Eamar]

No, she's not naked. Nakedness is not the point. The point is she's wearing "armour" that has clearly been designed with sex appeal as the primary goal. That's what we're complaining about. If I'm playing a female tank, I want her to look as tough and solid (bulky, even) as her male counterparts. Elegance and sexiness are not at the forefront of a lot of women's minds in this situation, contrary to popular belief.

so? when did 'sex appeal' for any thing suddenly become a bad thing? i mean sure, the plate mail bikini is face palm worthy, but you seirusly putting this set on par with that? just cause there's a little bit of leg showing? personally i think this whole argument is largely stupid, whining about realistic armor is largely pointless since 99% of the time it's all based on the armor's STATS not how much is covered in terms of protection. i will concede 'half naked elves' as a problem though, elves aren't that interesting to look at, but that's getting into other things

also, 'Fiona' isn't a tank. Vin doesn't have 'classes' like that (or a real threat table, which sucks some times x.x)

If you can't see why this would be a problem for some (not all, granted) women, then I don't think this conversation is going to go anywhere. I stated in my original post that I have created sexy characters in the past. Sex appeal as an option is not a problem. The problem arises when there isn't any other option, and when items that would look like functional armour on a male avatar become underwear when worn by a female one.

The point is that these games are supposed to be fantasy. My fantasy, your fantasy, whatever. They shouldn't have to be mutually exclusive. I have no problem with you wanting to make Fiona sexy. I have a problem when I'm trying to indulge in a bit of escapism of my own only to be forced into playing an avatar that is very obviously some guy's fantasy, not mine. And honestly, I cannot tell you how sick I am of the way my gender is (overwhelmingly) represented in this hobby.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that your character was a tank or anything, it's just a problem I've encountered in the past. I like to play heavy hitting characters like that and am often presented with frankly laughable characters to fill that role. Personally, I love both Mass Effect and Dragon Age because my female characters, while obviously looking *different* from their male counterparts look no more sexualised. (Though I would actually really like to play a game where the male and female characters who wore very heavy armour looked more alike, a la the original Metroid. Because honestly, when both genders are encased in massive space marine suits of power armour, how are you going to tell the difference? )

 

[AppleShrapnel]

...I don't know what to say, besides "reported." This is literally the worst thing I have seen posted on the Escapist. Take a bow, man.

As you say. /bow Although I find it hard to imagine that someone proclaiming their being smitten with something designed to be sexy as the worst thing you've seen on the Escapist... but ok, that'll be my claim to fame, i suppose.

It's okay to be angry at pedophilia. That's the normal human reaction.

I'm not seeing anger, only blind, seething rage... but anyway, I can assure you, and the Escapist community at large, I'm not a pedobear. I would never force myself on any woman, regardless of age. The Elin are just a little fantasy, like all the games where we become mass murderers, womanizers, evil bastards and other such unsavory concepts.

If you like playing GTA and wandering the streets, shooting pedestrians, massacring law enforcement and running over old ladies with an SUV, I'm not gonna report you to the FBI or anything. ._.

You're missing the point. No one ever said remove all sexy armor from games period. The problem is that a lot of times that is the only option for women. I don't always want to play slutty characters. Maybe I want to play a no-nonsense tank character. On the other hand, there are very few options to play a slutty man character either. That's the point. There's no choice.

What if I wanted to multitask because I got turned on by someone's character dressed up like a Chippendale? Too bad, I can't.

All true. But as far as gender equality goes in terms of skimpy armor, Tera really is the best. There's a post somewhere on here that shows the males, even with the more stylized body types, showcasing a fair amount of skin. Not as much as the ladies, no, but again, that's just how it is...

Anyways, "that's just the way it is" is not a good excuse when addressing these kinds of things. You only see it as "not broken" because the system is in a place that currently favors you. Now you know what male privilege is.

There's no such thing as a good excuse. Fact of the matter is, majority of gamers are male, thus, sexy ladies are more likely to move more games. Is that shortsighted and maybe even a bit sexist? Yeah, maybe a little. >.>

But if it isn't girls selling the games, it's military ordinance, just look at Call of Duty. Gaming is filled with gun-nuts and sexual deviants. Doesn't that just paint a pretty picture? XD

For what it's worth, I apologize for my lack of perspective on the matter, but as more and more gamer girls surface, perhaps things will find a happy medium... we can hope, at least. ^_^;

 

[Taunta]

You're missing the point. No one ever said remove all sexy armor from games period. The problem is that a lot of times that is the only option for women. I don't always want to play slutty characters. Maybe I want to play a no-nonsense tank character. On the other hand, there are very few options to play a slutty man character either. That's the point. There's no choice.

What if I wanted to multitask because I got turned on by someone's character dressed up like a Chippendale? Too bad, I can't.

All true. But as far as gender equality goes in terms of skimpy armor, Tera really is the best. There's a post somewhere on here that shows the males, even with the more stylized body types, showcasing a fair amount of skin. Not as much as the ladies, no, but again, that's just how it is...

Anyways, "that's just the way it is" is not a good excuse when addressing these kinds of things. You only see it as "not broken" because the system is in a place that currently favors you. Now you know what male privilege is.

There's no such thing as a good excuse. Fact of the matter is, majority of gamers are male, thus, sexy ladies are more likely to move more games. Is that shortsighted and maybe even a bit sexist? Yeah, maybe a little. >.>

But if it isn't girls selling the games, it's military ordinance, just look at Call of Duty. Gaming is filled with gun-nuts and sexual deviants. Doesn't that just paint a pretty picture? XD

For what it's worth, I apologize for my lack of perspective on the matter, but as more and more gamer girls surface, perhaps things will find a happy medium... we can hope, at least. ^_^;

Yes, but Tera is not the entire games industry, nor is it representative of the entire games industry. Show me a good example, and I can show you a thousand bad ones.

Again, no one said "all sexy ladies are bad", but I can guarantee you as much as sex is selling, it's losing sales too. You should go back and read the article again. When it gets to a point that it is alienating the female market, then it's no longer an issue of gender equality, it's an issue of lost sales.

Additionally, I highly doubt there is a statistically significant number of people that buy games for the sole reason that it has boobs on the cover. Sex might help sales, but losing it would not cripple sales.

I fail to see how COD is in any way relevant to the conversation. We're not talking about recurring themes in the popular games industry, we're talking about skimpy outfits specifically.

 

[Lunar Templar]

If you can't see why this would be a problem for some (not all, granted) women, then I don't think this conversation is going to go anywhere. I stated in my original post that I have created sexy characters in the past. Sex appeal as an option is not a problem. The problem arises when there isn't any other option, and when items that would look like functional armour on a male avatar become underwear when worn by a female one.

there are games out there, MMO's that do have this problem licked ya know like EQ2, which, i don't play cause the combat sucks (and SoE screwed me on a purchase but that's a whole other thing) and really, i have to be having fun before i care about how my character looks.

The point is that these games are supposed to be fantasy. My fantasy, your fantasy, whatever. They shouldn't have to be mutually exclusive. I have no problem with you wanting to make Fiona sexy. I have a problem when I'm trying to indulge in a bit of escapism of my own only to be forced into playing an avatar that is very obviously some guy's fantasy, not mine. And honestly, I cannot tell you how sick I am of the way my gender is (overwhelmingly) represented in this hobby.

o.0? your gender? *checks profile* oh .... same page now (makes more sense having the complaining coming from an actual female) though I'm not sure what solution to give, a side hoping for a happy medium between sexy and functional. i like the general design of sets like Chiulin, that balance of form and function, i mean yeah it's sorta sexy but it still looks like it'd do the job of protecting the person in it (better the Karoks version, he's just got two leather straps covering his chest)

there's always going to be games like WoW or Tera where armor's held on with a bit of string and wishful thinking, but there's also going to be games where it's handled better, just a matter of looking

Also, I didn't mean to imply that your character was a tank or anything, it's just a problem I've encountered in the past. I like to play heavy hitting characters like that and am often presented with frankly laughable characters to fill that role. Personally, I love both Mass Effect and Dragon Age because my female characters, while obviously looking *different* from their male counterparts look no more sexualised. (Though I would actually really like to play a game where the male and female characters who wore very heavy armour looked more alike, a la the original Metroid. Because honestly, when both genders are encased in massive space marine suits of power armour, how are you going to tell the difference? )

it's cool, a lot of people make that mistake about vin, they see the shield and plate and think 'tank' until they figure out there's like zero agro control in that game (where i have seen bosses stomp a cross a room, ignoring the person whaling on them just to pop some one trying to down a potion, it sucks as much as it is funny XD) i hear you on the heavy hitters though there a few joys greater then wading into a mob and clearing a room with nothing shy of upper to top tier enemy's capable of slowing you down let alone stopping you. i call them bulldozers though, seems fitting

but yeah, i do kinda hear you, there's suspension of disbelief and then there's 'wtf is this ...' my problem though is generally not the armor, but character model size. like when i wanna build a tank and i have to do it with a super model :/ some times, i wanna roll a female that's the size of a house cause i want her to look the part of a tank, armored or not(like the female Barbarian in D3, she's fucking HUGE o.o; and yes, i am one of those guys that rolls female character pretty much exclusively so i encounter this alot

 

[AppleShrapnel]

*super-effective snip*

True. Tera is a good example, but bad examples are everywhere. I was pointing it out because it was the catalyst for the article, and if nothing else, it's a step in the right direction... well, kinda.

Also true on next two points. Developer and publisher studios just tend to see the big picture and little else. If they could convince themselves that less sex appeal wouldn't bankrupt them, things may balance out. That's just something they'll have to figure out on their own, though. No one, especially consumers, are gonna be able to convince them otherwise... not saying the whole "vote with your wallet" thing wouldn't work, but... well, maybe they'll see the light soon. :/

And right again, COD was totally irrelevant. That kinda snuck in there while I was still thinking about Kahuna's post... my bad.

 

[Negatempest]

Over-sexualized? Maybe, but I hardly see any point in arguing over this type of topic from my own point of view. The kind of armor an avatar wears is pointless compared to the role the character plays. Think of it the way I kinda see it. This is far better than the females only being mages/sorceresses and males only being the tanks. Sure bikini armor exists, but that is small potatoes considering she can fill a role as any other male can without suffering stat differences. Heck if mmo's really wanted to become sexist, females would of had lower stats than males and limited to staves or wands. But any female supermodel body can hold the same 12 foot sword a male can who has muscles made of pure testosterone....and it's unfair for the women?