The misinterpretation of evolution

[Asita]

Oh yeah, i know.
Theres an uncountable amount of stars, planets and galaxy's out there. Theres a chance we dont even know of most of them, because we havent seen light from them yet.

xD But that doesnt make the fact that WE are sitting here now talking about it any less amazing. If a single thing in the past had changed, humans might have never evolved existed. instead we could be going though another dino-phase, waiting for another meteor to take us out.

And i dont believe its magic xD never did say i did.
Its THE CHANCE of it all happening so perfectly that gets me. Because every time you add a factor, the chances of it happening gets more and more astronomical.

You know there's a fundamental flaw in this notion: You seem to be implying that this is the ONLY way that things could have turned out. There are many possibilities, yes, but to make an appeal to probability like that is akin to saying "you know if the specific sperm and egg that I came from didn't get together, my parents would never have had kids" (assuming you're an only child for simplicity's sake). By the line of thought you seem to be endorsing here, every single person should be viewed as a statsistical anomaly because the given sperm that they came from was only one of about 4 billion, giving them specifically an incredibly small chance of existing as they are. That's not proper logic.

 

[kouriichi]

The chances of our planet being in perfect distance of the sun to have constant liquid water on the surface, have life develop on it from thoughtless chains of atoms, to develop the perfect oxygen atmosphere and then on top of that, for us to NOT be destroyed by one of the countless (literally countless) meteors hurling through space is beyond the realm of "just happening".

Dude, try for a moment to imagine the galaxy in all it's vastness, the uncountable number of stars, and the uncountable number of planets surrounding some of those stars. then remember that our galaxy is one of a near infinite amount of equally large galaxies. Now with that in mind look over you statement, our planet is not an amazing piece of luck, but a mathematical certainty, becuase their are so many planets and all are unique, thus one like ours had to exist somewhere. It's chance, not magic, or any other kind of supernatural thing. it's like if you had an infinite number of entirely unique human beings, their would have to be one who would be in the right time, place and state of mind to say exactly what you just said.

Not trying to insult your beliefs, just telling you what, as a species, we have figured out.

Oh yeah, i know.
Theres an uncountable amount of stars, planets and galaxy's out there. Theres a chance we dont even know of most of them, because we havent seen light from them yet.

xD But that doesnt make the fact that WE are sitting here now talking about it any less amazing. If a single thing in the past had changed, humans might have never evolved existed. instead we could be going though another dino-phase, waiting for another meteor to take us out.

And i dont believe its magic xD never did say i did.
Its THE CHANCE of it all happening so perfectly that gets me. Because every time you add a factor, the chances of it happening gets more and more astronomical.

But the fact that we are here talking about it proves that it DID happen. And as Psychodynamica said, the universe is so damn big that there was never any reason why it shouldn't happen somewhere.

BTW I'm not saying this definitely rules out a creator, just that a creator is not necessary to explain it, as you seem to think.

xD well yeah, i understand that life is more then likely to exist somewhere else. But another factor is that life becoming intelligent, as we are. Its bound to happen sometime, but when it does, think of all the events that have to take place in its billions of years of planet formation and evolution for it to exist.

Yes, science says its bound to happen, but its just so amazingly unlikely, i prefer the idea something helped it along.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

Kouriichi, I think the word for what you are is "deist". Someone who believes in a supernatural creator, but not necessarily (in fact almost certainly not) the one from any particular religion.

But the point I and others have been trying to make is that, low as the chances of life (especially life as advanced as humans) arising on any planet anywhere might be, even a very small chance is a chance and there is nothing strange about it happening. It may have been very unlikely, but the universe is a very big place and it was as likely to happen here on Earth as anywhere else. We humans are the product of it happening, so it's no coincidence whatsoever that it happens where we happen to be, any more than it's a coincidence that if you design and build a car you end up with a car (sorry for the potentially confusing "design" analogy).

Again, the anthropic argument: it must have happened because here we are.

>.<
No, im not a Deist.
Because i believe that the supernatural power does take part in the affairs of the universe.

For us to exist, i believe that the supernatural power had to have a hand in all the events leading UP to where we are as a species.

Oh ok, I was forgetting about the "indifferent" aspect of deism.

But I still genuinely don't see how you've reached your conclusion. I totally agree that it's amazing to think that we are the result of a very unlikely series of occurrences, but there's no reason to think it's not the case.

Also, hopefully without getting too far into the dangerous territory of full-on theo-debate... if we were created by a being, where did that being come from?

I dont believe so much that it "came from somewhere".
I kinda believe "its part of this". (this being everything)
Kind of like Darkmatter. Its just there.

Fair enough.

This kind of thing is the reason why I'm an agnostic who likes to be thought of as an atheist. Your darkmatter creator could be the truth. The deist's indifferent creator could be the truth. The Flying Spaghetti Monster could be the truth. Even the Judeo-Christian god could be the truth. But so could absolutely, literally anything else we could imagine, and anything we couldn't imagine, because we're talking about things that are going on outside the universe and outside our limited understanding.

So I'm agnostic, but I don't like that term because it apparently has connotations of intellectually happy-go-lucky people who are all friendly and think one belief system is as good as another. I'd rather align myself with hard-line atheists who are, quite frankly, sick and tired of seeing baseless religious beliefs presented as viable alternatives to science and rational thought.

Well, for all i know, the supernatural being could be nothing but, "The pure hopes and dreams of children! "
xD It could be "luck" as we know it, tipping its favor at us.

I just dont believe it all happened, without help. It could even be aliens, but because we have no tangible proof aliens exist, i dont believe it was them. (i partially believe in aliens, but not to the extent most people do.)

But we have no tangible proof that a supernatural creator exists either. More to the point, we have no tangible reason to believe it DIDN'T all "just happen".

 

[kouriichi]

Oh yeah, i know.
Theres an uncountable amount of stars, planets and galaxy's out there. Theres a chance we dont even know of most of them, because we havent seen light from them yet.

xD But that doesnt make the fact that WE are sitting here now talking about it any less amazing. If a single thing in the past had changed, humans might have never evolved existed. instead we could be going though another dino-phase, waiting for another meteor to take us out.

And i dont believe its magic xD never did say i did.
Its THE CHANCE of it all happening so perfectly that gets me. Because every time you add a factor, the chances of it happening gets more and more astronomical.

You know there's a fundamental flaw in this notion: That this is the ONLY way that things could have turned out. There are many possibilities, yes, but to make an appeal to probability like that is akin to saying "you know if the specific sperm and egg that I came from didn't get together, my parents would never have had kids" (assuming you're an only child for simplicity's sake). By the line of thought you seem to be endorsing here, every single person should be viewed as a statsistical anomaly because the given sperm that they came from was only one of about 4 billion, giving them specifically an incredibly small chance of existing as they are. That's not proper logic.

xD no, its not proper logic. I never said it was. Humans arnt logical creatures by nature.

Id just rather chalk the creation of EVERYTHING up to something other then blind chance.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

The chances of our planet being in perfect distance of the sun to have constant liquid water on the surface, have life develop on it from thoughtless chains of atoms, to develop the perfect oxygen atmosphere and then on top of that, for us to NOT be destroyed by one of the countless (literally countless) meteors hurling through space is beyond the realm of "just happening".

Dude, try for a moment to imagine the galaxy in all it's vastness, the uncountable number of stars, and the uncountable number of planets surrounding some of those stars. then remember that our galaxy is one of a near infinite amount of equally large galaxies. Now with that in mind look over you statement, our planet is not an amazing piece of luck, but a mathematical certainty, becuase their are so many planets and all are unique, thus one like ours had to exist somewhere. It's chance, not magic, or any other kind of supernatural thing. it's like if you had an infinite number of entirely unique human beings, their would have to be one who would be in the right time, place and state of mind to say exactly what you just said.

Not trying to insult your beliefs, just telling you what, as a species, we have figured out.

Oh yeah, i know.
Theres an uncountable amount of stars, planets and galaxy's out there. Theres a chance we dont even know of most of them, because we havent seen light from them yet.

xD But that doesnt make the fact that WE are sitting here now talking about it any less amazing. If a single thing in the past had changed, humans might have never evolved existed. instead we could be going though another dino-phase, waiting for another meteor to take us out.

And i dont believe its magic xD never did say i did.
Its THE CHANCE of it all happening so perfectly that gets me. Because every time you add a factor, the chances of it happening gets more and more astronomical.

But the fact that we are here talking about it proves that it DID happen. And as Psychodynamica said, the universe is so damn big that there was never any reason why it shouldn't happen somewhere.

BTW I'm not saying this definitely rules out a creator, just that a creator is not necessary to explain it, as you seem to think.

xD well yeah, i understand that life is more then likely to exist somewhere else. But another factor is that life becoming intelligent, as we are. Its bound to happen sometime, but when it does, think of all the events that have to take place in its billions of years of planet formation and evolution for it to exist.

Yes, science says its bound to happen, but its just so amazingly unlikely, i prefer the idea something helped it along.

Science says it's bound to happen but it's too unlikely to have happened? Isn't that a total contradiction?

 

[Flac00]

created us through evolution.

And this would be why your not a creationist.
Creationism and Evolution are opposite beliefs and you cannot believe in both.
If you think something guided Evolution your still not a Creationist.

I don't mean to sound harsh by linking web definitions and would normally use a dictionary (to late sadly XD)

The belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution

the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.

Creationism is the religious doctrine, opposed to naturalistic evolution, that life on this planet was created by a special, unique act of God. Creationism goes beyond this traditional religious belief, however, in asserting that this belief can be proven empirically and scientifically. (there is a second section to this definition however it is not nice for any believers so I left it out)

"Creationism is the religious belief[1] that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being."

It is creationism.
Creationism doesnt dictate, "Poof humans existed". It dictates that through the supernatural beings power, humans exist, even if its through evolution.

But the problem there is that it is not a science. You can't scientifically prove or disprove god, therefore creationism can't be a science.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

Oh yeah, i know.
Theres an uncountable amount of stars, planets and galaxy's out there. Theres a chance we dont even know of most of them, because we havent seen light from them yet.

xD But that doesnt make the fact that WE are sitting here now talking about it any less amazing. If a single thing in the past had changed, humans might have never evolved existed. instead we could be going though another dino-phase, waiting for another meteor to take us out.

And i dont believe its magic xD never did say i did.
Its THE CHANCE of it all happening so perfectly that gets me. Because every time you add a factor, the chances of it happening gets more and more astronomical.

You know there's a fundamental flaw in this notion: That this is the ONLY way that things could have turned out. There are many possibilities, yes, but to make an appeal to probability like that is akin to saying "you know if the specific sperm and egg that I came from didn't get together, my parents would never have had kids" (assuming you're an only child for simplicity's sake). By the line of thought you seem to be endorsing here, every single person should be viewed as a statsistical anomaly because the given sperm that they came from was only one of about 4 billion, giving them specifically an incredibly small chance of existing as they are. That's not proper logic.

xD no, its not proper logic. I never said it was. Humans arnt logical creatures by nature.

Id just rather chalk the creation of EVERYTHING up to something other then blind chance.

AH! Suddenly it all makes sense. You're religious. Or at least, you're like a religious person in that you choose to believe a certain thing even though it's irrational.

I don't have a problem with this, I just wish you had told me earlier!

 

[psychodynamica]

The chances of our planet being in perfect distance of the sun to have constant liquid water on the surface, have life develop on it from thoughtless chains of atoms, to develop the perfect oxygen atmosphere and then on top of that, for us to NOT be destroyed by one of the countless (literally countless) meteors hurling through space is beyond the realm of "just happening".

Dude, try for a moment to imagine the galaxy in all it's vastness, the uncountable number of stars, and the uncountable number of planets surrounding some of those stars. then remember that our galaxy is one of a near infinite amount of equally large galaxies. Now with that in mind look over you statement, our planet is not an amazing piece of luck, but a mathematical certainty, becuase their are so many planets and all are unique, thus one like ours had to exist somewhere. It's chance, not magic, or any other kind of supernatural thing. it's like if you had an infinite number of entirely unique human beings, their would have to be one who would be in the right time, place and state of mind to say exactly what you just said.

Not trying to insult your beliefs, just telling you what, as a species, we have figured out.

Oh yeah, i know.
Theres an uncountable amount of stars, planets and galaxy's out there. Theres a chance we dont even know of most of them, because we havent seen light from them yet.

xD But that doesnt make the fact that WE are sitting here now talking about it any less amazing. If a single thing in the past had changed, humans might have never evolved existed. instead we could be going though another dino-phase, waiting for another meteor to take us out.

And i dont believe its magic xD never did say i did.
Its THE CHANCE of it all happening so perfectly that gets me. Because every time you add a factor, the chances of it happening gets more and more astronomical.

I know what you mean, but what i am trying to get across is that we aren't an unlikely thing, we were guanranteed to happen. all those combinations of distance, size and make up mean that there has to be, somewhere out there a planet exactly lik ours except it's axis is three degrees different and because of that the dominant form of life is completely different. you see what i am getting at.

Also, when i said magic, it wasn't really directed at you, just seemed like the thing to say xD.

 

[Dethenger]

"That's right, around 50% of the population of the United States does not believe in evolution, and that is sad"

Who put you on such a high horse? You know what? Your saying its sad that people don't believe in what you do, and that is sad. Seriously most people don't give a shit about Human evolution so deal with it. Why do people who strongly believe in Evolution have to be such dick heads? Sorry we can't all be like you.

You seem to suffer from the idea that every opinion has equal merit. They don't. See, the validity of an opinion can be determined by the facts supporting it, and some opinions simply don't have a proverbial leg to stand on. I could be of the opinion that the sky is blue because of the scattering of sunlight due to particulates in the atmosphere (in layman's terms), or I could say that the sky is actually a canvas belonging to Gonzo the Mighty, a gentle yet misunderstood Titan who paints it brilliant and vibrant colors as a means of displaying his kind-hearted soul to humans in a way his tough exterior won't allow.
Obviously, one side has more merit than the other, and yes, it is sad when people flock to an idea that has no bearings in reality.

 

[Flac00]

The title of the thread is "The misinterpretation of evolution". In the original post, you mention that people are using misinterpretations and misconceptions of evolution to try and discredit it. You do then bring to light a few examples of misinterpretations of evolution, but not one that actually applies in the sense of it being used to discredit evolution. Therefore, I really don't know what the topic actually is, but there seems to be a lot of discussion about personal beliefs. That said, I believe in evolution. However, I also believe that evolution and creationism are NOT mutually exclusive.

Captcha had an omega and a beta in it. Crazy!

I guess I assumed some of these discredits would be implied but I can give an example as I did not flesh it out enough.
When I mentioned "Social Darwinism", I did as it was used to discredit Evolution despite the fact that "Social Darwinism" is a misinterpretation of the theory of evolution. So, peoples lack of knowledge, folded together with ignorance, created a firestorm of anger towards Evolution that had somehow caused racism. There are many more examples, all they all play together.
Also, the reason I brought up Creationism and ID is because their whole argument is to use misinterpretations of Evolution to disprove it. They are the manifestation of what I was talking about as the problem.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

Oh yeah, i know.
Theres an uncountable amount of stars, planets and galaxy's out there. Theres a chance we dont even know of most of them, because we havent seen light from them yet.

xD But that doesnt make the fact that WE are sitting here now talking about it any less amazing. If a single thing in the past had changed, humans might have never evolved existed. instead we could be going though another dino-phase, waiting for another meteor to take us out.

And i dont believe its magic xD never did say i did.
Its THE CHANCE of it all happening so perfectly that gets me. Because every time you add a factor, the chances of it happening gets more and more astronomical.

You know there's a fundamental flaw in this notion: You seem to be implying that this is the ONLY way that things could have turned out. There are many possibilities, yes, but to make an appeal to probability like that is akin to saying "you know if the specific sperm and egg that I came from didn't get together, my parents would never have had kids" (assuming you're an only child for simplicity's sake). By the line of thought you seem to be endorsing here, every single person should be viewed as a statsistical anomaly because the given sperm that they came from was only one of about 4 billion, giving them specifically an incredibly small chance of existing as they are. That's not proper logic.

Yes, this!

Say you have a hat with a trillion scraps of paper (yeah it's a really fucking big hat) numbered from one to a trillion. And you shake it up and pull out number one million six hundred and fifteen. Is that amazing? I mean, the chances of you pulling out that one number from all those many many possibilities must have been... well... one in a trillion...

 

[kouriichi]

created us through evolution.

And this would be why your not a creationist.
Creationism and Evolution are opposite beliefs and you cannot believe in both.
If you think something guided Evolution your still not a Creationist.

I don't mean to sound harsh by linking web definitions and would normally use a dictionary (to late sadly XD)

The belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution

the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.

Creationism is the religious doctrine, opposed to naturalistic evolution, that life on this planet was created by a special, unique act of God. Creationism goes beyond this traditional religious belief, however, in asserting that this belief can be proven empirically and scientifically. (there is a second section to this definition however it is not nice for any believers so I left it out)

"Creationism is the religious belief[1] that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being."

It is creationism.
Creationism doesnt dictate, "Poof humans existed". It dictates that through the supernatural beings power, humans exist, even if its through evolution.

But the problem there is that it is not a science. You can't scientifically prove or disprove god, therefore creationism can't be a science.

Did i ever say it was? xD

 

[Flac00]

created us through evolution.

And this would be why your not a creationist.
Creationism and Evolution are opposite beliefs and you cannot believe in both.
If you think something guided Evolution your still not a Creationist.

I don't mean to sound harsh by linking web definitions and would normally use a dictionary (to late sadly XD)

The belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution

the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.

Creationism is the religious doctrine, opposed to naturalistic evolution, that life on this planet was created by a special, unique act of God. Creationism goes beyond this traditional religious belief, however, in asserting that this belief can be proven empirically and scientifically. (there is a second section to this definition however it is not nice for any believers so I left it out)

"Creationism is the religious belief[1] that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being."

It is creationism.
Creationism doesnt dictate, "Poof humans existed". It dictates that through the supernatural beings power, humans exist, even if its through evolution.

But the problem there is that it is not a science. You can't scientifically prove or disprove god, therefore creationism can't be a science.

Did i ever say it was? xD

Nope, but I was just throwing it out there since a lot of other people on this thread have decided to jump to that conclusion.

 

[Plazmatic]

I am a Catholic, but I still know that evolution exists, and I agree that it is appalling that most people don't don't know about it. However, I do not think everyone should be forced to believe in evolution, if people don't want to, why make them? Intelligent design is still a possible theory, as is the theory of evolution, I think God guided evolution but, I'm not going to go around and try and make people teach this in schools everywhere.

why should people be forced to believe gravity?

 

[Bealzibob]

The chances of our planet being in perfect distance of the sun to have constant liquid water on the surface, have life develop on it from thoughtless chains of atoms, to develop the perfect oxygen atmosphere and then on top of that, for us to NOT be destroyed by one of the countless (literally countless) meteors hurling through space is beyond the realm of "just happening".

This statement has always pissed me off. The chances of that happening are infact incredibly good considering there are near infinite planets in the millions of galaxies in the universe and only one needed to work like that for us to be here making that ridiculous assumption.

OT:A large portion of Evolution is provable fact and the rest is ever changing like most sciences. It is sad the people even allow the religious pseudo-science to get it's foot in the door and hopefully come the dawn of the next century our reliance of sciences technological breakthroughs will leave us all feeling warm and trusting of our friend science. Then we can move past this childishness.

 

[Seanfall]

I think that it is fair to say that you seem to need to brush up on some things first before you go crying wolf on other people. Also, it is fair that if one idea is taught in the classroom, then another idea must be taught as well. People need to see all of the choices, and then decide for themselves what they want to believe is true. There is no reasone why Creationism nor evolution can be taught simulataneously.

The class in which evolution is taught is known as Science. Creationism is not science, and neither is ID. Therefore evolution and creationism should not be taught simultaneously. Creationism and ID can be taught in the religion class, though.

If we get Gandolf the Gray in the schools then I support this!

 

[Seanfall]

My feelings towards this subject have always been strong. My father and I would get into arguments night after night about this. I tried to belief in god, I did. And he almost in a rage would tell me I can't belief in god AND evolution. He is also the only real 'religious' person I know. He's also a giant hypocrite, but lets not open up that seething bleeding wound in my soul and move on.

Well since according to my father I can't belief in god AND evolution. I'm gonna pick the one that's been proven time and time again. I'm also gonna have to go with paul on the 'how do you live with these people' subject. As after what I went threw...I can't. A lot of what is keeping Evolution out of the classroom is overly Conservative people who don't like a challenge to their beliefs. And they say it 'corrupts' the children. What they usually mean is something along the lines of 'it gives them new ideas and we don't like that.' At least that's the way I see it. Same reason Sexual education classless come under a lot of fire. And a lot of those that do make it are more 'scare them straight' stuff then actual Education. Frankly society in this country is dated. It's still based on outmoded gender roles and stupid ass backwards prejudices etc. etc. Mostly kept in place by the 'old guard' that needs to either step aside or drop dead.

The problem can be a town to town one but it's inductive of a larger more pressing matter. Our society is stagnating. New ideas are attacked left and right. (like video games being a form of expression) free thinkers, artists, sicenetists are often demonized. And outmoded ideas are still being thrown at us from all angles. For instance am I the only one sick to death of those 'slim jim's commercials. If I see that fat fuck looking threateningly at me with a pack of slim jim's in his hand I'm gonna headdesk threw the floor. That's one example. well that's all I got to say, so thanks for reading. And may Cthulhu bless.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

First of all, your run on sentences make an extremely incoherent argument. Second of all, you seem to have some of your facts bass-ackwards. You seem to believe that evolution was the lead idea the whole time, and that these filthy newcomers of Intelligetn Design are invading. It is actually quite the opposite. Evolution is an idea that is barely even a hundred years old, while Creationism has had free reign for thousands of years.

I think that it is fair to say that you seem to need to brush up on some things first before you go crying wolf on other people. Also, it is fair that if one idea is taught in the classroom, then another idea must be taught as well. People need to see all of the choices, and then decide for themselves what they want to believe is true. There is no reasone why Creationism nor evolution can be taught simulataneously.

One problem: creation/intelligent design is NOT a scientific theory and has no place in the classroom.

 

[justnotcricket]

I'm a Crevolutionist. I believe that God likes dominoes and set up the entire universe to play through this. So, you can't really put Creationism at odds with Evolution. I think the problem is that people do put it as Evolution vs. Creationism.

Haha, I was just thinking that =D

I am not religious, and I am by nature and profession an experimental scientist - it will not come as a shock to people that I am a proponent of Darwinian evolution - which itself has evolved since Darwin first laid down the ground rules, as it were.

HOWEVER.

I see absolutely no reason why ID and evolution have to be mutually exclusive. Perhaps God isn't always a twitchy instant-gratification type, and preferred to set some wheels in motion, and then watch and see what happened. I just don't see why it's so hard to reconcile the two, and why people can't just accept that perhaps there are two ways of looking at the same thing - a scientific way, and a religious way.

As for the whole 'social Darwinism' thing, are we talking about those times when you see someone doing something *really* stupid, and you make an uncharitable comment about them removing themselves from the gene pool, or are we talking about the people who use things like head measurements to 'prove' that one race is smarter than another?

Because if it's the second, then using evolutionary theory to be racist is pretty much just the logical follow-on from using religion to be racist - assholes will always find a way to adapt whatever new idea or theory comes along to fit their agendas. That's not going to change. Part of human nature, unfortunately.

...or maybe we'll evolve out of it? =P Maybe God is sitting somewhere trawling through lines of code going 'I'm *sure* I debugged this bit...why is there *always* a semicolon still missing when you try and hit compile?!?!?'

=D

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

"That's right, around 50% of the population of the United States does not believe in evolution, and that is sad"

Who put you on such a high horse? You know what? Your saying its sad that people don't believe in what you do, and that is sad. Seriously most people don't give a shit about Human evolution so deal with it. Why do people who strongly believe in Evolution have to be such dick heads? Sorry we can't all be like you.

It is sad. It is like refusing to believe in germ theory or the theory of gravity. People are ignoring a mountain of evidence because they are afraid to question their beliefs.