Great, you have open the debate for who do own the content of let's players, I do not want that debate. Please feel free to come with an example of Sarkeesian practicing what you are saying (without linking it).Tenmar said:
The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian
- Thread starter MovieBob
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I would actually argue that her videos make such simple points that they are best suited to educate people who didn't take feminist classes or know very little about feminism in general. But of course, you have to have interest in the material in the first place, which usually happen to be people who are already interested in Feminism and are already partly knowledgeable about it.Goliath100 said:
If anything what these videos have going for them is that they discuss video games in relation to feminist issues, which is pretty unique.
It was something i thought might have needed more qualities other than brandishing a saucepan, to be motherly. Ive brandished many a saucepan...then again, i'm not the most masculine guy ever...so you could be onto something there. OH and i like kittensCaptain Pooptits said:
again? i really wish people would just let this thing go. stop feeding her popularity with articles like this. this is just one f***ing woman who happens to make a few sloppy youtube videos about games. So what? there are millions of other youtube videos about games, many of them from women. this celebritism [http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Celebritism] is making me sick.
Maybe, but I'll argue that her language is only suitable for they who already knows feminism lingo and ideas.Story said:
I don't respect Anita Sarkeesian work because it's aggressively propagandistic. She uses almost every cheap text-book propaganda trick in her videos.
Also, she never mentions positive changes that are happening in games. Why doesn't she talk about Gone Home, Mass Effect or the Walking Dead? Because it doesn't suit her one-sided lies.
I'm not against her message and I don't think that there's no truth to what she is trying to say, but I don't respect her methods, and simply can't trust her words.
Also, she never mentions positive changes that are happening in games. Why doesn't she talk about Gone Home, Mass Effect or the Walking Dead? Because it doesn't suit her one-sided lies.
I'm not against her message and I don't think that there's no truth to what she is trying to say, but I don't respect her methods, and simply can't trust her words.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: she means well, but her videos are a fucking bore. Goes in circles too often and for too long, probably because she doesn't have a lot of ideas to flesh out.
Holy Hell Bob, nice feelgood piece. Shame it's wasted on someone as insignificant as Sarkeesian.
She has said conflicting statements about being a fan of videogames (I view this as a gray area, it's entirely possible she picked up the passion recently), she points out negative examples but no positives (yes there can be some), she offers no possible solutions to the inherent "misogyny", she uses clips from LPs without sourcing em (not a big deal, but it would be nice and would show exactly which games she didn't bother to play herself), and she uses clips out of context in order to sell her view (which is the biggest sin here). Let's see, what else, oh!, she still uses the "I was harassed online" card to get sympathy and bash her haters. She also offers no link between videogames and real-life misogyny (similar to some other argument we're tired of) and her view of a strong female character is..., well I don't know: on one hand she bashes games where the female character doesn't fight back for saying women are weak and ineffectual, but on the other she bashes games for having female characters who [i/]do[/i] fight back by saying it shows that women are weak and ineffectual since they always fail and get kidnapped or whatever. In essence, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. She's like Kreia from KotOR2, only more asinine. And if you read her thesis paper you'll notice her chart for positive feminine traits is pretty sparse and prone to some unfortunate implications.
Still, she is looking at a problem which needs to be addressed, I just don't think she's the right person to be looking at it.
She has said conflicting statements about being a fan of videogames (I view this as a gray area, it's entirely possible she picked up the passion recently), she points out negative examples but no positives (yes there can be some), she offers no possible solutions to the inherent "misogyny", she uses clips from LPs without sourcing em (not a big deal, but it would be nice and would show exactly which games she didn't bother to play herself), and she uses clips out of context in order to sell her view (which is the biggest sin here). Let's see, what else, oh!, she still uses the "I was harassed online" card to get sympathy and bash her haters. She also offers no link between videogames and real-life misogyny (similar to some other argument we're tired of) and her view of a strong female character is..., well I don't know: on one hand she bashes games where the female character doesn't fight back for saying women are weak and ineffectual, but on the other she bashes games for having female characters who [i/]do[/i] fight back by saying it shows that women are weak and ineffectual since they always fail and get kidnapped or whatever. In essence, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. She's like Kreia from KotOR2, only more asinine. And if you read her thesis paper you'll notice her chart for positive feminine traits is pretty sparse and prone to some unfortunate implications.
Still, she is looking at a problem which needs to be addressed, I just don't think she's the right person to be looking at it.
Why should anyone cater to anyone?shiajun said:
You know what?
Best examples of games came out of "white male dominated" era
Just from the surface of my brain
Fallout, Planescape, Baldur's Gate, System Shock, Deus Ex, X-Com, The Elder Scrolls, Age of Empires, GTA and Daikatana (best example of how NOT to do game development
)And I would slap anyone who would claim that these games are played and loved only or even mostly by white males.
So maybe we should not bother game developers with political/ideological bullshit, but rather leave their creative process alone?
If game ends up shit we laugh at it and forget about it month later.
If game ends up good we praise it and throw our money at it.
But pressuring someone to take a stance when developing a game is rather stupid.
Because in that case we end up with game like "Remember me"
You know guys, if we want to get anywhere with anything, the first step is going to require us to stop trying to tear each others throats out the second someone actually has a different opinion. People who like her aren't mindlessly kissing up to her and people that don't like her aren't sexist MRA activists, ok? Can we please talk about this WITHOUT getting pissed off in five seconds?
Uhh, I tried to not post anything cause I know it is just a bad idea, and there are many other posts that are probably just as deserving, but here goes nothing.The Dubya said:
First CAPITALIZING some WORDS is not an EFFECTIVE technique to prove your POINT. I don't necessarily think Anita is the best video creator, or a great orator, or even a very good debater, but just dismissing everything she says as wrong because you feel differently is not a good argument. Many games (including Super Mario) are kind of sexist. In most of the the mario games, Peach is made out to be a ditsy princess who is just an object to reclaim. The damsel in distress is a trope, and is way too prevalent. The problem is that Princess Peach is not made into a character but just an object that must be gotten back. There is no love story between Mario and Peach (at least not really), no real connection, and peach is just a stereotypical pink princess with a super high pitch voice yelling out "Help me Mario". Yes the badguys are also objectifying the woman, but there is a difference between one badguy being sexist, and the game being sexist. It is the same problem with early Disney princess movies with their ditsy princesses getting into trouble and needing a beautiful white man to save them.
*Reads various comments about Anita's tendency to use her publicity to further her credentials and her cause, and cannot help but think back to a quote from the movie "Lincoln."*
"Thaddeus Stevens: I'm sorry you're nauseous, Asa, that must be unpleasant. I want the amendment to pass. So that the Constitution's first and only mention of slavery is its absolute prohibition. For this amendment, for which I have worked all of my life and for which countless colored men and women have fought and died and now hundreds of thousands of soldiers. No, sir, no, it seems there is very nearly nothing I won't say."
"Thaddeus Stevens: I'm sorry you're nauseous, Asa, that must be unpleasant. I want the amendment to pass. So that the Constitution's first and only mention of slavery is its absolute prohibition. For this amendment, for which I have worked all of my life and for which countless colored men and women have fought and died and now hundreds of thousands of soldiers. No, sir, no, it seems there is very nearly nothing I won't say."
Huh? I think that is silly, you can't just dismiss legitimate complaints about what she does by saying that everyone who complains or criticizes it as a "men's rights activist" I've been exceptionally critical of her and for many valid reasons. I'm an exceptionally reasonable guy as well and do acknowledge that there is sexism in the world but Anita isn't someone who can credibly argue for some sort of change with how women are portrayed in video games. She attacks gaming as a whole, and focuses on what ever supports her "analysis" of what is wrong with video games and gaming culture and ignores and actively suppresses anything that doesn't do that.BreakfastMan said:
She starts off her "research" by reaching a conclusion and then actively going out to look for things that support her conclusion. That isn't how you do research, you gather a body of data and then draw you conclusion from that data. The reason video games are "sexist" is because she needs them to be, because if they weren't she wouldn't be making money.
Money is what she wants and the only time she has invited or allowed for criticism is when she stood to benefit from it.
I'm currently in class so I can't dig through her videos very well to find them. But I'll take a second look once I'm done.Goliath100 said:
Edit:
Here are just some I could find in just watching the 2nd video again:
Trope Cocktails: joining together many negative representations of women: 5:45-5:54
Women in the Refrigerator: the role of female characters that are brutalized or killed to move the male character's story arc 6:05-6:13
Damsel in the Refrigerator: then hero's sweetheart is murdered and her soul is then captured and must be rescued 8:55-9:9:20
Violence against women: primarily focused on women being victimized or when violence is linked to a character's gender or sexuality 10:47-11:12
There are a lot more, including a bunch in the first and third videos. but I'm going to stop right there. I don't want to write a report out of this. I will say it would have been nice if Anita defined terms like patriarchy. But its a rather mixed bag.
I am open-minded and rational. That is why I came to the conclusion that the MRA are horrible bigots. I despise them as much as I despise neo-nazis, the klan, the westboro baptist church, or any other horrible bigot group. They don't need to have killed family members for me to recognize them as being absolutely toxic and despicable.blackrave said:
This is the most dangerous woman in video games? I guess we've got a long way to go, then. I mean, she hasn't even escaped from a satellite prison or used a fake bullet hole sticker to destroy a surveillance plane.
Just look at the people who get called 'most dangerous' in other media. I mean it. I'll even give you a link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-EnE8y48Wo).
Now that is what I call 'most dangerous.' You really think Sarkeesian has what it takes to break into a giant robot-guarded compound to deactivate the ultimate genocidal death weapon and then turn around and switch it back on? The most damage she can do is give bad ideas to the Mirror's Edge team, and they had plenty of those on their own.
Just look at the people who get called 'most dangerous' in other media. I mean it. I'll even give you a link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-EnE8y48Wo).
Now that is what I call 'most dangerous.' You really think Sarkeesian has what it takes to break into a giant robot-guarded compound to deactivate the ultimate genocidal death weapon and then turn around and switch it back on? The most damage she can do is give bad ideas to the Mirror's Edge team, and they had plenty of those on their own.
I don't know what good not linking relevant information will do but I'll play your game. According to the YouTube terms of service, users are allowed to use video and audio footage from any channel (their may be some stipulations) so long as the original video footage they are sourcing is still hosted on the site. That means that Anita using other people's footage is not legally wrong so long as those people don't take down their videos or file a claim. However, in the realm of academia it's damn near an ironclad law to properly cite your sources. Sources can also include A/V content that you did not produce yourself which is the case now. While Anita has at least mentioned the names of all the games she features on her website, she has not in any way credited the people who recorded and uploaded that footage she uses.Goliath100 said:
Their is an argument to be made about whether or not Let's Players should be credited for this kind of thing especially when the games they are recording were not created by them. But I do find it questionable for Anita to use other peoples work in her project, and then offer to sell this complete package as DVD's and School Curriculum.
It would be unreasonable for anyone doing this kind of work to have to play through 50+ games that might range between 4 and 40+ hours just to find 20 seconds of footage they want to use. But it is shady as heck that the people who did do that work don't get any credit or even notification beforehand
On another topic; to anyone who read the article I would like to draw your attention to Bob's closing statements.
I get the reason why Bob phrased the statement that way, but it paints an unrealistic picture for how people should view their enjoyment of the medium. Does anybody who plays games unconditionally love the hobby? I know as a kid I thought video games were one of the best things ever, but at my age I know enough about the industry, community, products, etc to have more than a few problems with how things are. Call me jaded, but I don't think video games will ever reach the point where people love the medium unconditionally because their will always exist something that they don't like or support.
And as far as women specifically being "excluded" from gaming. What in the last 30 years of gaming has shown to demonstrate this? It is how female characters are getting more favorable treatment in their depiction? (compare Laura Croft in the PS1 generation to her most recent incarnation. Guess who isn't an over sex symbol anymore?)
Is it how our community treats women who play the hobby? Remember the sexual harassment of a female fighting game player at last years Cross Assault tournament? Remember how a few guys being rude and downright creepy caused her to throw the tournament and drop out? I know it sucks that stuff like this still happens but here is what happened immediately after. The player Aris was gifted the first place prize of the tournament, The people responsible for harassing her were barred from future events (last I checked this was still in effect). Capcom, one of the larger sponsors of the event, offered an apology on behalf of themselves and other sponsors and stated that behavior like that was unacceptable. Even the gaming community came together to show that they did not want gaming to be a place where women cannot be.
I'll say it again, our community will always have people who say or do things that we don't like. Their will always be games that people find "problematic" for whatever reason they might have. Their will always be immature, rude, hateful, and dissenting persons within gaming. We can either treat them as the norm, or we can treat them as the exception to the norm. Anita seems to think that all the bad people make up the majority of gaming, but the reality is that they are our vocal minority.