The Problem With Twilight

Recommended Videos

MovieBob

New member
Dec 31, 2008
11,495
0
0
so to start off i am a mormon who also went to byu. we don't believe that women should be subjugated to their husbands nor do we believe that they are less than equal to men in any way. So i think it is probably just a female fantasy or whatnot that begat twilight. Besides how many of us guy nerds love things that most women find stupid or repulsive (terminator, star wars, most anime, the so called "sexist" james bond films, etc). i also don't think us guys will ever understand this twilight pandemic nor do i think that the auhor every really meant any of that. remember, this franchise was written for teens.

The author of these books has also written a novel for adults called 'the host' which isn't nearly as bad/cheesy/cliche or as poorly written as twilight so go easy on her.

i guess in closing you wouldn't want someone to bring up how strange or degrading to society GTA is so why not give these twihards a rest and 'let it be'.
 

Aphroditty

New member
Nov 25, 2009
133
0
0
Seldon2639 said:
For perspective's sake, though, is the "your life revolves around your life interest" any different from any romantic comedy? I mean, a review of even some of Gaiman's work would have some very similar undertones of female vulnerability, male heroism, ect.

Every form of media focused on romance is based in large part on the premise that "my life revolves around my love". I mean, come on, from D.N Angel and Full Metal Panic to Stardust, to John Cusack's extended resume, it's all about obsession (perhaps love) being the driving force in someone's life.

True, the male-centric stories tend more toward the deed of daring do, but even that's tinged by the "manipulative *****" aspect; and if we assume that young men are just as empty-headed as young women, then the entire catalog of tropes in that genre are doing just as much harm.

How about we count it all as escapist fantasy, and assume that the readers (male and female) can distinguish between fiction and reality.
Having never read the books, but getting informed second-hand (not a good way to go about it, but I'll be damned if I could have slogged through them :p) I ended up coming to more or less the same conclusion as MovieBob here, simply on a very broad level. The difference was that, while I very much disagree with virtually all the series' implicit assumptions (and later conclusions) surrounding sex, femininity and all that jazz, much of the backlash against Twilight seems to be based less on that and more on the fact that it is the story of a girl (well... the story of things happening to a girl, maybe), and girls like it a lot.

If we saw a similar story with a male protagonist, it would be similarly ridiculed--although your arguments were very much to the point, the crux of the discomfort people feel with all this "your life revolves around The One" lies with Bella's complete and hilariously old-fashioned lack of agency. Of course, if it were a male protagonist we wouldn't be criticizing him for being a co-dependent limp noodle, but for acting like a... lady (for "the vulva is a void while the phallus is a presence"). And, of course, if it were directed to the male audience the story would not be so riotously popular, since the idea has little cachet with dudes in our culture. Thus the criticism would be correspondingly low-key.

Anyway, let me get back to the probably-controversial assertion that Twilight is hated so virilely because of its fans--not because its fans are merely annoying (annoying fans get plenty of hate no matter what!) but because its fans are females. This is where your arguments really take on merit with me, because there does appear to be a double standard.

Males get and love books with sometimes-dodgy moralism that is tailored to their particular programmed* idiocy, at least on the level of Twlight, and females get and love books with sometimes-dodgy moralism that is tailored to their particular programmed idiocy, yet it seems there is an immense upwelling of disdain and hatred for the "tweens" who love Twilight which has little basis in the reality of Twilight's effects. It is going to be little more than a speed bump in the vast majority of people's development, and it is hardly the end of our civilization as we know it. People forget that this is "escapist fantasy" and fail to realize "that the readers (male and female) can distinguish between fiction and reality" (apologies for mangling your words).


*When I say "programmed" I mean "things that culture dictates, marketers pick up on, and then the things they produce and how they market it propagates what culture dictates".
 

Rigs83

Elite Member
Feb 10, 2009
1,932
0
41
Not G. Ivingname said:
MovieBob said:
The Problem With Twilight

It's more than just bad moviemaking.

Read Full Article
Silly Bob! The Middle ages didn't have wars fought over a single woman. That is the stone age we are talking about! Hit girl with club and she is yours to drag to your cave! Get your history right.

Actually medieval Kings often dispatched knights and soldiers to rescue princesses. They did this mainly to enforce treaties or to lay claim to dowries. No one went to war for love. I think they mention it in last vid but I included it all because I love history.
[/youtube]

[/youtube]
And don't forget
[/youtube]
 

KingPiccolOwned

New member
Jan 12, 2009
1,039
0
0
PhiMed said:
Fearzone said:
Social attitudes around sexual promiscuity and restraint do not progress in one direction but rather cycle back and forth throughout history. Just look at the Romans.
Suggesting that the fall of Rome was not kind of a step backwards for society?
Well yes it was, but remember that most of the concept of patriarchy in European culture came from Roman ideals. In fact in ancient Rome the act of sex was regarded as an expression of a man's authority over his female, or other male, partner. So basically in Rome sex was about power (or money) not love.
 

Silva

New member
Apr 13, 2009
1,122
0
0
You know the best way to stop Twilight from spreading its terribly unethical message?

Stop. Writing. About. It.

I will say no more.
 

Vitor Goncalves

New member
Mar 22, 2010
1,155
0
0
MovieBob said:
Patriarchal-omnipotence. The surrendered wife. Virginity as commodity. Female sexuality as something deadly to be controlled. Women being defined entirely by what sort of men lay claim to them. This isn't just anti-feminist, it's anti-female, period - and anti-modern and anti-individual to boot. This is bad stuff, and it's bad stuff that most modern cultures have spent a long, arduous time digging themselves out of. But like some kind of stubborn recurring cancer, here it is again, tossed back to the surface by the combined might of amusingly well-coiffed vampires (who, for some reason, are apparently made of plaster) and very large puppies who are alternately a family of Native American underwear models. Of course, "cancer" is just my opinion. I'm sure there are folks who're positively giddy at the prospect of cultural backsliding - I mean, someone is buying Dinesh D'Souza's books, right?
They are old? Did modern societies dig out of it?! Don't be naive. If that's so, why are women less payed them man, why there is such small number of women in political roles, why the vast majority of countries never had a female ruler?! Why the US never had a female president?! Why are women the ones almost all the time sacrificing their carriers for child care?! Why is there so much domestic violence?! Why are women portrayed as sexual objects so much in fiction?!

As for the article, I still can't understand why are we still talking about Twilight if the escapists ate it so much?!
 

Giest4life

The Saucepan Man
Feb 13, 2010
1,554
0
0
I think you are blowing this way out of proportion. Yes you mentioned that Ms. Myers had put in conscious effort in including the virginity=goodness thematic elements, but even then, I don't that Twilight can have that much an effect that it need be feared. I mean it's no Malleus Malfeicarum, and these are not the Middle Ages when such literature will actually leave an impression--not in the face of such adversity in the media anyway.
 

Giest4life

The Saucepan Man
Feb 13, 2010
1,554
0
0
KingPiccolOwned said:
PhiMed said:
Fearzone said:
Social attitudes around sexual promiscuity and restraint do not progress in one direction but rather cycle back and forth throughout history. Just look at the Romans.
Suggesting that the fall of Rome was not kind of a step backwards for society?
Well yes it was, but remember that most of the concept of patriarchy in European culture came from Roman ideals. In fact in ancient Rome the act of sex was regarded as an expression of a man's authority over his female, or other male, partner. So basically in Rome sex was about power (or money) not love.
It was the same in the classical cultures, Roman and Greek, and no, their fall wasn't a step back for humanity; the Greeks killed Socrates, and they nearly killed Aristotle. And the Romans had a class structure even more rigid and restrictive than the Greeks. So good riddance I say.
 

knight steel

New member
Jul 6, 2009
1,793
0
0
MovieBob said:
The Problem With Twilight

It's more than just bad moviemaking.

Read Full Article
I think you might be reading a little bit to deep into the franchise moviebob my old man. I doubt that any one else will see the book/movies like that and i doubt that there any real proof to what your saying...........although that's just my view.

As for the books i read them and they weren't bad, not good but readable at least and the movies well i hated the first two but i think that eclipse was ok.All in all twilight is just a corny romance novel giving girls their wish:the perfect guy nothing more nothing less.
 

Flankhard

New member
Mar 28, 2010
40
0
0
For the love of God, just stop it Bob. You are fighting a loosing battle. Twilight was never intended for pre-middleaged portly guyes like you an me. I relized that about 20 minutes into the first movie and left it at that. For us they made the Underworld series. Where the message is that unless you can literally rip a man in halv with your bare hands, you won't get to have it off with the hot girl (the typical male fantasy - and I love it).

So, even though you are right, you are also wrong. You are basically telling millions of young women that theyr fantasies are silly and that they are too stupid to even realize it. Just because something is technically bad from a movie-making or writing perspective, dosen't mean it can't be enjoyed. Judging by the popularity of this series it is obvious that no matter how wrong the subliminal message is, it taps into some female fantasy that us men don't relate to.

Personally I have fate in my female counter parts and I belive they are able to see through all the bollocks and still enjoy this. Rather then ripping on it I am going to let them endulge in it, because there is already plenty of stuff out there that will endulge my male fantasies (however rude, sordid and wrong they are).

Bottom line: At first glanze it might look like you are doing the noble thing and defend womens rights but in realty you are just enforcing the male view that women are too stupid to know whats good or not and need men to guide them and put them on the right track.
 

droppingpenny

New member
Feb 27, 2010
96
0
0
Maybe all of what Moviebob wrote here is true, but at the same time in order of it to work, the target audience has to get the subliminal message, which it probably won't, and will forget this series as soon as the last movie is released.
 

Necromancer1991

New member
Apr 9, 2010
805
0
0
Yeah I mean serious Bellah is pathetic, she's on suicide watch the entire series and frankly is just unlikeable, give me a headstrong independent female lead any day. As far as the message is concerned it's sort of lost in all the fan-girl stupidity and that "Team Jacob" vs "Team Edward" crap, I'm not saying the message is good, just pointless, once the next fan-girl rallying series raises it's ugly head twilight will hopefully be forgotten.
 

Palademon

New member
Mar 20, 2010
4,167
0
0
I would've considered different, more obvious bad moral messages, but I really don't think it's the books/films that annoy people (apart from the sparkling and possible over-angsty bahaviour) but the shallow girls that only go to watch the films for the attractive men, weren't fans before then, and then they consider themselves 'fans of twilight'. That's not being a fan of Twilight and for some reason they find nothing wrong with them screaming at the film screen to their favourite actor as he takes his shirt off while their boyfriend is there with them, and they wouldn't care if their partner were to take his shirt off. But, they believe it's ok, because obviously if they had the choice would rather be with that guy they've never met.
 

Fearzone

Boyz! Boyz! Boyz!
Dec 3, 2008
1,240
0
0
PhiMed said:
Fearzone said:
Social attitudes around sexual promiscuity and restraint do not progress in one direction but rather cycle back and forth throughout history. Just look at the Romans.
Suggesting that the fall of Rome was not kind of a step backwards for society?
That's a complicated question for which I don't have a quick answer, but I don't think the fall of Rome had much to do with social values and much more to do with economic sustainability of military expansionism. The point is, throughout history attitudes on sex span the spectrum from society to society and I doubt anyone could convincingly show any linear "forward" or "backward" direction over time.