The R Word

Helmholtz Watson

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Shjade said:
Your example doesn't hold up. A more appropriate example would be I have a license to go hunting that there are animal rights activist that are offended by my activity. They have a right to be offended, but it doesn't stop me from being allowed to hunt.

itsthesheppy said:
No. I mean the text you quoted me as saying, I didn't type.
...oh. Apologies.

itsthesheppy said:
If you don't care enough about trauma victims to do your part to make the community safer for them, and for everyone, then I'll thank you to at the very least not stand in the way of people who are trying.
I won't get in your way as long as you don't try to push your agenda on me
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Some random zippy thoughts

When things enter into the realm of fiction they become a spices if not world. Rape,violence,sex,ect,ect,ect. All are modes of transportation to take a story from one event to another. However they are used always let who/what/when/where be the debate. Also using words incorrectly (ie retard,rape,ect) is what humans do.

They take hard to inane volatile concepts and make fun of it. Life is harsher than any of us, to make us try and not mis use some words as so we can have an appearance of respect or notion as to the real meaning of the word in use which at the middle point of conversation both sides are taking things out of context.(IE neither understanding the other side more than moronic morality police or inane sht talking punk or silly idiotic humor ).

Its nonsensical and smacks of fake and false and illusionary make believe happy time. At a point and time one dose have to grow some thick skin or people in general will grow more to take the most inane things all the more personally which dose none of us any good. It?s a word, we are the ones that give them power, they have many meanings and innuendos per individual and many many more variants strewn across the world. Your good intentions to clean up humanities vocabulary might well be all and fine but it?s a very asinine task if you ask me.

edit

Oh and can we get the crime of rape to be equal to that of murder so we can cull them from the prison rosters....

edit
IMO this its more situational based meaning that people must take time be careful/respectful around the traumatized person, this is not going to happen by white washing the issue and saying that all poor/inane usages of the trigger words are the problem IMO.
 

itsthesheppy

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Helmholtz Watson said:
itsthesheppy said:
If you don't care enough about trauma victims to do your part to make the community safer for them, and for everyone, then I'll thank you to at the very least not stand in the way of people who are trying.
I won't get in your way as long as you don't try to push your agenda on me
If by 'push agenda' you mean 'ask you not to use offensive language' then I make no promises.
 

Muspelheim

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JerrytheBullfrog said:
He's not forcing anybody to not say anything. He's saying that you should think before you speak because you could *be hurting someone* with your words.

Buuuut I don't think you really get that, seeing as how you've said that an article about a man baring his soul about one of the most excruciating things that can happen to a human being is a "terrible article with dangerous ramifications."

That may be one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard somebody say.
It's not worth it, mate. In his mind, he's bravely defending his rights and the concept of free speech on the barricades, while we, the majority, tries to silence him and general righteousness, repressing the minority und so weiter...

Some people seem to think basic consideration for other people is too much of a prize to pay.

Helmholtz Watson said:
I won't get in your way as long as you don't try to push your agenda on me
Again, behaving like a considering, respectful adult is hardly an agenda.
 

Mishell Baker

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In response to the question: how am I supposed to know there is a rape victim in the room if I am not told?

Count people in earshot. Ten or more? Safe to assume there is a rape victim in the room. Way easier just to pick a different word.
 

Ipsen

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CosmicCommander said:
I was deeply moved by this, truly.

When I finished reading and reflected, though, I thought of that legendary line from Shakespeare "What's in a name?" Sure, you touched on the point that the definition of words change over time, but the fact of the matter is is that the word "rape" isn't used in malice or cruelty or intentionally used to cause upset. The only reason it causes upset is that those who immediately correlate the word with their own horrific experiences -- like yourself. Indeed, I'd say that although some gamers could use some soap in their mouths, conflating words (abstract concepts, on their own) with experiences may very well lead to difficulty in any element of life.

Trivialising rape is bad, of course. But using the word rape in a completely different context as many gamers do shouldn't attract as much upset. I remember something Charlie Chaplain once said: "Laughter is the tonic, the relief, the surcease for pain." If we let concepts and ideas hurt us so, we truly give in to them. We must laugh at them, ultimately. In a sense, gamers have come to embody this; in the face of every atrocity and tragedy, the general reaction is to laugh at it in some new and creative way in defiance of sadness and shock.

My interpretation, anyway. I know, I'm a psuedo-intellectual fuck.
I would say why it's still bad to use rape in a manner even without malice becomes more clear when you ask yourself, "When experiencing something, which comes first, the thought, or the feeling?". It kinda seems like a 'chicken or the egg' argument, but I think myself that the feeling comes first, so those affected by trauma of, say, rape, are going to feel the hell first, then be able to think about it.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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CaptainKarma said:
In this case, it's because you may trigger violent and distressing flashbacks, as well as it being shockingly tactless, and trivialising violent acts.
So instead of having fun, I should be walking on egg shells for other people? No thanks.

CaptainKarma said:
And don't try and make comparisons with murder or genocide. Yes, they're horrible, and its tactless to use those words, but society is pretty open about them being bad. Rape is still trivialised, people are either not believed, treated as if they were asking for it, victim blamed, told to just get over it etc. It's not about the word, its about the way society treats the thing.
And this has what to do with what I should or shouldn't say on Xbox live?

Creatural said:
Then why would a rape survivor have any less of a right to play a game and not hear horrible things reminding them of a horrible thing in their past?
They have every right to mute people they don't want to listen to.

Creatural said:
And before you bring it up, we're talking about the word rape here as it's the word being used. Starving, genocide, and murder aren't typically used in these situations and I think you're aware of that. I don't think it's right either to bring up those words for people who have suffered traumas relating to their own pasts, before you bring that up as well.
Nonsense, those words are used like that. Go look at my previous post about Project Gotham racing and Midnight Club.

Creatural said:
Someone who's been abused and sexually assaulted, hearing a rape joke is more likely to be hurt than when hearing a abuse joke since they know that the person they're hearing these things from is going to treat one of these things far more seriously in real life and they don't have a guarantee they won't rape someone given the chance as society treats that far less seriously than they should.
Appealing to emotion fallacy. Give my a reason that I shouldn't be allowed to say the word rape that doesn't include appealing to emotion.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Muspelheim said:
Again, behaving like a considering, respectful adult is hardly an agenda.
Telling me how I have to behave on Xbox live because you don't like it and it goes against your ideas, is an agenda that I don't have to agree with or abide by.

EDIT:
itsthesheppy said:
Helmholtz Watson said:
itsthesheppy said:
If you don't care enough about trauma victims to do your part to make the community safer for them, and for everyone, then I'll thank you to at the very least not stand in the way of people who are trying.
I won't get in your way as long as you don't try to push your agenda on me
If by 'push agenda' you mean 'ask you not to use offensive language' then I make no promises.
Then I can't promise that I won't get in your way.
 

Ipsen

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Helmholtz Watson said:
Appealing to emotion fallacy. Give my a reason that I shouldn't be allowed to say the word rape that doesn't include appealing to emotion.
There's no answer I can give you that does not concern emotion, but impossible scenarios easily, even definitely sprout from other, earlier impossible scenarios. While you'd have reason to use the word rape how you'd like if no emotion involved, emotion is always involved with people. Just think for a bit why you continue to post here.
 

Mike Kayatta

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For those of you claiming that the word rape should be allowed as slang because "it doesn't carry that meaning for everyone" or that victims should "get over it," I have to ask ... why? Is it such a difficult task that you be asked to avoid careless expressions like"fag" or "rape" because it may spare someone else's feelings? Does you not being able to use those words somehow cause you harm or hurt your ability to communicate? Why should it ever be acceptable for people to cast aside all thoughts of others just for the lazy luxury of using the first word that comes to mind? There are people in the world who've dealt with serious hardship, hardship which hopefully most of you will never have to endure. If you do, however, I for one hope others will act with less callousness and more care regarding your sensitivities than you've been willing to afford those whose feelings you're so readily dismissing at present.
 

Patrick Gann

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I'm very thankful to you, anonymous author, for sharing this. I strive to speak in ways that provoke people to thoughtfulness, not to instinctive reactions of fear and pain. I have, of course, violated that self-imposed rule hundreds of times. But I'm trying to improve, and your candor helps me move in that direction. Thank you thank you thank you. And stay strong; even with that limp, you are strong!!
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Anonymous said:
Actually, I have family members who are victims of genocide. I don't mean "they are part of an ethnic group that had genocide perpetrated against them," I mean they themselves were beaten, starved, chased from their homes by soldiers, and saw their houses destroyed. For whatever reason, they don't respond to those words in the way rape victims often respond to slang uses of the word "rape." (Even though many of them have post-traumatic stress disorder.) Having said that, I know a lot of Jews who don't appreciate Holocaust jokes, so -- no, I don't think joking about genocide is somehow "okay" either.
The point was that I find it odd that rape is treated delicately, but should people use words like genocide, murder or kill, little is said about it.

Anonymous said:
I'm not forcing anyone stop using the word "rape," I just want people to understand that it can be hurtful, and make a conscious decision about whether or not using the word is worth the damage it can cause. Some people will be okay with it, some won't, but as it stands many people haven't considered why others would be hurt by the term.
As long as you give people the choice and are not trying to force them to agree with you, you and I have no issues.
 

MelTorefas

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I am male, and not a rape victim, but I react EXTREMELY negatively when I see rape taken lightly/taken as acceptable entertainment. Even as I type this I have to restrain myself from directing exceptionally harsh language at those who would (conceptually, not specifically from this thread) disagree. My close friends know not to talk about it around me. They don't really get why I react the way I do to it, and I don't either. But I absolutely vehemently WILL NOT stand for it. It isn't something to joke about, it ISN'T a 'feminist issue' (in regards to which I agree with the author's view of what constitutes 'feminist issues'). It is about something that is utterly reprehensible and inexcusable, something that causes serious problems for the people who live through it, something that absolutely should not be taken lightly or for sport. I cannot thank the author enough for writing this. For those who have been victims of rape, and do use the word casually, I would advise them against using it such, as a rule. Just because it isn't a trigger for them doesn't mean they get a free pass there.

[The following added via Edit]
When people make jokes or try to justify rape porn as acceptable, or things like that, or (like in the author's example) CHEER for a character to be raped, I want those people to hurt. I want them to hurt as much as anyone who has ever been a victim of rape to hurt. Irrational, but me.

That being said, the only place I disagreed with the author was in regards to overcoming it. Not something to take lightly or shrug off, definitely, but I do absolutely believe it can be overcome.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Ipsen said:
Helmholtz Watson said:
Appealing to emotion fallacy. Give my a reason that I shouldn't be allowed to say the word rape that doesn't include appealing to emotion.
There's no answer I can give you that does not concern emotion, but impossible scenarios easily, even definitely sprout from other, earlier impossible scenarios. While you'd have reason to use the word rape how you'd like if no emotion involved, emotion is always involved with people. Just think for a bit why you continue to post here.
I have and I will ignore logical fallacies like appealing to emotion.

Mike Kayatta said:
For those of you claiming that the word rape should be allowed as slang because "it doesn't carry that meaning for everyone" or that victims should "get over it," I have to ask ... why? Is it such a difficult task that you be asked to avoid careless expressions like"fag" or "rape" because it may spare someone else's feelings?
Your appeal to emotiont fallacy aside, why should we have to censor ourselves? Why can't a person just mute us if they don't like what we have to say?
Mike Kayatta said:
Does you not being able to use those words somehow cause you harm or hurt your ability to communicate? Why should it ever be acceptable for people to cast aside all thoughts of others just for the lazy luxury of using the first word that comes to mind? There are people in the world who've dealt with serious hardship, hardship which hopefully most of you will never have to endure. If you do, however, I for one hope others will act with less callousness and more care regarding your sensitivities than you've been to those whose feelings you're so readily dismissing at present.
Your just blatantly appealing to emotion now.
 

Mike Kayatta

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Helmholtz Watson said:
Ipsen said:
Helmholtz Watson said:
Appealing to emotion fallacy. Give my a reason that I shouldn't be allowed to say the word rape that doesn't include appealing to emotion.
There's no answer I can give you that does not concern emotion, but impossible scenarios easily, even definitely sprout from other, earlier impossible scenarios. While you'd have reason to use the word rape how you'd like if no emotion involved, emotion is always involved with people. Just think for a bit why you continue to post here.
I have and I will ignore logical fallacies like appealing to emotion.

Mike Kayatta said:
For those of you claiming that the word rape should be allowed as slang because "it doesn't carry that meaning for everyone" or that victims should "get over it," I have to ask ... why? Is it such a difficult task that you be asked to avoid careless expressions like"fag" or "rape" because it may spare someone else's feelings?
Your appeal to emotion fallacy aside, why should we have to censor ourselves? Why can't a person just mute us if they don't like what we have to say?
Mike Kayatta said:
Does you not being able to use those words somehow cause you harm or hurt your ability to communicate? Why should it ever be acceptable for people to cast aside all thoughts of others just for the lazy luxury of using the first word that comes to mind? There are people in the world who've dealt with serious hardship, hardship which hopefully most of you will never have to endure. If you do, however, I for one hope others will act with less callousness and more care regarding your sensitivities than you've been to those whose feelings you're so readily dismissing at present.
Your just tenably appealing to emotion now.
It's not a fallacious appeal to emotion. It's an extremely simple point. Why do you need to use this word? What do you actually gain in comparison to what he and similar people actually lose? Period.
 

edos63

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I completely agree. Anyone who claims to be a supporter of feminism or men's rights yet argues superiority or more rights over the oppisite gender are not furthering their respective causes. They're just being sexist.
 

Creatural

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Helmholtz Watson said:
CaptainKarma said:
In this case, it's because you may trigger violent and distressing flashbacks, as well as it being shockingly tactless, and trivialising violent acts.
So instead of having fun, I should be walking on egg shells for other people? No thanks.

CaptainKarma said:
And don't try and make comparisons with murder or genocide. Yes, they're horrible, and its tactless to use those words, but society is pretty open about them being bad. Rape is still trivialised, people are either not believed, treated as if they were asking for it, victim blamed, told to just get over it etc. It's not about the word, its about the way society treats the thing.
And this has what to do with what I should or shouldn't say on Xbox live?

Creatural said:
Then why would a rape survivor have any less of a right to play a game and not hear horrible things reminding them of a horrible thing in their past?
They have every right to mute people they don't want to listen to.

Creatural said:
And before you bring it up, we're talking about the word rape here as it's the word being used. Starving, genocide, and murder aren't typically used in these situations and I think you're aware of that. I don't think it's right either to bring up those words for people who have suffered traumas relating to their own pasts, before you bring that up as well.
Nonsense, those words are used like that. Go look at my previous post about Project Gotham racing and Midnight Club.

Creatural said:
Someone who's been abused and sexually assaulted, hearing a rape joke is more likely to be hurt than when hearing a abuse joke since they know that the person they're hearing these things from is going to treat one of these things far more seriously in real life and they don't have a guarantee they won't rape someone given the chance as society treats that far less seriously than they should.
Appealing to emotion fallacy. Give my a reason that I shouldn't be allowed to say the word rape that doesn't include appealing to emotion.
Typical ≠ never used. Learn to read what I've written in response to you or don't bother making a response at all.

And okay, here we go, if you want to look at why you shouldn't make rape jokes to strangers without using emotions it's very simple. It can trigger them. Triggers can make people stop processing things well and they won't make logical decisions. Triggers can make people so unproductive that they can do none of the tasks that their society needs them to complete. Triggers can also make some people violent and physically harm other people in society.

I would argue though that as this is a discussion about people using the word rape in an emotional way to begin with, a joke which is inherently about emotions (it's about making you feel elated after all if a joke's "good") is what we're discussing. We're discussing the way people use rape in a kind of joking or victorious way in games. The victorious expression is also about emotion as it's expressing a feeling of triumph.

There is no way this argument isn't about emotion. If your argument is that emotions shouldn't come in to play here that won't make sense since jokes and victory expression are inherently emotional things and taking away emotion from this does no one any good. It defeats the purpose of these things entirely.

Prove to me how a joke isn't about emotion (which includes relieving stress, an emotion, and bringing happiness, an emotion) or how a victory cry isn't filled with emotion and we can argue about how neither of them should be treated emotionally.

Also, an emotional fallacy is a fallacy wherein I'd appeal to your emotions. I didn't. I gave you information on how most other people feel, based on statistics that I remember and personal experience, that doesn't automatically mean I'm appealing to your emotions. I'm not trying to make you cry. I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I'm just telling you how some people have felt. Don't use emotional fallacy when you don't know what it means.

Furthermore, if we're going to argue about emotions here, why do you want to use the word rape? Does it make you feel good? Do you like that word? What reason is there for you to use it other than an emotional attachment to it? It's just a word after all, and it doesn't even accurately describe what you're doing when you win a game against someone, so why use it?

I'm using the general you in that last part.
 

Muspelheim

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Helmholtz Watson said:
Telling me how I have to behave on Xbox live because you don't like it and it goes against your ideas, is an agenda that I don't have to agree with or abide by.
It isn't my ideas. It's what responsible, considerate adults are supposed to do; consider what words they let leave their mouths. Civility. I guarantee you, your world or your gaming experience will be in no way diminished because you consider what you say and what it may do to other players.

No, I can't really tell you how to behave on Xbox live. However, you will be judged by your behaviour, like everywhere else.

EDIT: I'm genuinly curious now. What exactly is it that you lose if you choose to not use certain words carelessly? There must be other, better ones, and you don't run the risk of being hurtful to some other person.
 

littlewisp

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Firstly, to the OP: I had a bad experience once where I stubbornly refused to use a safe word during sex. That brief window of time where I was utterly helpless and unable to stop what was going on gave me a tiny little window into what it might be like to be raped. So, from that meager perspective that in no way compares to yours (I like to think it makes my sympathy stronger), I hope you continue to improve in whatever way constitutes improvement, and I appreciate you stepping out and giving me better understanding into traumatic experiences.


That said, I feel like the people who are arguing one way or another just don't get it either way, or are so wrapped up with proving the other side "wrong" that they are refusing to truly consider things.

I'll tell you guys a story. In high school I was in the drama club. One day after school myself and two of my friends were sitting on the stage making awful jokes about just about everything. We got around to epilepsy, and before we knew it a teacher marched into the theater and told us to get our butts to her classroom. Unbeknownst to us her daughter had been listening to us in the back of the theater. We didn't know her very well, but guess what? Yup, she had epilepsy.

It didn't bother me that the teacher wanted to punish us, because yes we were being inappropriate and crass and saying things in school that you aren't allowed to. What bothered me was that the only thing she wanted to punish us for was our comments (and er. . .caricatures) of epilepsy. We had no way of knowing that her daughter had epilepsy, or even that she was watching us. Yet the teacher, blinded by her own motherly instinct to protect her daughter from hurt, inadvertantly gave us the message that all the other crude comments we were making were okay, but epilepsy was one holy subject that should never be made light of.

Here is my thing: if you are going to be sympathetic or empathetic, be that way about everything, and understand the venues. With close friends, I can be crass and rude. The second I see something is up (the way they talk, body language, etc) I stop. I won't press into it, but I can see that something is wrong and so I change the subject.

With strangers, I do my damndest to avoid the most common controversial things in order to not hurt a stranger, unless the venue calls for it (a discussion about it or whatever). Do I slip up? Of course, I'm human. But the point is, I have enough respect and concern for my fellow humans to put in the effort. Do I still use some words that could be considered hurtful? Yes. I use 'retarded' pretty frequently. Would I stop using it in the presence of someone who might find it hurtful? Absolutely.

Now, the difference between some of these words is the amount of personal involvement. The word 'genocide' is nothing more than a sort of statistic to most of us who have the luxury of playing video games, so it's less likely to have people defending it. Is it awful? Yes. Are you going to cause someone emotional or psychological pain/suffering by using it? Probably not. Does that make it okay to use in a casual, offhand manner as though people dying horribly is okay? No.

But in a lot of ways we are still children when it comes to horrible acts. Rape is a little more understandable, because for most of us we have had some sort of emotional hurt and have the brainpower to realize just how much more painful that would be over something that didn't wreck you. Sometimes in our inability to understand something we tend to make light of it because it is strange and foreign to us and that's what we tend to do. To me, that's in some way normal. However, even if you don't understand why something might be especially painful to someone, the polite thing -- the thing that imo makes humanity worth something -- is to try to act in a way that will no longer cause that person distress.

And the argument here inevitably becomes one of morals. If you are not in a headspace to care about other people, then you aren't. I've met some people like that, over the years. They are not people I care to be around. But, it is not my place to condemn them. In my mind, there's no telling what happened to them to make them that way, and in more cases than not it's something I pity them for. However, will that stop me from trying to ask them to behave differently so as to not cause harm (even if it seems stupid to them)? Nope.

Now, with all of that said, rape in my mind deserves a little more solemnity than words like 'murder' or 'genocide' in most first world cultures when dealing with your fellows simply due to the fact that you're far more likely to run into someone whose life has totally been screwed due to it. It's really damn unlikely you're going to cause pain to someone who experienced the trauma of seeing a close one murdered (as to me that's the only way the word is comparable to rape within the context of the discussion) or genocide. Does that mean I think people should go about using any of those words as though they are not each terrible things? No. But it does mean that I think using the word 'rape' indiscriminately as some sort of power word, while being cognizant of and understanding the pain it causes others, to show your domination over someone else is immature as all get out and a sign of someone who does not, in the end, care much for his or her fellows and not someone I would ever want to have anything to do with.

Also, as someone else said, saying 'I murdered you' in a video game is usually demonstrative of what is actually going on in the video game. Now if we want to talk about how murder/killing in video games is harmful or whatever, I think a new thread is needed for that.

Aaaand that's my soapbox for the year.

edit - one quick thing: saying 'I want to murder your mother' or 'I want to commit genocide upon you and your people' is as offensive as lightly using the word 'rape,' in my mind.