The R Word

[Calibanbutcher]

This and similar recent topics on rape on this forum are proof: you're victims because of rape, while physical violence is just a normal part of life. Your wife and kids were murdered? Tough break champ, as long as its not sexual assault YOU'RE FINE.

Absolutely nobody that I am aware of is suggesting that. In fact in the reply I posted above your post here, I make a point to say that everyone's trigger words are to be respected; however, some words, like 'kill' are so general and multi-purpose in our language that it is less likely to cause severe offense than the much-more-specific word of 'rape'.

I mean if I use the word "We beat them", the word 'beat' is very general. It's less likely to trigger someone, though if it did, I would certainly owe them an apology and be mindful around them in the future. The word 'rape' however is not multi-purpose. It means sexual assault. It's a much more specific word that calls to a specific trauma, and moreover, it's unnecessary to everyday gamer parlance. It can be omitted without losing anything of value, and doing so make the community that little bit safer and more inclusive.

nobody is saying the word should be illegal to use. All that's being said is that using it causes hurt; you're welcome to ignore that hurt, as I am welcome to consider you to be an insensitive person, and I reserve the right to make it clear that insensitive people are not welcome.

So and I am gonna kill you is not as specific as I am gonna rape you? There are more people who saw someone getting killed than someone beeing raped. So why is rape so special? A criminal and violent act is still the same and the victim will again be as much traumatized as someone who was beeing raped.

I'm sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to communicate to me. If English is not your first language, I apologize. But from what it sounds, you are bringing up an objection I've addressed before, and I suggest reading through the thread. This has been covered.

Yeah English is not my native language and I am sorry if you dont get my point.

I am just saying that you can hurt alot more people by saying "I am gonna beat you" than by saying "I am gonna rape you" Tons of people where abused as a kid so that they are now traumtized. why is it ok to say that while the change to hurt someone with "I am gonna Rape you" is much much lower than the "I am gonna kill you" or the I am gonna beat you" talk?

Rape should not be handled as something special. You should openly talk about it, you should be able to show it in any form of media and you should also stirr controversy about this topic so people are getting more aware of this. Trying to keep it a special and very delicate will not help anyone. Not even the victim itself.

Sorry, gotta side with sheppy here.
"Beat" is not specific enough to count as a trigger. Heck, even in sports it's ok to say a team "beat" the other. Mass-media usese "beat" quite frequently. A team can beat the odds, a politician can beat his rival (in the election). However, I have yet to heat a case of someone saying "Team A raped Team B" or "McPolit raped his rival".
There's a notable difference right here.
And if you want to trigger someone who has suffered abuse, then you would have to get quite specific, as "beat" has several meanings.
And "I beat you, just like your unloving parents did" is not only quite wordy for an insult, but also very, very insensitive.
Same goes for "Killing".
There are several different ways "kill" can be used as a word:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kill
And it is frequently used even when not referring to the act of taking somone's life.

An example:
I killed a shitton of beers - No problem.
I am going to kill you / I killed you - NOT ok in any circumstance, yet unlikely to triggger anything.
I am going to kill you just like I killed your parents, ripping them away from you.
NOT OKAY and possible trigger.

"Rape" on the other hand has different meanings, but it is rarely used for anything but describing the act of sexually assaulting another human being.

The widespread use and the different meanings of words like "kill" and "beat" make the difference.

 

[CosmicCommander]

No of course it isn't the call of the speaker. Words have meanings, I can't start calling my keyboard a felgercarb, because nobody can understand me. You can't decide that "******" or "******" are just suddenly non-insulting because you choose them to be that way. There are efforts to reclaim those words, but by the groups they refer to

How did words come about? Did the dictionary suddenly appear and speak to the people of the world telling them the immortal definitions of all things? Words evolve naturally; you wouldn't call your keyboard a felgercarb, but people can choose to change the definitions of words and use them as they like -- and if that takes on, that's how language evolves.

Whether the word could be considered offensive or not, our tongues are in a constant state of evolution. Words change over time; words we use commonly today had a completely different meaning many years ago. Words change; in the end, they are abstract concepts that we use to tie meaning to; and new words emerge, old ones die, and existing ones change because people or groups of people change those meanings.

The fact of the matter is is that your average black or homosexual (and I do know many, and I've chatted about this issue with them) don't experience homophobia or racism in an outlandish way where they're labelled "niggers" or "faggots". To them, those words are archaic insults that hold little to no relevance to them. The only people who want to "reclaim the words" (as though a series of sounds made by moving one's tongue and pushing air in a certain way can be patented) are either self-loathing pseudo-intellectuals who want to try to put themselves up for a cause, or the exceptionally histrionic of said groups.

Or Big Brother.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

My drama lecturer from undergrad told us a story about when she staged a play in the UK several years ago. There was a scene involved where a shot was suddenly fired on stage, simulated by nothing more than a cap gun. Unfortunately for them, of all the people who could have been sitting in the audience that day, there was a group of American exchange students from Columbine High School. As in, students who had been present at that massacre. That shot triggered a PTSD breakdown for them, and that is why all plays we did had to have warnings beforehand if there was simulated gunfire on stage.

What's the point of this anecdote? It's all about context. You may say rape is 'just a word' and it's hypocritical to pursue words like rape while ignoring the casual use of other forms of violent speech. The difference is in the disclosure. No one goes into an online computer game expecting a violence free experience unless they're playing a Hello Kitty MMO. That's why you don't see Gulf War syndrome victims complaining about being told they'll get 'fragged' while playing Gears of War. However, plenty of people have a fair right to expect that they're not going to be subjected to the language of sexual violence while they're just playing a computer game to relax. The potential is just as likely for a scenario not unlike the one described above to play out.

It's fairly well known that Xbox live is full of foul mouth people on it. That hasn't been a secret or unknown to anybody remotely familiar with video games.

It's not even a matter of censorship, merely civility. If you were playing football against someone and you taunted another player that you just 'raped them' when you scored, you'd be kicked off the field and, depending upon the code, subject to disciplinary action. Why should it be any different in online gaming?

Because video games are not real life? You can't mute somebody in real life but you can in a video game.

Why do you need to use the word 'rape' at all when you could just say you 'owned' them and convey the same semantic understanding?

Because your trying to use a hyperbole to convey that you won something.

Or is it really important for you that the sexual part of the analogy is preserved? Because if that's the case, then there's something downright creepy about it.

I've never heard it used in the sexual way online.

 

[darji]

As a member of this community I demand that you do.

I'm sorry but who the hell are you to demand anything of anyone?

Someone who is willing to stand up for the values he wants to see in the community he participates in. If you are a bigot, or a racist, or a sexist; if you use language that offends and hurts people, if you belittle others and make this a community that is toxic to certain individuals for the pure purpose of elevating yourself, I will oppose you.

I take responsibility for my community. In the 'real' world, out in the streets, I demand that you do not kill me, or hit me, or steal from me. I also demand that you do not do these things to other people; we all have the right to make these demands of each other. They are not polite requests. They are outright declarations. Thou shalt not.

In the gaming community that I participate in, thou shalt not use language that hurts other people and display callous disregard for their feelings. I make that demand as someone who is willing to call you or anyone else out for such things. I am not in the business of squirming in my place and wringing my hands and saying 'oh, please, guys, can we not, please, just stop, maybe?' No. I am willing and eager to take a stand, draw a line on the ground and say 'No. This will not be tolerated.'

Everyone should make those demands. Everyone should take a personal responsibility for the community they participate in, because we all have equal stake. You ask 'who am I' as if there was someone I could be that I'm not; you and I are equals, and I make the demand of you, one equal to the next.

This only works if people have similar notions about what is immoral, which they don't. For instance you equate disregard for feelings as equivalent to theft or murder which would be controversial to say the least.

No. Rape in the gaming community means not that its a sexual assault. IT was like that for years. Why do people need to change because one or two people in the whole thing can get hurt by such a trashtalk.

Again playing with a rape victim is not a common thing. The odds that this will happen are very very low. People are getting hurt and offended by almost everything these days. You can not say that one thing in this case the word rape is bad while other words are fine only because you think they are.

If you are scared of getting in such a trashtalk dont use voicechat with strangers. Only talk when you play with friends. Do you even know how many offensive terms and swears you hear in public matches? Just mute or block the guy if it happens and its done. Maybe even try to report this guy if you are really offended by this but than just move on.

 

[wizzy555]

While not abused, my girlfriend had a form of magical thinking OCD, which meant that certain words would trigger panic, the words were "god, satan, hitler, trouble". Try having conversations without using the word "trouble". Fortunately, she received therapy and is much better now.

A word on moral reasoning. It's not simply sufficient to find a difference between two things, point to this and say "see it's different". It must be different in a way that is applicable to an accepted moral principle.

 

[anthony87]

As a member of this community I demand that you do.

I'm sorry but who the hell are you to demand anything of anyone?

Someone who is willing to stand up for the values he wants to see in the community he participates in. If you are a bigot, or a racist, or a sexist; if you use language that offends and hurts people, if you belittle others and make this a community that is toxic to certain individuals for the pure purpose of elevating yourself, I will oppose you.

I take responsibility for my community. In the 'real' world, out in the streets, I demand that you do not kill me, or hit me, or steal from me. I also demand that you do not do these things to other people; we all have the right to make these demands of each other. They are not polite requests. They are outright declarations. Thou shalt not.

In the gaming community that I participate in, thou shalt not use language that hurts other people and display callous disregard for their feelings. I make that demand as someone who is willing to call you or anyone else out for such things. I am not in the business of squirming in my place and wringing my hands and saying 'oh, please, guys, can we not, please, just stop, maybe?' No. I am willing and eager to take a stand, draw a line on the ground and say 'No. This will not be tolerated.'

Everyone should make those demands. Everyone should take a personal responsibility for the community they participate in, because we all have equal stake. You ask 'who am I' as if there was someone I could be that I'm not; you and I are equals, and I make the demand of you, one equal to the next.

Yeah.....no. I shalt use whatever the hell language I like. I'm not gonna restrain myself on the off chance that somebody, somewhere might get offended but at the same time I'm not trying to cause offense. The idea of pissing someone off is so far in the back of my mind that it doesn't even occur to me. If they do get offended by something I say and let me know that I've offended them then I'll apologise and refrain from using that particular phrase for as long as they're around so as not to cause further offense.

I'm not gonna walk on eggshells all my life for people or issues that I'm not aware exist and I certainly wouldn't ask anyone else to do the same for me.

You're aware that something like 1 in 5 women are the targets of sexual abuse in their lifetimes [http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html], right? If you weren't before, you are now. So 'walking on eggshells' becomes very relevant where one in every fifth step is going to be treading on an eggshell, except in this case the eggshells are people, and you have the tower not to crush them, and you can make the adult choice to care, or not care.

And if you don't care, that's your choice. Just as it is my choice to work tirelessly to make this community one that has no room for careless people who give no thoughts to the sensibilities of others. And then your choice won't be just to be careless about people's feelings or not. Then it will be whether or not you'd like to be a social pariah. Up to you which one you'd prefer.

Checking your own language is easy. It's very, very simple to eliminate even one word from your lexicon. The word 'rape' isn't necessary to use in casual gaming parlance. If you are really fighting tooth and nail to hang onto it, it leads me to believe there is something motivating you beyond just the knee-jerk pushback people employ when they're being told that maybe their behavior isn't acceptable. That maybe you're fond of the word in ways that I would find worthy of intellectual investigation.

Oh look, it's that statistic again. Well I know a lot more than 5 women and none of them have ever been sexually abused and if they had been then I simply wouldn't bring it up around them.

You seem to think I don't care. That's wrong. I care as long as I know there's something to care about....well, as much as I can care about random names on the internet anyway. I'm not fighting tooth and nail to hang onto the word "rape", I just strongly disagree with expecting people to make a consensus for the minority who have gone through something horrible while being unaware that said minority even exists.

 

[medv4380]

I agree with a lot you have to say. However, you should realize that the people who are using the word rape in the context that you are offended are not abusing that word.

One valid definition of the word Rape is - The wanton destruction or spoiling of a place or area

If you take that definition of the word away then I really have no way of describing some of the horrors of war.

The word Rape is not always a sexual one.

If I said
I want to go down to the store and get some Rape for dinner.
What would you think? In that context I would be referring to a type of plant. Would you be offended? or how about
Go throw those Rapes away.

I understand where you are coming from, but I cannot condone the rampant offense you're taking by the proper use of a word.

It's like all the Homosexuals getting offended at the use of the word Gay. Gay has not always meant homosexual. In fact my mothers middle name is Gay and her parents meant it in the Care Free Context. Homosexuals just ended up adopting it because some prominent homosexuals where Gay in the literal sense - Foolish Stupid, Bightly Colored showy, or Care Free. Now when people use the word correctly to imply that something is a bit silly Homosexuals get offended when the other person is using the word correctly. They really should be offended at the reasons homosexuals are called Gay, and not be upset at things that are Gay being labeled as such.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the grounds that the author of the article is telling you otherwise. So your assertion is challenged even before I can get to it. It's not a question of whether or not you should respect that request; there's no question of that at all. As a member of this community I demand that you do.

As I've covered before, words like 'kill' and 'beat' are more general than rape. Kill is a multi-purpose word and has been for years. The same thing with 'beat'. Now, if you said "I'm going to beat you like I came home drunk from a bad day at work", that's a reference to a very specific sort of trauma and yes, I would say that its insensitive and shouldn't be said in mixed company, if at all.

The word 'rape' refers to a very specific trauma, and one that tends to cripple people in extreme ways. I am not a victim of rape, nor domestic abuse of any kind, so I cannot comment on which is 'worse'... I don't think such a thing can be quantified. I will say that speaking generally about killing and beating is less likely to trigger than the word 'rape'.

If you're still shaky on the concept of trigger language, I suggest to take some time to read up on it. There are a plethora of blogs about the subject. I would suggest Shakesville, though you really should start a thread maybe asking for some references; I'm sure there are some better read than I who could help you.

Honestly you come off as a little self-righteous.

First of all, you don't get to make demands.

Secondly, who are you to make the call on which "trigger words" are more "specific" or "common" (i.e. more important)? What is it about "rape" that makes it top your list, as opposed to "torture", "murder", "castrate"? "Kill" is not specific? I think it is pretty obvious what "kill" refers to. (Hint: Killing)

The word "beat" is another good example. You think "beating somebody" always had the double meaning of physical violence and figuratively beating somebody in a competitive scenario? Or is not more likely that the term used to be limited to the meaning of literally beating somebody until it became slang and was used more figuratively? You know, kind of the transformation that "rape" is going through right now.

Look, if you want to spend your life walkling on eggshells and apologizing for every minor offense you cause through the use of everyday vocabulary (and slang in the making) then be my guest. But to hold other people to that same standard or else consider them insensitive and unwelcome just makes you a prick in my book. There's a slight difference between pissing somebody off on purpose and not and if you can't tell that difference you're socially inept.

Personally, my use of the word will not change. Simply because it always starts with "this one word that you don't need." In fact right now there seem to be a lot of "one words that you don't need." I'm pretty sure "rape" isn't the first "R-Word" either.

It's funny that the argument "Rape victims don't like hearing the word rape used jovially" to me sounds much like "Black people don't like it when white people toss the word n*gger around to describe them". Defending it with, 'it's their fault for getting offended' is something I haven't heard in a while, usually you get an apology rather than blamed.

Words can change meanings, yeah. The word rape didn't originally mean grievous sexual assault. It does AT THE MOMENT and the only reason you'd use it is to evoke that feeling of helplessness. SO, you aren't pissing someone off unintentionally, you're attempting to evoke that response in people. And for people who have been raped it evokes a lot of negative emotions as detailed above.

Speaking of socially inept, do you not think using a word people say is inflammatory and insisting you can say it anyway isn't just slightly socially retarded? Hey, worked in another R-word. S'all good though, it's your fault for being bothered by it. There is a distinct difference between walking on eggshells and NOT saying things that will only hurt people. Avoiding the word abortion is walking on egg-shells. Avoiding the word 'N*gger' when your white is being a human being.

Incidentally, you've firmly earned a spot of being a prick in my book with that. I suspect you have in Sheppy's too. Good first post.

EDIT: Shit, I played the race-card again, need to stop doing that.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I suppose I gain the ability to freely express myself regardless of how other people might feel about it.

I'm sorry, but if you need to use the word rape to express yourself you have some serious problems.

I'm sorry but if you think you have the right to tell me what to do, you have some serious problems.

Why does this topic, specifically, make you so defensive?

I have a strong dislike when another person[footnote]who has not been given the right of authority[/footnote] presents themselves as having the right to tell me what I can and cannot do, case in point look at the post that itsthesheppy makes.

 

[Shjade]

Right, except that you noted the reason you care about that right to express yourself is that it's how you have fun; if you couldn't express yourself, you wouldn't have as much fun. That is an appeal to emotion.

Its not appeal to emotion when I said that the issue was about censorship and not having fun.

And yet it is when your stated issue with censorship is that it infringes upon your fun.

If you can't understand even that simple idea it's not surprising you can't grasp the larger issues being discussed here. I see little point in continuing to try dumbing it down for you; good luck to anyone else willing to try, but it's a waste of time with this one. May as well move on.

 

[snappydog]

While I suspect that the other 11 pages of this topic are filled with exactly the same sentiments, I feel I must express anyway that that was one of the best articles I've read on anything in a long time. Not because I enjoyed it, but... it might genuinely change the behaviour of some who might not have realised the hurt they could cause (myself, I HOPE, not included, but if I ever do feel the urge to use that word as slang, I certainly will be thinking about it rather more than I had before). So thank you for that.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Sorry, ran out of sentence parts there were just so many that applied .

Cute but I didn't move the goal post, I said that if a person is going to discourage the use of words like "murder" or "starving", then I don't have any issue with them.

Although, while we're on the subject, an appeal to emotion doesn't particularly apply here, it's more an appeal to empathy, your entire position is founded on not giving a shit about other people I'm trying to say to consider the opponent's view-point.

Empathy is an emotional response.
I've been reading the counter-views and I disagree with them.

Incidentally, if you were to read just a feeew words after point 2 on the murdered response it mentions what I'd do if they were a survivor of an attempted murder

Then you and I have no issues about your censorship stance.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

And yet it is when your stated issue with censorship is that it infringes upon your fun.

No, it infringes on my right to express myself.

If you can't understand even that simple idea it's not surprising you can't grasp the larger issues being discussed here.

I understand, but I just disagree.

 

[CaptainKarma]

And yet it is when your stated issue with censorship is that it infringes upon your fun.

No, it infringes on my right to express myself.

If you can't understand even that simple idea it's not surprising you can't grasp the larger issues being discussed here.

I understand, but I just disagree.

Nobody is taking away that right! Its just that using that right, IN THIS WAY, is a douchebag thing to do. Stop whining about censorship.

I agree with a lot you have to say. However, you should realize that the people who are using the word rape in the context that you are offended are not abusing that word.

One valid definition of the word Rape is - The wanton destruction or spoiling of a place or area

If you take that definition of the word away then I really have no way of describing some of the horrors of war.

The word Rape is not always a sexual one.

If I said
I want to go down to the store and get some Rape for dinner.
What would you think? In that context I would be referring to a type of plant. Would you be offended? or how about
Go throw those Rapes away.

I have seen people use this argument to justify shouting "niggardly niggardly" at black people. Yes rape has multiple meanings. But you intending to use only one (and like FUCK people are referring to plundering when they say they raped someone at CoD) doesn't remove the association with the other.

 

[riles481]

And yet it is when your stated issue with censorship is that it infringes upon your fun.

No, it infringes on my right to express myself.

If you can't understand even that simple idea it's not surprising you can't grasp the larger issues being discussed here.

I understand, but I just disagree.

Congratulations you've spent the better part of two days saying you have the right to say rape whenever you want in whatever context you want, meanwhile completely missing the emotional impact or the pain contained in the article in an effort to air your own grievances about you being "censored" and simultaneously trivializing rape, murder, genocide, and whatever else the hell you don't seem to care about.

This thread isn't about you or your right to talk like a butt-hurt asshole about people who don't agree with you, and for the record I find casual use of the word genocide as offensive as rape, to not do so is to not fully come to grips with the full implications of either word.

But by all means, exercise you're right to speech, no one here is going to stop you from making a scene like some self-entitled asshole.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Nobody is taking away that right! Its just that using that right, IN THIS WAY, is a douchebag thing to do.

As long as your not trying to make me abide by your rules, then that's fine that you don't agree with me.

 

[CaptainKarma]

Nobody is taking away that right! Its just that using that right, IN THIS WAY, is a douchebag thing to do.

As long as your not trying to make me abide by your rules, then that's fine that you don't agree with me.

They are not rules dammit. They are suggestions on how to be a decent human being. Have you actually given any reasons why using "rape" is okay other than "neener neener you can't make me"?

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

My drama lecturer from undergrad told us a story about when she staged a play in the UK several years ago. There was a scene involved where a shot was suddenly fired on stage, simulated by nothing more than a cap gun. Unfortunately for them, of all the people who could have been sitting in the audience that day, there was a group of American exchange students from Columbine High School. As in, students who had been present at that massacre. That shot triggered a PTSD breakdown for them, and that is why all plays we did had to have warnings beforehand if there was simulated gunfire on stage.

What's the point of this anecdote? It's all about context. You may say rape is 'just a word' and it's hypocritical to pursue words like rape while ignoring the casual use of other forms of violent speech. The difference is in the disclosure. No one goes into an online computer game expecting a violence free experience unless they're playing a Hello Kitty MMO. That's why you don't see Gulf War syndrome victims complaining about being told they'll get 'fragged' while playing Gears of War. However, plenty of people have a fair right to expect that they're not going to be subjected to the language of sexual violence while they're just playing a computer game to relax. The potential is just as likely for a scenario not unlike the one described above to play out.

It's fairly well known that Xbox live is full of foul mouth people on it. That hasn't been a secret or unknown to anybody remotely familiar with video games.

Foul mouthed is one thing. Casually slinging around the language of sexual violence is another.

It's not even a matter of censorship, merely civility. If you were playing football against someone and you taunted another player that you just 'raped them' when you scored, you'd be kicked off the field and, depending upon the code, subject to disciplinary action. Why should it be any different in online gaming?

Because video games are not real life? You can't mute somebody in real life but you can in a video game.

Video games are not real life: communication in them is however real life. Just because there's a mute button doesn't automatically free you of any responsibility to be considerate in how you address others.

Why do you need to use the word 'rape' at all when you could just say you 'owned' them and convey the same semantic understanding?

Because your trying to use a hyperbole to convey that you won something.

So you think upholding the right of people to talk in degrading hyperbole to make sure everyone fully understands just how much they won is the most important thing here. Well, that clears that up then.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Congratulations you've spent the better part of two days saying you have the right to say rape whenever you want in whatever context you want, meanwhile completely missing the emotional impact or the pain contained in the article in an effort to air your own grievances about you being "censored" and simultaneously trivializing rape, murder, genocide, and whatever else the hell you don't seem to care about.

This thread isn't about you or your right to talk like a butt-hurt asshole about people who don't agree with you, and for the record I find casual use of the word genocide as offensive as rape, to not do so is to not fully come to grips with the full implications of either word.

Call names all you want, I have my rights.

Also good that you feel the same way about murder and genocide as you do about rape.

 

[repeating integers]

Congratulations you've spent the better part of two days saying you have the right to say rape whenever you want in whatever context you want, meanwhile completely missing the emotional impact or the pain contained in the article in an effort to air your own grievances about you being "censored" and simultaneously trivializing rape, murder, genocide, and whatever else the hell you don't seem to care about.

This thread isn't about you or your right to talk like a butt-hurt asshole about people who don't agree with you, and for the record I find casual use of the word genocide as offensive as rape, to not do so is to not fully come to grips with the full implications of either word.

Call names all you want, I have my rights.

This is true, but you also have responsibilities.