The R Word

[TerribleAssassin]

I'm stumbled for words. This was far too emotional for me to say anything to, so I'll say what everyone thinks:

Thank you for sharing, we have major admiration for your courage and we pray (even though quite a few of us aren't religious) that you find the strength to overcome your hardship.

 

[repeating integers]

This is true, but you also have responsibilities.

What responsibilities?

It varies depending on the context, but in this instance, I'd say that if anyone came and said they were hurt by your use of the term "rape" (or any other such word that you brought up) then you would have a responsibility to stop on their behalf. This is admittedly a subjective thing, like all morals, but I believe that your right to free speech ends when it begins to cause another person genuine distress.

As it happens, if somebody did request that you stop using terms like "rape" or "genocide" in a multiplayer game (assuming you had used them) what would you do?

 

[Allar]

Thank you, Anonymous, for this. I can't imagine the strain it took to write it. It was brave, in so many ways, to do so. To bear the weight of others, in effect. So thank you. Also, the writing was astounding.

As for the rest of the thread, I've got a question: what's wrong with being considerate? Why do we have to lash out at someone who's just asking for consideration? He's not trying to censor you, limit your life, shut you down, or insist that you adhere to the internet's version of the "feminist agenda" (which I honestly can't even begin to understand). He's shared something powerful and asked that you think on it, is all.

The writer's just asking you to not be a dick to others if you know how to avoid it. I'm sure you can manage that.

This. Why is it difficult to be kind or at least inoffensive? It's always mind-boggling to me when people think that just because they have a right to do something that automatically makes it a good idea. Sure you're free to say horrible things to other people over the internet but why? Just because you're allowed to be a dick doesn't mean you should exercise that right, especially in such a hurtful manner.

 

[JaredXE]

This thread isn't about you or your right to talk like a butt-hurt asshole about people who don't agree with you

Please be careful with what you say, there may be a a rape victim that reads those hurtful words. You need to always be watchful with what you say, no need to upset anyone with your opinions and random selection of sounds exiting from your mouth.

 

[Therumancer]

Your taking a shotgun to the subject in hopes of hitting something. I'll start out in being blunt in saying (as I've said before) that I myself was raped by a gay man when I was six. In my cause though I blocked it out, which doesn't make it any easier when you know it happened.

Your name is familiar; I've seen you do alot of arguing typically against gay rights in many different threads. Seeing your name in a gay thread usually just pissed me off to the point of simply not reading your posts anymore but now I'm just expressing genuine curiosity. I just spent the past couple of hours debating if I should even bring this up but I just have to know: how do you know the man who raped you was a gay man? I mean was he someone you knew or was it something you found out later? Because reading that statement by itself and knowing your post history, I can't help but feel you might be projecting your feelings on pedophiles, rape and your personal experience onto homosexuals.

I don't paticularly want to de-rail this thread, but I'll say this much:

The gist of what your saying is pretty much loaded. The basic idea being that if someone like me has been victimized, we're effectively too biased to take a rational stance on the subject. If we haven't been victimized we're ignorant and "how could we know" based simply on rhetoric.

I will say this much. What happened to me has lead to me putting a lot of effort into learning about the subject, the gay community, and how things actually are. I know more about homosexuals, the gay rights movement, and the gay community, culture, and subcultures than most gay people within that culture do. It's kind of funny but in the past I've shocked people with some of the things I know, due to the assumption that someone who wasn't gay couldn't possibly know those things the way I did (and no, I won't go into details here). You'd be surprised at what you can do when properly motivated.

A point many people who argue gay rights with me miss is that I'm not talking bunk when I say that my position on the subject has waffled over the years before settling on my current point of view. Something based on what information I've had, and looking at the big picture, as well as the people I've known. It shocks some people think that I might have actually supported the rights of gay men at one time, and that I have to be lying about it, but it happens to be true. When I was in college I probably sat in on more ABIGAYLES meetings than most gay people did. My interests also caused me to look into certain trends and patterns of behavior more closely than most people have done when given a brief.

Despite what people might want to think, the reason why an arguement with me on this subject can't be "won" is because I happen to be right. They miss the point that I was sitting where a lot of the people argueing with me are decades ago, and I know what they think they know, and also realize that if they ever really looked into the subject with any kind of actual interest and effort, they would become me. Hence the constant prodding for people to do their own research, and do their own digging and such. It's the kind of situation where someone can't just tell you the truth, it has to be gained from experience. Of course it takes a decent amount of effort and without a motivating force like mine a lot of people are just going to take things at face value, and let's face it, tolerance is the easier path since it doesn't involve actually having to do anything, especially nowadays when there is already inertia for it.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

So now that nobody is gonna force you to stop using rape, do you think maybe you'll stop it?

No. I never actually used the word that much to begin with, but I'm going to reserve my right to express myself.

Stop being so childish.

Stop trying to tell me or "suggesting" how I should behave.

Congratulations you've spent the better part of two days saying you have the right to say rape whenever you want in whatever context you want, meanwhile completely missing the emotional impact or the pain contained in the article in an effort to air your own grievances about you being "censored" and simultaneously trivializing rape, murder, genocide, and whatever else the hell you don't seem to care about.

This thread isn't about you or your right to talk like a butt-hurt asshole about people who don't agree with you, and for the record I find casual use of the word genocide as offensive as rape, to not do so is to not fully come to grips with the full implications of either word.

Call names all you want, I have my rights.

Also good that you feel the same way about murder and genocide as you do about rape.

This thread isn't about you
This thread isn't about you
This thread isn't about you

When I'm being told how to behave it becomes about me.

This is true, but you also have responsibilities.

What responsibilities?

It varies depending on the context, but in this instance, I'd say that if anyone came and said they were hurt by your use of the term "rape" (or any other such word that you brought up) then you would have a responsibility to stop on their behalf. This is admittedly a subjective thing, like all morals, but I believe that your right to free speech ends when it begins to cause another person genuine distress.

I would disagree that I don't have the responsibility to make sure I don't offend somebody.

 

[Comando96]

You are a very brave person to even type that down.
Doing this is a sacrafice you have made, so that you can enlighten other people... speak for those who lose their voice. I had a tear in my eye frankly.

I am one of these people who... just has one of those faces... the face that everyone feels they can tell their deepest darkest problems and... hearing the life shattering experiances of other people, probably hasn't helped my depression.

One person I know was abused... when she was 6... the age the guy who did it means he's likely dead now... burning somewhere.

I never use the word rape innapropriately and I have a severe distaste for those who do...

 

[medv4380]

I have seen people use this argument to justify shouting "*** ***" at black people. Yes rape has multiple meanings. But you intending to use only one (and like *** people are referring to plundering when they say they raped someone at CoD) doesn't remove the association with the other.

You should look up what a false analogy is.
Your example is one where the context is clearly racist, and the subject at had is whether it is correct to use the word Rape to describe utter devastation which is a valid use of the word. Why do you think that word got pinned to that act in the first place?

Interesting how you actually glossed over my example in my original post. Are you afraid of actual intellectual debate?

The point is words carry multiple meanings. You cannot always separate them out. Quibbling over the dictionary is pointless as it ignores the effect the words have.

So my mother should change her name so she doesn't offend homosexuals?

We should censor Huck Fin because it uses the N-word in a racist context, and thus remove the intent to call out racism that the book was intended to convey?

Words have meanings and removing those meaning to make it so people can justify their offense I cannot condone.

 

[WaysideMaze]

Sorry, ran out of sentence parts there were just so many that applied .

Cute but I didn't move the goal post, I said that if a person is going to discourage the use of words like "murder" or "starving", then I don't have any issue with them.

Lets count the number of fallacies CaptainMarvelous pointed out shall we.

One [http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white]
Two [http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division]
Three [http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon]
Four [http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof]
Five [http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading]
Six [http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity]
Seven [http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque]

Seven fallacies.

And you addressed just 1 of them.

I've noticed that a lot in this thread, you just seem to pick which parts of a post you feel like addressing, whilst completely ignoring the rest.

 

[Nitram]

This. Why is it difficult to be kind or at least inoffensive? It's always mind-boggling to me when people think that just because they have a right to do something that automatically makes it a good idea. Sure you're free to say horrible things to other people over the internet but why? Just because you're allowed to be a dick doesn't mean you should exercise that right, especially in such a hurtful manner.

I think the whiny, self righteous behaviour of some people whose requests for people to avoid that sort of language can read more like demands aren't helping. I've never used the word rape in that way, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't listen to someone who calls people childish apparently for just disagreeing with them.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I've noticed that a lot in this thread, you just seem to pick which parts of a post you feel like addressing, whilst completely ignoring the rest.

I disagree with all the things that he pointed out.

 

[him over there]

That was impressive, especially regarding the circumstances of this article. What are my thoughts on it?

Obviously people who have suffered trauma will have triggers, however I don't think it is ultimately up to the majority to help eliminate them for the victim rather then it is up to the victim to develop the ability to cope.

Do I think that makes it okay for little shits to run around yelling "lol get raped dood" on the psn? no. Do I think that it's unfortunate that this happens? yes. Do I think that some consideration and thought would be nice? of course. I just don't think it's our responsibility to accommodate victims of trauma, especially since being a decent human being accomplishes that already.

 

[CaptainKarma]

This. Why is it difficult to be kind or at least inoffensive? It's always mind-boggling to me when people think that just because they have a right to do something that automatically makes it a good idea. Sure you're free to say horrible things to other people over the internet but why? Just because you're allowed to be a dick doesn't mean you should exercise that right, especially in such a hurtful manner.

I think the whiny, self righteous behaviour of some people whose requests for people to avoid that sort of language can read more like demands aren't helping. I've never used the word rape in that way, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't listen to someone who calls people childish apparently for just disagreeing with them.

I called him childish for giving no argument other than "you can't stop me, so i'm gonna keep doing it"

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

This. Why is it difficult to be kind or at least inoffensive? It's always mind-boggling to me when people think that just because they have a right to do something that automatically makes it a good idea. Sure you're free to say horrible things to other people over the internet but why? Just because you're allowed to be a dick doesn't mean you should exercise that right, especially in such a hurtful manner.

I think the whiny, self righteous behaviour of some people whose requests for people to avoid that sort of language can read more like demands aren't helping. I've never used the word rape in that way, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't listen to someone who calls people childish apparently for just disagreeing with them.

I called him childish for giving no argument other than "you can't stop me, so i'm gonna keep doing it"

And I said that you can call names all you want, but you don't have the right to censor me.

 

[Allar]

I think the whiny, self righteous behaviour of some people whose requests for people to avoid that sort of language can read more like demands aren't helping. I've never used the word rape in that way, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't listen to someone who calls people childish apparently for just disagreeing with them.

Whilst I understand where you're coming from I think there's something to be said for having some empathy and trying to understand why people would react so strongly to this topic. I can appreciate why it would be offensive to somebody who didn't mean to be hurtful being called out for being a terrible person but there's a reason why this is such a charged issue. In the eyes of the speaker it's not a simple argument like preference for one type of media over the other, in the eyes of the speaker the consequence of disagreement is the very real emotional suffering of victims. Not only does disagreement result in suffering for the victims in question but it's suffering that occurs for what is perceived to be no good reason, it's not as though somebody's rights are being violated when you're told that you shouldn't be using the word rape in a trash-talking context. It's seen as a choice between protecting the feelings of others through minimal action or causing emotional suffering to those same people for the sake of being able to make use of one unnecessary word.

I think that in large part people have gotten to the point where they're pissed off and making demands because of how nonchalant others tend to be about an issue that's very hurtful and real for a significant number of people. The anger and demands are only arising because of the perception that an issue which is very serious for the people in question has been trivialized and mocked. The nature of the offense also makes it difficult for many people, myself included, to see how such a thing could be poked fun at without completely disrespecting the horror of the act and the feelings of the victim in question.

The indifference to an act that is so widespread is another cause of consternation I think. This is a particularly charged issue and tends to blow up like it does because there's a perception that despite how widespread a crime it is people still aren't taking it seriously. I'm sure you've seen discussions on these forums in the past about the subject of rape or women's rights, if not then I encourage you to take a look back and see for yourself. Frequently it goes well beyond simple disagreement into victim blaming and insensitivity that I hope would make most people cringe.

It is of course your right to disagree, we are on a forum after all, but while I think it's always preferable to be level headed and civil in your discourse I think it's easy to see why outbursts or indignation would arise in this context.

 

[CaptainKarma]

This. Why is it difficult to be kind or at least inoffensive? It's always mind-boggling to me when people think that just because they have a right to do something that automatically makes it a good idea. Sure you're free to say horrible things to other people over the internet but why? Just because you're allowed to be a dick doesn't mean you should exercise that right, especially in such a hurtful manner.

I think the whiny, self righteous behaviour of some people whose requests for people to avoid that sort of language can read more like demands aren't helping. I've never used the word rape in that way, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't listen to someone who calls people childish apparently for just disagreeing with them.

I called him childish for giving no argument other than "you can't stop me, so i'm gonna keep doing it"

And I said that you can call names all you want, but you don't have the right to censor me.

I am not fucking censoring you. I am asking you to think about the ramifications of using rape casually, and saying that it is an insensitive and cruel thing to do. This is not censorship! It is not even close.

Given everything this thread has said about the damage and distress I'm asking you this: Why SHOULDN'T you stop using it? You, personally, no censorship or anything. Why shouldn't you decide to, of your own volition, stop using that word.

 

[Entenzahn]

Words can change meanings, yeah. The word rape didn't originally mean grievous sexual assault. It does AT THE MOMENT and the only reason you'd use it is to evoke that feeling of helplessness. SO, you aren't pissing someone off unintentionally, you're attempting to evoke that response in people. And for people who have been raped it evokes a lot of negative emotions as detailed above.

Yes, words change meaning, that's my point. Beating used to mean "Physically hitting", now it also means "defeating". Rape at the moment means "sexual assault" but it seems to be in the process of acquiring the additional meaning of domination in a broader and more figurative sense that is also applied to a competitive scenario. If you believe that every person who currently uses the term does so with a sexual context in mind I think you'd be wrong.

Speaking of socially inept, do you not think using a word people say is inflammatory and insisting you can say it anyway isn't just slightly socially retarded?

Not really. Everybody has their own subjective set of naughty words, no-gos, trigger scenarios and hot-button issues. One can say, not say or ignore whatever they want, but IMO what makes someone socially retarded is (amongst others) to act like everybody else has to follow their personal ruleset or be, well, socially retarded. One of the first things you will learn when you grow up is that other people have their own morals and world views and not everything you believe to be right or wrong may be just that. For example, I disagree with the notion that people can't be human beings for not keeping to your proposed use of vocabulary.

I once got asked by somebody to stop using the word "fan" because he found it offensive. "Fan". How about no.

Incidentally, you've firmly earned a spot of being a prick in my book with that. I suspect you have in Sheppy's too. Good first post.

A random person on the internet doesn't like that I disagree with them.

 

[Zerstiren]

From the article:

"I've seen a lot of comments on these articles suggesting that blowback about rape is part of some sort of "feminist agenda." This bothered me for a number of reasons, the first being that I think the 'feminist agenda' can be summed up by the phrase 'we would really like it if you treated us like people.'"

Who is being demanded to show respect? Anonymous players? Why should we care about the BS some adult-kiddies say around us, when we can form groups of online friends and just play with them? How would moderating what players spit into their microphone change how they think, while they play horrendously violent and graphic games, i.e. Black Ops or Gears of War? It doesn't make any sense to try and make one aspect of videogaming clean, while we enjoy all its other dark and vulgar fantasies of killing and maiming people.

We belong to our own social groups in the real world, appropriate venues to find understanding and belonging; I don't see how human nature should be any different online.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I am not fucking censoring you. I am asking you to think about the ramifications of using rape casually, and saying that it is an insensitive and cruel thing to do.

Ok, I have thought about it, and I don't think the ramifications are that great. You objective was to inform me about the ramifications, and I am now informed, are you done? What else do you have to say now that I have been informed.

This is not censorship! It is not even close.

When you cross the line from informing me, to "suggesting" how I should behave you are very close to censorship.

Given everything this thread has said about the damage and distress I'm asking you this: Why SHOULDN'T you stop using it? You, personally, no censorship or anything. Why shouldn't you decide to, of your own volition, stop using that word.

Because I have the right to express myself regardless of who is offended.

You should recognize that a semantic shift is going on with this word.

 

[CaptainKarma]

I am not fucking censoring you. I am asking you to think about the ramifications of using rape casually, and saying that it is an insensitive and cruel thing to do.

Ok, I have thought about it, and I don't think the ramifications are that great. You objective was to inform me about the ramifications, and I am now informed, are you done? What else do you have to say now that I have been informed.

This is not censorship! It is not even close.

When you cross the line from informing me, to "suggesting" how I should behave you are very close to censorship.

Given everything this thread has said about the damage and distress I'm asking you this: Why SHOULDN'T you stop using it? You, personally, no censorship or anything. Why shouldn't you decide to, of your own volition, stop using that word.

Because I have the right to express myself regardless of who is offended.

You should recognize that a semantic shift is going on with this word.

"it would be censorship if I stopped" is bullshit. I'm not gonna force you, I'm just asking you to stop. You have the right to do a lot of things, doesn't mean they're morally acceptable, or even a good idea.