The R Word

[axlryder]

I find it odd how a lot of people don't seem willing to acknowledge that, "hey, maybe colloquially using the words murder and torture (and whatever else) could be a trigger for someone, as they are both vile acts that can permanently fuck a person up on a deep level". I know people use those words often and out of the "proper" context (I see it enough). Yet I see a lot of arguments for rape being the only real no-no word. Why can't people just say, "hey, maybe people we should avoid using those words colloquially too, just for the sake of maybe not offending someone who's had a similarly traumatic experience with murder or torture as a rape victim might have had with rape". Just how I see it. I mean, if people would just agree to that, I think people would see a lot less resistance here, as less people would feel like they're being manipulated by the spooky "feminist agenda" or being arbitrarily limited. Plus, you get the bonus of, I dunno, not emotionally harming people who actually HAVE had traumatic experiences with torture and murder and such.

That point has already been made earlier in this thread. Whats-his-face just refuses to acknowledge it and still uses those words to deflect the issue.

So other people have agreed to not use words like torture and murder out of the proper context or aggressively? I got about 6-7 pages in and hadn't seen that yet. If anything, I just saw resistance to the idea or people arguing "but rape is worse/special" or something. Enough resistance that I think it bears repeating anyhow.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

There are, of course, a number of other reasons why Rape Is A Special Kind Of Evil [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13109563260A17380100&page=0] but this is the one I personally find most convincing.

Speaking as someone who's family survived genocide, I'm gong to have to disagree that rape is something special. It's bad to do, don't get me wrong. However I'm not going to treat it worse than murder.

Why stop at Xbox live? According to your logic, you should just be able to say whatever you what whenever you want to? Why not make rape jokes on social media sites?

Because social media sites might have rules that prevent such things from being expressed? Otherwise, if the social media site doesn't have rules against it, then I would agree that the person can say what they want.

Also I don't think your future boss would be impressed if he or she found out about your massive privilege problem and your desire to hurt other people.

How would they know what I say on Xbox live?

EDIT:axlryder is making a good point.

 

[Taunta]

There are, of course, a number of other reasons why Rape Is A Special Kind Of Evil [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13109563260A17380100&page=0] but this is the one I personally find most convincing.

Speaking as someone who's family survived genocide, I'm gong to have to disagree that rape is something special. It's bad to do, don't get me wrong. However I'm not going to treat it worse than murder.

Why stop at Xbox live? According to your logic, you should just be able to say whatever you what whenever you want to? Why not make rape jokes on social media sites?

Because social media sites might have rules that prevent such things from being expressed? Otherwise, if the social media site doesn't have rules against it, then I would agree that the person can say what they want.

Also I don't think your future boss would be impressed if he or she found out about your massive privilege problem and your desire to hurt other people.

How would they know what I say on Xbox live?

I'm going to assume that you don't know some of the things that community pages post on Facebook. They really don't actually. You'll probably just get reported, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it.

Society has rules too, but you don't seem to care about those. You would think those would be more important than Facebook's rules.


About Axlryder's point: The article is not saying that rape is a special word. That just happens to be the topic of the day, because it's culturally relevant. Just because someone is suggesting that you shouldn't make rape jokes doesn't mean they also imply that it's okay to make other jokes. I don't know where that came from. It's not okay to make inflammatory jokes in public. Period. But the topic of today is rape.

 

[disappointed]

Thank you.

It's all a question of what sort of culture we want. Do we want it to be inclusive? If so then we should keep our behaviour civil and supportive. We are all strangers. It will be hard for us to get along with each other if we don't go out of our way to make it happen. Cheap, hateful, violent language is something we don't need.

Gaming should be better than this. When you're spending millions making a game, you shouldn't introduce an issue you know to be painful for many people without sanity checking your treatment of it with someone who better represents those people's experiences. The trouble is that gaming has made war and murder acceptable topics without ever doing these checks. It's set a poor precedent, a low bar that developers are reluctant to raise. Gaming should have better standards for itself, out of humanity, civility and self-respect.

 

[Imrix]

Yes, but does that mean that we can't use phrases like "I'm starving" or "I'm dying of thirst" because people who were severely neglected as children and nearly died due to hunger or dehydration could hear? Or what about "I felt strangled" or "I was suffocating" because there might be a victim of attempted murder via strangulation in the vicinity? Or "That was torture" because somebody you're talking to was actually tortured?

Again, I rank "I nearly suffered *insert horrible fate here*" as a less traumatising experience than "I actually suffered *insert horrible fate here*"

You can argue that rape is more horrific, has a longer fallout, or is more common, but the degree of the trauma doesn't change the underlying fact that nobody should be responsible for anybody's feelings other than their own.

Well, tough. We are responsible for the effect we have on those around us. Nobody lives in a social vacuum. If your words are hurtful to somebody else, then yes, that is your fault. It may be a minor enough hurt that it is forgivable without acknowledging, or a fair exchange for free speech, but it is still a hurt, and it shouldn't be taken for granted.

Speaking as someone who's family survived genocide, I'm gong to have to disagree that rape is something special. It's bad to do, don't get me wrong. However I'm not going to treat it worse than murder.

Really? I'm so sorry to read that. How recently? I wasn't aware such things had occurred since the Second World War.

 

[Entenzahn]

I disagree, I believe the word has been sanitised so that it isn't as offensive but it's root derivation is still the same. Still, we differ on this and that's not something we can argue. If you want to say it, fine, I don't advocate censorship but I advocate acting like an adult and this is where we seem to be having the issue.

My opinion is that an adult would have better things to do than to judge other people's use of "inappropriate vocabulary". If I feel that somebody is trying to offend me on purpose on the internet I walk away, ignore or mock them.

One person asks you to stop saying Fan, fine, ignore them. If the majority of people ask you to stop saying something, that's being socially conscious. Ignoring the wishes or requests of everyone around you because you feel it doesn't apply to you is what I would define as 'socially retarded' and it's how the argument is coming across.

Rape is, by a general consensus, an issue for a lot of people (certainly I'd guess a majority) so there are a number of people who would rather it not be used casually. In certain social contexts (privellaged people who've never encountered it I guess), it's likely acceptable to discuss it or, hell, probably even crack a joke. But to complete strangers, standard social norms say you don't make a joke out of something which, for them, could well be a traumatic issue. I'm not saying you can't, maybe not even that you shouldn't, but that you should consider the matter before blithely shouting you raped someone at that last match. It's just consideration for other people. It's not someone censoring you, it's being an adult, if your half as grown up as you think you are you'll hopefully see where I'm coming from with this.

See, that's what I take issue with. I brought up "Murder", "Torture" and "Castration". Is there a threshold that determines what makes a (contextually) inappropriate word or topic? When X people say that something is a no-go it counts? Where is that threshold? Is it "common sense"? That would be convenient, since it would imply that anybody who disagrees is an idiot.

I don't respect the numbers argument. IMO an issue isn't automatically more or less important when more or less people are affected by it. Practically speaking I know that there are hot-button issues that you have to be careful about since you run at a higher risk of causing a ruckus. At the same time people have to acknowledge that some words like "rape" and "******" are slowly becoming internet slang and are usually not intended to offend rape victims or homosexuals. Unless you stop this by force (which I would vehemently oppose) you will probably have to learn to deal with it and accept that words constantly change their meanings and usage.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

The article made me think about my own conduct in games for a mo'. I do say "rape" in private conversations(post game) where I know it couldn't possibly be frowned upon, but in public chat I'm as polite as they come...to the point that I get made fun of for it. Good sportsmanship was drummed into me early on.

This and similar recent topics on rape on this forum are proof: you're victims because of rape, while physical violence is just a normal part of life. Your wife and kids were murdered? Tough break champ, as long as its not sexual assault YOU'RE FINE.

Absolutely nobody that I am aware of is suggesting that. In fact in the reply I posted above your post here, I make a point to say that everyone's trigger words are to be respected; however, some words, like 'kill' are so general and multi-purpose in our language that it is less likely to cause severe offense than the much-more-specific word of 'rape'.

I mean if I use the word "We beat them", the word 'beat' is very general. It's less likely to trigger someone, though if it did, I would certainly owe them an apology and be mindful around them in the future. The word 'rape' however is not multi-purpose. It means sexual assault. It's a much more specific word that calls to a specific trauma, and moreover, it's unnecessary to everyday gamer parlance. It can be omitted without losing anything of value, and doing so make the community that little bit safer and more inclusive.

nobody is saying the word should be illegal to use. All that's being said is that using it causes hurt; you're welcome to ignore that hurt, as I am welcome to consider you to be an insensitive person, and I reserve the right to make it clear that insensitive people are not welcome.

So and I am gonna kill you is not as specific as I am gonna rape you? There are more people who saw someone getting killed than someone beeing raped. So why is rape so special? A criminal and violent act is still the same and the victim will again be as much traumatized as someone who was beeing raped.

I'm sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to communicate to me. If English is not your first language, I apologize. But from what it sounds, you are bringing up an objection I've addressed before, and I suggest reading through the thread. This has been covered.

Yeah English is not my native language and I am sorry if you dont get my point.

I am just saying that you can hurt alot more people by saying "I am gonna beat you" than by saying "I am gonna rape you" Tons of people where abused as a kid so that they are now traumtized. why is it ok to say that while the change to hurt someone with "I am gonna Rape you" is much much lower than the "I am gonna kill you" or the I am gonna beat you" talk?

Rape should not be handled as something special. You should openly talk about it, you should be able to show it in any form of media and you should also stirr controversy about this topic so people are getting more aware of this. Trying to keep it a special and very delicate will not help anyone. Not even the victim itself.

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the grounds that the author of the article is telling you otherwise. So your assertion is challenged even before I can get to it. It's not a question of whether or not you should respect that request; there's no question of that at all. As a member of this community I demand that you do.

As I've covered before, words like 'kill' and 'beat' are more general than rape. Kill is a multi-purpose word and has been for years. The same thing with 'beat'. Now, if you said "I'm going to beat you like I came home drunk from a bad day at work", that's a reference to a very specific sort of trauma and yes, I would say that its insensitive and shouldn't be said in mixed company, if at all.

The word 'rape' refers to a very specific trauma, and one that tends to cripple people in extreme ways. I am not a victim of rape, nor domestic abuse of any kind, so I cannot comment on which is 'worse'... I don't think such a thing can be quantified. I will say that speaking generally about killing and beating is less likely to trigger than the word 'rape'.

If you're still shaky on the concept of trigger language, I suggest to take some time to read up on it. There are a plethora of blogs about the subject. I would suggest Shakesville, though you really should start a thread maybe asking for some references; I'm sure there are some better read than I who could help you.

I don't want to get into a snarky back-and-forth with you. But, if those are truly your aims, you could stand to look at your own conduct and approach.

When was the last time someone was condescending to you and won you over? Or made demands and won you over? We're ambassadors for what we say, and if our general disposition is shitty it really shoots a big hole in the feet of our points. It's simply easier to dismiss an argument coming from a source that's conducting itself poorly.

The desired response is "good point", which is hard to achieve if the first thing you're evoking is a "fuck you" in the readers head.

edit - I think I probably quoted the wrong post of yours. Oh well.

 

[macfluffers]

Again, I rank "I nearly suffered *insert horrible fate here*" as a less traumatising experience than "I actually suffered *insert horrible fate here*"

Child abuse, assault, and torture victims do not "nearly" suffer. You just trivialized parental neglect, battery, and torture.

Well, tough. We are responsible for the effect we have on those around us. Nobody lives in a social vacuum. If your words are hurtful to somebody else, then yes, that is your fault. It may be a minor enough hurt that it is forgivable, or not worth acknowledging, or a fair exchange for free speech, but it is still a hurt, and it shouldn't be taken for granted.

Uh...no? We're not responsible for others' emotions at all. True, we do not live in a vacuum, but it takes two to tango. If you're offended or bothered by something, then don't listen or look.

I've been the victim of racist comments and verbal bullying since I was a kid. You know what I do? I ignore it.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I'm going to assume that you don't know some of the things that community pages post on Facebook.

And you would be correct.

They really don't actually. You'll probably just get reported, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it.

ok....

Society has rules too, but you don't seem to care about those. You would think those would be more important than Facebook's rules.

In the proper environment I care, however I don't agree that Xbox is such an environment.

About Axlryder's point: The article is not saying that rape is a special word. That just happens to be the topic of the day, because it's culturally relevant.

The article didn't treat it like a special word, but other people in this thread seem to want to treat it as such. Again I repeat, if it's ok to say that "I just murdered that last match" or "man did you so how many people I shot before I was killed? It was a genocide!", than saying "I just raped that last match" seems perfectly fine to me.

Yes, but does that mean that we can't use phrases like "I'm starving" or "I'm dying of thirst" because people who were severely neglected as children and nearly died due to hunger or dehydration could hear? Or what about "I felt strangled" or "I was suffocating" because there might be a victim of attempted murder via strangulation in the vicinity? Or "That was torture" because somebody you're talking to was actually tortured?

Again, I rank "I nearly suffered *insert horrible fate here*" as a less traumatising experience than "I actually suffered *insert horrible fate here*"

Wait, so I should be sensitive to the feelings of rape victims but I can disregard the feeling of those that have lost family members to gang violence?

What?Really? I'm so sorry to read that. How recently? I wasn't aware such things had occurred since the Second World War.

It was WW2, I'm Jewish and my immediate family were in the concentration camps.

 

[axlryder]

There are, of course, a number of other reasons why Rape Is A Special Kind Of Evil [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13109563260A17380100&page=0] but this is the one I personally find most convincing.

Speaking as someone who's family survived genocide, I'm gong to have to disagree that rape is something special. It's bad to do, don't get me wrong. However I'm not going to treat it worse than murder.

Why stop at Xbox live? According to your logic, you should just be able to say whatever you what whenever you want to? Why not make rape jokes on social media sites?

Because social media sites might have rules that prevent such things from being expressed? Otherwise, if the social media site doesn't have rules against it, then I would agree that the person can say what they want.

Also I don't think your future boss would be impressed if he or she found out about your massive privilege problem and your desire to hurt other people.

How would they know what I say on Xbox live?

I'm going to assume that you don't know some of the things that community pages post on Facebook. They really don't actually. You'll probably just get reported, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it.

Society has rules too, but you don't seem to care about those. You would think those would be more important than Facebook's rules.


About Axlryder's point: The article is not saying that rape is a special word. That just happens to be the topic of the day, because it's culturally relevant. Just because someone is suggesting that you shouldn't make rape jokes doesn't mean they also imply that it's okay to make other jokes. I don't know where that came from. It's not okay to make inflammatory jokes in public. Period. But the topic of today is rape.

it's completely unnecessary to and avoid talking about those "other jokes" and words though. Word usage is key here, since it's the general usage of that word that seems to be a bigger issue. It is relevant, since we're talking about appropriate language. Also, there are some people who seem to be implying that rape is indeed a special word (the validity of such claims being a discussion I don't plan on having). Whether or not that's what the article is saying doesn't matter, because that's what this discussion had evolved into. If someone brings up the (valid) point that, "hey, using these other words isn't great either, but people still do it and don't seem to care" then acknowledging that point and saying "maybe we can do all of these things" will only be productive. Saying "yeah but we're talking about rape" sounds like you're brushing it under the rug or something. If they're still resisting, then obviously one would have to take a different approach or leave it alone. I realize you're not disagreeing, but your tone just threw me a bit.

 

[sindremaster]

I'm sorry, but if you need to use the word rape to express yourself you have some serious problems.

I'm sorry but if you think you have the right to tell me what to do, you have some serious problems.

Please show me where I told you what to do.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I'm sorry, but if you need to use the word rape to express yourself you have some serious problems.

I'm sorry but if you think you have the right to tell me what to do, you have some serious problems.

Please show me where I told you what to do.

It was implied because obviously I don't want to have "serious problems" so my only choice would be to comply with your opinion.

 

[riles481]

There are, of course, a number of other reasons why Rape Is A Special Kind Of Evil [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13109563260A17380100&page=0] but this is the one I personally find most convincing.

Speaking as someone who's family survived genocide, I'm gong to have to disagree that rape is something special. It's bad to do, don't get me wrong. However I'm not going to treat it worse than murder.

Why stop at Xbox live? According to your logic, you should just be able to say whatever you what whenever you want to? Why not make rape jokes on social media sites?

Because social media sites might have rules that prevent such things from being expressed? Otherwise, if the social media site doesn't have rules against it, then I would agree that the person can say what they want.

Also I don't think your future boss would be impressed if he or she found out about your massive privilege problem and your desire to hurt other people.

How would they know what I say on Xbox live?

EDIT:axlryder is making a good point.

Wow, you have now spent nearly two complete days posting about nonsense. No one is or has the power to censor you in this discussion, what we're asking you is to consider what you say before you say it and use common sense.

You have taken all the pain, all the emotions, of the individual who wrote this article, who forced themselves to relive their experience and then lay that experience on the table for hundreds, if not thousands, to read, and then proceeded to openly ridicule it. You have free speech, you have the right to your opinion, but you do not have the right for that opinion to be correct or for your speech to go unchallenged. You can bet on it that I challenge your opinions that words such as "rape" or "genocide" are trivial.

I do not think you are a bad person, but I think you are misleading yourself horribly, victimizing yourself in a thread that is (once again) NOT ABOUT YOU. The amount of mental fortitude and anguish it took to post this article deserves respect and the insights the author is trying to impart deserve consideration. The author did not ask you to stop saying rape, all he asked was to consider the implication of that word and realize that actions have reactions and/or consequences. Meaning that your meaningless fun might be very meaningful (and hurtful) to someone else. After all you do not live in a vacuum, consider those around you, chances are you know a rape victim personally and are complete unaware of that fact.

So please practice some common sense and decency. (or freaking don't, just do it elsewhere)

 

[Imrix]

Child abuse, assault, and torture victims do not "nearly" suffer. You just trivialized parental neglect, battery, and torture.

No, I just rank them as less traumatising than rape, with a possible exception for torture victims depending on the nature and length of torment.

Uh...no? We're not responsible for others' emotions at all. True, we do not live in a vacuum, but it takes two to tango. If you're offended or bothered by something, then don't listen or look.

I've been the victim of racist comments and verbal bullying since I was a kid. You know what I do? I ignore it.

Bullshit. You can ignore something once you realize its nature, but in the connected world we live in, that first point of exposure is all but impossible to avoid. You can ignore it afterwards, minimise successive trauma, but by then damage has been done.

It takes two to tango, but it only takes one to throw a punch.

 

[Imrix]

Wait, so I should be sensitive to the feelings of rape victims but I can disregard the feeling of those that have lost family members to gang violence?

Of course not, that would be a dick move. But then, I wouldn't expect you to offer the same tenderness and sympathy to the friends and family of a rape victim as I would expect you to offer to the victim themselves.

It was WW2, I'm Jewish and my immediate family were in the concentration camps.

In the same vein, I'm not going to offer you the same sympathy I would to somebody who personally suffered such a massive loss. It still counts, it still deserves sympathy, but I think we can agree that the wound is not quite as raw, and requires a little less care.

 

[darji]

Thank you.

It's all a question of what sort of culture we want. Do we want it to be inclusive? If so then we should keep our behaviour civil and supportive. We are all strangers. It will be hard for us to get along with each other if we don't go out of our way to make it happen. Cheap, hateful, violent language is something we don't need.

Gaming should be better than this. When you're spending millions making a game, you shouldn't introduce an issue you know to be painful for many people without sanity checking your treatment of it with someone who better represents those people's experiences. The trouble is that gaming has made war and murder acceptable topics without ever doing these checks. It's set a poor precedent, a low bar that developers are reluctant to raise. Gaming should have better standards for itself, out of humanity, civility and self-respect.

Wrong, For example the call of duty guys do the whole game in respect of these people who had people die in a war. They actually do it and talk about it with people who survived a war or saw people getting killed infront of their own eyes. And these soldier are very grateful that other people can experience what they had to. They are grateful that its not a topic you dont talk about it.

And here in the west such topics like rape when used in games will never be used without showing how cruel this is or without thinking.


Take Japan for example. ITs almost normal to see pornovideos which feature rape. There are tons of games were you rape little girls in trains or school buildings. There are games and movies about rapeclubs and so on. Stuff you will never ever see in western games. Infact people arguing that these kind of openess prevents rape acts. Just look how Japan has not only one of the lowest criminal records but also less rape victims and attempts world wide.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

You have free speech, you have the right to your opinion, but you do not have the right for that opinion to be correct or for your speech to go unchallenged. You can bet on it that I challenge your opinions that words such as "rape" or "genocide" are trivial.

I never said that my opinion can't be challenged, just that I have the right to say what I want on Xbox live.

I do not think you are a bad person, but I think you are misleading yourself horribly, victimizing yourself in a thread that is (once again) NOT ABOUT YOU.

You can keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true.

The amount of mental fortitude and anguish it took to post this article deserves respect and the insights the author is trying to impart deserve consideration. The author did not ask you to stop saying rape, all he asked was to consider the implication of that word and realize that actions have reactions and/or consequences. Meaning that your meaningless fun might be very meaningful (and hurtful) to someone else.

I have considered it, and I don't think saying "rape" is worse than saying "murder".

 

[him over there]

I'm not gonna force you, I'm just asking you to stop. You have the right to do a lot of things, doesn't mean they're morally acceptable, or even a good idea.

Ok, you can ask, but I refuse to stop. Now then, knowing that I refuse, are you going to leave it at that or are you going to try to force me to stop?

As for you comment about morals, morals differ from person to person.

I'm asking why you refuse to stop. You blathered that I couldn't stop you, which is not a reason.

Simple, people hate having their status quote disrupted for the sake of something they can't reasonably relate to. It's a pretty common problem where they feel the need to keep what is already there because changing is admitting you were wrong. It's pride and selfishness.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Of course not, that would be a dick move. But then, I wouldn't expect you to offer the same tenderness and sympathy to the friends and family of a rape victim as I would expect you to offer to the victim themselves.

Why not? Why would I treat their friends and family with less care than the victim? Both are suffering.

In the same vein, I'm not going to offer you the same sympathy I would to somebody who personally suffered such a massive loss. It still counts, it still deserves sympathy, but I think we can agree that the wound is not quite as raw, and requires a little less care.

No we can't agree. If you wouldn't tell my grandmother a holocaust joke, then don't tell me one.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I'm not gonna force you, I'm just asking you to stop. You have the right to do a lot of things, doesn't mean they're morally acceptable, or even a good idea.

Ok, you can ask, but I refuse to stop. Now then, knowing that I refuse, are you going to leave it at that or are you going to try to force me to stop?

As for you comment about morals, morals differ from person to person.

I'm asking why you refuse to stop. You blathered that I couldn't stop you, which is not a reason.

Simple, people hate having their status quote disrupted for the sake of something they can't reasonably relate to. It's a pretty common problem where they feel the need to keep what is already there because changing is admitting you were wrong. It's pride and selfishness.

No, it has to do with the question of why its ok to say "murder", "torture", or "starving", but its not ok to say "rape".