The R Word

itsthesheppy

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Helmholtz Watson said:
itsthesheppy said:
you should have read the entire article. you'd know why, if you had. If you did, you should maybe read it again, because you missed it.
Ok I just read the whole thing and if the point was to discourage people from saying the word rape loosely, I go back to what I said about genocide, murder, starving, and beating. Why are those words ok to say but rape is not?
Because nobody in XBOX Live, or anywhere else, has said 'omg i totally just genocided that guy'. It's extremely rare to hear anyone say 'man we beat them so bad it was like genocide.'

The use of the word 'rape' as a substitute for 'beat' or 'lost' or 'defeated', however, is very common. The author of the article does a much better job explaining why it is hurtful and wrong than I ever could.

This is not to say that using the word 'genocide' or other synonyms are necessairy a great deal better, but you're a lot less likely to trigger somebody within earshot, and contribute to a culture that supports that type of language and those detrimental opinions about the severity of the crime.

If you can't appreciate why it might hurt someone and therefor language to be avoided, you should soul-search about your opinion about the feelings of others.
 

redisforever

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Thank you. Hopefully, people will read this, and think before they shout. I know I don't, not always, but I certainly try to. I know that if I'm in a situation where I may say something stupid, I try to avoid speaking. It usually works.
 

Koshok

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Great article. It really hit a few emotions with me, which is no small feat. I am certain writing this took a lot of will power and courage.
I thank you for writing this. I feel like I understand a little more than I would have otherwise.
 

M0rp43vs

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Jul 4, 2008
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Rednog said:
Not trying to make light of this but I think I'm gonna take a shot as to why you feel that way. It was over quickly. Relatively.

I cannot comment on the situation without knowing it but it was probably "impersonal". Mind you, I study self defense seriously and have a different definition of that word.
Instead of him just stabbing you in the back, imagine him really wanting to cause you pain. Imagine him wanting you to suffer.

Instead of quickly stabbing you for whatever reason, imagine he says, ties you up or drugs you so you are motionless but able to feel pain. Imagine his face twisted, showing that he utterly hates you, despises you. Imagine him taunting you, every word dripping with venom, showing you just how much power he holds over you.
Imagine being so helpless, that no matter how hard you struggle, there is no escape and both you and him know that. Then he brings the knife out. Instead of quickly stabbing you and hoping you die quickly, he draws it out as long as possible, just because he can.
So in essence, imagine instead him torturing you.
Can you imagine it? Honestly, I'd think you'd be lying if you said yes without having it happen to you. No one can unless they've survived it . And honestly, my scenario doesn't take into account the mental pain that rape brings. You are literally losing your innocence.

Sorry if it was a little vivid. I cannot say I've suffered this or anything close to this but like I said, I seriously study martial arts and I've heard MANY first and second hand accounts, factor in my natural empathy and paranoia, that's where I got the scenario.

On the article itself, I have to applaud you. It must have taken lots of willpower.
But captcha has something to say, a sentiment I wish to echo; enjoy life.
I truly hope you can.
 

wizzy555

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itsthesheppy said:
Helmholtz Watson said:
itsthesheppy said:
you should have read the entire article. you'd know why, if you had. If you did, you should maybe read it again, because you missed it.
Ok I just read the whole thing and if the point was to discourage people from saying the word rape loosely, I go back to what I said about genocide, murder, starving, and beating. Why are those words ok to say but rape is not?
Because nobody in XBOX Live, or anywhere else, has said 'omg i totally just genocided that guy'. It's extremely rare to hear anyone say 'man we beat them so bad it was like genocide.'

The use of the word 'rape' as a substitute for 'beat' or 'lost' or 'defeated', however, is very common. The author of the article does a much better job explaining why it is hurtful and wrong than I ever could.

This is not to say that using the word 'genocide' or other synonyms are necessairy a great deal better, but you're a lot less likely to trigger somebody within earshot, and contribute to a culture that supports that type of language and those detrimental opinions about the severity of the crime.

If you can't appreciate why it might hurt someone and therefor language to be avoided, you should soul-search about your opinion about the feelings of others.
First of all genocide simply has too many syllables for that sort of thing

Secondly, my girlfriend had OCD and her trigger words were things like "Hitler", so no, you can't please everyone. The best we can hold to do is provide justice and support.

If we're so worried about trivialising words because its going to make the crime go unpunished or unopposed then we may as well give up on science and logic because the human mind is far too stupid to function.
 

Azuaron

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Helmholtz Watson said:
AmrasCalmacil said:
I can't really respond to this as eloquently as I'd like to, but they're not just words, they're never just words. They're cruelty and suffering and some of the most despicable things humanity as a collective can do.
They are words, they are words just like murder, genocide or starving are words. They are sounds that come out of our mouths that we associate with certain things.
Louis CK talks about words. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuLrBLxbLxw]

The main thing is that the sounds that come out of our mouths are things that, as you yourself said, we associate with certain things. For instance, we associate the word "rape" with "cruelty and suffering and some of the most despicable things humanity as a collective can do."

Words are not just the sounds our flapping meat makes. They are concepts and ideas, and they have emotional consequences.

About your other words, I've never heard anyone use trash talk like, "You're a starving victim of genocide." Maybe I don't play on the same servers you do. But I have heard, "I just raped you" while the speaker repeatedly crouches their avatar over a downed opponent.

And, "I just murdered you," in most games isn't so much trash talk as representative truth.

Besides, those are different words, different concepts, different meanings, with different emotional consequences that belong in a different conversation about what is--and is not--"acceptable" to use in trash talk.

But here we're talking about rape. Trying to obscure the subject isn't going to change that.

According to Captcha, I "have an inkling." So that's good.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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itsthesheppy said:
Because nobody in XBOX Live, or anywhere else, has said 'omg i totally just genocided that guy'. It's extremely rare to hear anyone say 'man we beat them so bad it was like genocide.'
Not as rare as you think, but the frequency at which it is used is a red herring from the conversation. Why is that word allowed to be used?

itsthesheppy said:
The use of the word 'rape' as a substitute for 'beat' or 'lost' or 'defeated', however, is very common. The author of the article does a much better job explaining why it is hurtful and wrong than I ever could.
Not answering the question I asked about the words I listed.
itsthesheppy said:
This is not to say that using the word 'genocide' or other synonyms are necessairy a great deal better, but you're a lot less likely to trigger somebody within earshot, and contribute to a culture that supports that type of language and those detrimental opinions about the severity of the crime.
So I shouldn't say rape because I might offend somebody [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok]? That's it?

itsthesheppy said:
If you can't appreciate why it might hurt someone and therefor language to be avoided, you should soul-search about your opinion about the feelings of others.
Cute, but not going to work. I realize that people are offended by it, I just disagree that the word rape should be treated with more consideration that words like starving or murder.
 

rayen020

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Therumancer said:
Your taking a shotgun to the subject in hopes of hitting something. I'll start out in being blunt in saying (as I've said before) that I myself was raped by a gay man when I was six. In my cause though I blocked it out, which doesn't make it any easier when you know it happened.

THAT said, you have to understand that there is more than one side to an issue like this. The feminists and their agenda are the biggest area of confrontation over issues like rape because that is the biggest front, that generally eclipses any side arguements or discussions.

The thing with rape discussions is that it usually comes down to demands for dual standards that favor women. We see this in the court system where it's basically argued that in a case where rape is the accusation that the defendant (the accused) should have to prove a negative (nearly impossible) and their own innocence, as opposed to the burden of proof being placed on the accuser and prosecution. Politics in these cases have created some massive travesties of justice, as rape is one of the few crimes where people have been convicted (sometimes regularly) on what amounts to purely circumstantial evidence, given that due to the trauma involved the victims (or those claiming to be victims) might wait weeks, months, or even years to ever say anything. Like most such things rife for abuse, it has been abused in all kinds of money grabbing schemes, black mail, or simply women wanting to ruin people's lives for "lulz" or using the system to effectively change their mind after the fact (ie if a girl sleeps with some guy, but decides it was a mistake, she can claim the guy raped her by way of justifying it to her boyfriend and then have the system remove the problem). This has all contributed to rape being an increasingly gray area.... especially as the definition of rape is being broadened beyond the intended meaning of someone forcing themselves sexually on a struggling victim, to simple things like getting someone drunk. Given the wide array of consentual sexual behavior, it can also be a touchy subject to determine whether someone who does have injuries was forced or not... which is incidently why the alleged rape victims are themselves dragged through the mud in such cases. It's also one of the reasons why a lot of the time I feel "closed door doctrine" should have made it into law (though I understand why it didn't).

The feminist arguements also come down to a dual standard as to what should be allowed. The basic arguement being that it's okay for women to produce, and read books about being ravished by pirates or whatever, but it's not okay for men to create or read the same thing.

I touched on this in a response to The Jimquisition recently about fantasy rape and the differance between it and reality. I generally don't think "rape" in a story where everyone winds up (eventually) having a good time is a big deal. It's adult material because you need to have an adult point of view to seperate that from reality. The problem of course being that a lot of feminist arguements come down to there being seperate standards for men and women when it comes to entertainment. If some lady reads about a female protaganist being tied up and raped (which is more politically changed to "ravished" in such cases) in a book with Fabio on the cover, purchused from the romance section, that's okay... but if some guy reads a book/comic/watches a movie about the same basic thing then it's to be treated differantly.

Feminism sucks because it by and large represents a dual standard, and the arguement that girls should be able to do things that get guys branded freaks or wierdos.

-

As far as rape as a TERM goes, it's use comes from the belief for many people that rape is more about power than sex. In reality that's not the case as much as many people like to believe, the belief being popularized because of the victims being upset over the loss of power and control, rather than that nessicarly being the motivating force for the rapist. I've read some analysises in the past that have pointed towards a trend where if it's about power for the rapist then the victim is unlikely to survive the experience as it usually crosses over into torture and murder as opposed to just being about the sex. The term gets used as a way of talking about dominating and using someone completly, with nothing they can do about it. Rather than saying "I'm going to dominate you and use you up" or "you got dominated" it's simply "your going to get raped". which flows better and conveys the meaning. I don't care for it myself even if I've used the term that way myself to fit in, but I don't think it's worth getting upset about either, slang changes over time, and we're liable to see this go away in a decade or so. Truthfully the more people complain about it, and the more they show their cards about it getting their goats, the longer it will stick around, as such complaints will simply fuel the subversive quality that fuels slang. Indeed I'd argue that articles like this are actually going to encorage people.... want to see the term die? Wait for it to be used non-stop, and only correctly about 20% of the time on some primetime programming that's trying to be hip (as opposed to judgemental). Have a bunch of "hipsters" running around a modern 90120 using the term constantly on some preppy beach or whatever, and that will kill it.

Thank you for correctly and sensibly articulating my feelings on this better than i could have. And while i don't intend to diminish you article i would like to add a few things.

The first being over-reaction. No i don't think you're being overdramatic dry-heaving when something visceral sets off flash-backs. I have multiple family members that have been or still are in the military and a more than one of them exhibits PTSD. We can't do fireworks on 4th of july with him because it brings back memories of when he was shot down. Little innocuous things can have bad effects. I don't even think the use of the word setting off something is outside belief. but (and here's the part where i become the asshole) responses unlike this one, the majority, at least what i've seen, are fueled by anger and attention-grabbing than by actual want for understanding.

The problem i've seen with these discussions is people are yelling at the wrong people. There are these paragons of virtue who think they need to stand up for the victims, because the victims can't speak for themselves(a view which is more negative than those of the other groups). and the paragons of freedom who want to say what they want, when they want, not caring if it offends folks. and the victims who feel left out of the discussion because neither side really understands what is happening. It leads to a argument which is neither here nor there on the problem at hand. Should you not be allowed to use the word? no, you should be able to use it if you want. You shouldn't want to use it because it describes something horrible visceral and traumatic. these are things that aren't fun for anyone.
 

Meatspinner

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I don't like where this site is headed. I thought it was about gaming. No offence to the writer of course
 

Susan Arendt

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Helmholtz Watson said:
So I shouldn't say rape because I might offend somebody [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok]? That's it?
It's not about offending, it's about hurting someone, on a very real level. What's more important to you - your use of the word, or not making someone relive trauma? What do you value more - saying "I raped you" on Xbox Live, or not giving someone nightmares?

That's what it comes down to, really. This isn't about someone's delicate sensibilities, this is about the fact that a single word can actually cause someone emotional and physical pain.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Doom972 said:
I laughed my head off when Brad Pitt died in Meet Joe Black (for some odd reason) but I'm damn sure I've never laughed at someone getting raped.

I recommend you watch the most recent episode of Jimquisition. He explains the difference better than I ever could.
 

Azuaron

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Doom972 said:
--snip--

So, you never laughed at the way someone died in a film/game/book even though a soldier in real life might have died that way? You never laughed at a racist joke? You never laughed at a stranger's misfortune?
You are either a liar or a very humorless person. since you are a member of this site, I'll assume the former. With you being a hypocrite, I politely ask that you stay away from me and everyone I know.
I don't know what it is about people misunderstanding how different words are different, so let me make this abundantly clear:

Rape is different from murder.

Rape is different from killing.

Rape is different from racism (which, by the by, is also never funny).

Rape is different from injury and misfortune.

If you still don't understand what I'm saying, Jim Sterling has spelled it out for you [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5972-Rape-vs-Murder].

Generally speaking, most of these are not humorous in most situations.

But rape is never funny.

And hypocrisy does not mean what you think it means; for me to be a hypocrite, I'd have to be yelling at you for telling rape jokes, then telling rape jokes. I'd have to be doing the thing I'm telling you not to do, not doing a different thing. It's like calling a conservative who's against gay marriage a hypocrite because he married a woman; while similar, it's not the same thing (granted, I'd still not associate with him, hypocrite or not).

While I am considered somewhat odd in my humor, I don't think I can be labeled humorless; etymology, for instance, is often hilarious.
 

The Random One

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Congratulations on a very necessary article. May your courage in writing it bear the fruit of a better world.

But...

itsthesheppy said:
This article is simply... stunning, I should say. In that reading it, I had to sit back and just be in awe that someone could survive and cope with something so horrible. It's just a shame that I feel like a lot of people will read it, but feel like "well, when *I* use the word, I'm not being hurtful" and just not get what this brave guy is saying.
My thoughts exactly. Down here in the echo chambers of the internet people are very used to making complex doublethink acrobatics so they never have to go through the trouble of changing their minds. I can only hope at least some of those people allow your earnest article to pierce their armor of bullshit.

Just the other day I saw someone complain that Sarkeesian kept signaling her blog posts as 'trigger warnings'. It wasn't some random internet dipshit, it was on the Rock Paper Shotgun comments where people were not shouting that stupid feminists should make them sandwiches but citing feminist theory and complaining about second wave feminism. And yet, someone thought that trigger warnings were just a random attention grab for feminists, no different from the warnings at the beginning of No Russian saying the level was just TOO INTENSE. It's just difficult to convey the seriousness of such a situation.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Azuaron said:
Louis CK talks about words. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuLrBLxbLxw]

The main thing is that the sounds that come out of our mouths are things that, as you yourself said, we associate with certain things. For instance, we associate the word "rape" with "cruelty and suffering and some of the most despicable things humanity as a collective can do."

Words are not just the sounds our flapping meat makes. They are concepts and ideas, and they have emotional consequences.

About your other words, I've never heard anyone use trash talk like, "You're a starving victim of genocide." Maybe I don't play on the same servers you do. But I have heard, "I just raped you" while the speaker repeatedly crouches their avatar over a downed opponent.

And, "I just murdered you," in most games isn't so much trash talk as representative truth.

Besides, those are different words, different concepts, different meanings, with different emotional consequences that belong in a different conversation about what is--and is not--"acceptable" to use in trash talk.

But here we're talking about rape. Trying to obscure the subject isn't going to change that.

According to Captcha, I "have an inkling." So that's good.
Steve Hughes talks about people overreacting to words [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok]

I realize that people associate ideas with words, I just disagree that some words are not ok to use in trash talking.

As for what you and I have heard, when I have played Halo or COD and somebody killed a large number of people without dieing themselves, I have heard people say that they "just committed a genocide".
 

Eveonline100

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centermassmatt said:
That was an incredibly brave and thoughtful article. I think you are correct in saying that it is a limp, often permanent handicap psychologically for victims of such sexual abuse.

However, I have a very close friend who was also a victim of sexual abuse. She was abused/raped by her father regularly from ages 8-12.

She tends to use the word rape about as casually as anyone, although she's not a gamer, but if someone brings up the concept of "daddy issues" she gets uncomfortable and making light of incest makes her down-right vengeful.

I'm not trying to make a point with this, but just an observation of how differently some people take these things and what "triggers" can be from one person to another.

Certain personality types react differently to certain traumas in very different ways. The problem here is, no one can be expected to walk on eggshells around everybody because they *might* be victims of this or that abuse. Especially if they're unwilling to admit it.

It is a two-sided dilemma but I think both sides need to take responsibility. If someone says something that offends you it is, ostensibly your responsibility to inform them of your offense, then it is their prerogative whether or not they want to be sensitive to you and change their behavior or carry on as they normally would and ignore your offense, choosing freedom of speech over sensitivity.

That said, that does NOT account for the traumatic element of actually admitting to said abuse/trauma. Thus, a certain measure of sensitivity is needed on the part of the person saying those things in the case of such things.

Words are one thing but the emphasis behind those words are where the issue lies. I don't necessarily support anyone being limited to what they should or should not say but I also don't support anyone being put in a position that Mr. Anonymous has been put in over and over again just by proxy of the fact that he was a victim of such a heinous crime.
I'll agree with you up to the point about "walking on eggshells since that person could be a victim of abuse". Look if this "trigger was an everyday occurrence( car alarms, hearing a loud noise, etc...) then i'll by it buy it and agree with you but to be blunt "rape" is exactly that gets commonly used(this is from a guy who is gamer). This isn't say the word shouldn't be used in a context where it makes sense. To be blunt it shouldn't even be used as a insult in the first place (mind you I don't get jokes about rape or how you even could make a joke about rape). Please explain to me how or why this even became a term used by online gamers as a part of trash talking anyway (as you said people should be allowed to say what they want but still though). Honestly it boil down to the idea of well "don't be a jackass" being lost to pretty much a size able(minority) of online players. FInally the idea of having to walk around eggshells when it comes to using the word "rape" is actually kinda of faulty as i said before this can be used in context that made sense(Hey guys " did you see what Joe did to Kate in Adventures?" "What did he rape her?") its just that the word has very little common usage. I'll guess i used the word maybe 3 or 4 times over the past month with the various conversations. To close out on what i'm trying to say "I refuse to believe this word has any place in trash talking, i refuse to believe the idea of walking on eggshells when it comes to gaming in an effort not to offend people is what must be done seriously not offending people isn't that hard general rule of thumb is don't bring in religion,gender, rape, murder, politics, or sexuality into to trash talking and you can be sure you won't offend anyone or bother anyone either(better rule don't bring up anything that provokes an emotional response and your good to go .
Note to the author
I hope you are doing your best to enjoy life and settle down with the right woman. I have no idea whats it must have been like to write this(other than it being hard may be an understatement).
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Susan Arendt said:
It's not about offending, it's about hurting someone, on a very real level. What's more important to you - your use of the word, or not making someone relive trauma? What do you value more - saying "I raped you" on Xbox Live, or not giving someone nightmares?

That's what it comes down to, really. This isn't about someone's delicate sensibilities, this is about the fact that a single word can actually cause someone emotional and physical pain.
I would say that if hearing "I raped you" on Xbox live is too much for a person, then they shouldn't be on there to begin with because I can't imagine how a person would deal with killing virtual people in a game like COD or Halo.

EDIT:wow, its very nice to "meet" you! I didn't know that you guys actually read the forums.
 

Anonymous

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Chertan said:
I don't like where this site is headed. I thought it was about gaming. No offence to the writer of course
As others have stated in this thread, we discuss gaming culture on The Escapist, and a part of that is the way our society interacts while playing games.
 

Steve Butts

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centermassmatt said:
Certain personality types react differently to certain traumas in very different ways. The problem here is, no one can be expected to walk on eggshells around everybody because they *might* be victims of this or that abuse. Especially if they're unwilling to admit it.

It is a two-sided dilemma but I think both sides need to take responsibility. If someone says something that offends you it is, ostensibly your responsibility to inform them of your offense, then it is their prerogative whether or not they want to be sensitive to you and change their behavior or carry on as they normally would and ignore your offense, choosing freedom of speech over sensitivity.
The problem isn't the person who accidentally step on a few eggshells in ordinary conversation; it's the bulls in the china shop on Xbox Live, where the word has become a casual, everpresent sort of insult.

Not everyone recognizes a distinction between what we're allowed to say and what we ought to say, so freedom of speech is often held up as as justification for any dumbass to say any dumbass thing they want. While there's probably some personal bias here, I not convinced that John Locke and James Madison were advocating for the right of Ballzinya to call you gay because he can beat you at Counter-Strike. I could be wrong.

The exception I take with your quote is the whole "especially if they're unwilling to admit it." In fact, given that offending and injuring you is the whole point of this type of language, I'm not sure, "Please don't say that because I actually am/was ____" is a great starting point for increased tolerance in online gaming. I support the courage of those who do it, but I don't think failure to disclose personal traumas makes it okay for other players on the server to throw their own humanity out of the window.
 

hecticpicnic

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One of the best articles i've read on the escapist

Some other things to keep in mind are; the use of rape as shock humour, or talking the taboo
conversationally e.g. like making 9/11 jokes.
-and the fetish part of it or phobia, what i mean is there was studys done in the 40s to 60s done by Freud and such, which show how some woman fantasise about being raped(dominated).
Same can be said for some men, or in the dominating position.People can be insecure about this and hate themselves and/or stigmatize rape victims, or have a phobia with them, like with homophobia.

IMO non-consensual(/violent) sex is a terrible thing to do to an adult, as your making them feel helpless, powerless and loathsome.
And with children it can scar them and fuck them up for the rest of their lives.