The R Word

[darji]

This. Why is it difficult to be kind or at least inoffensive? It's always mind-boggling to me when people think that just because they have a right to do something that automatically makes it a good idea. Sure you're free to say horrible things to other people over the internet but why? Just because you're allowed to be a dick doesn't mean you should exercise that right, especially in such a hurtful manner.

I think the whiny, self righteous behaviour of some people whose requests for people to avoid that sort of language can read more like demands aren't helping. I've never used the word rape in that way, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't listen to someone who calls people childish apparently for just disagreeing with them.

I called him childish for giving no argument other than "you can't stop me, so i'm gonna keep doing it"

And I said that you can call names all you want, but you don't have the right to censor me.

I am not fucking censoring you. I am asking you to think about the ramifications of using rape casually, and saying that it is an insensitive and cruel thing to do. This is not censorship! It is not even close.

Given everything this thread has said about the damage and distress I'm asking you this: Why SHOULDN'T you stop using it? You, personally, no censorship or anything. Why shouldn't you decide to, of your own volition, stop using that word.

I am sorry but I am really offended by the word "fuck" please think about this the next time when you use it so casually. Its really insensitive of you using such a word on the internet.....

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I'm not gonna force you, I'm just asking you to stop. You have the right to do a lot of things, doesn't mean they're morally acceptable, or even a good idea.

Ok, you can ask, but I refuse to stop. Now then, knowing that I refuse, are you going to leave it at that or are you going to try to force me to stop?

As for you comment about morals, morals differ from person to person.

 

[CaptainKarma]

I'm not gonna force you, I'm just asking you to stop. You have the right to do a lot of things, doesn't mean they're morally acceptable, or even a good idea.

Ok, you can ask, but I refuse to stop. Now then, knowing that I refuse, are you going to leave it at that or are you going to try to force me to stop?

As for you comment about morals, morals differ from person to person.

I'm asking why you refuse to stop. You blathered that I couldn't stop you, which is not a reason.

 

[GloatingSwine]

This. Why is it difficult to be kind or at least inoffensive? It's always mind-boggling to me when people think that just because they have a right to do something that automatically makes it a good idea. Sure you're free to say horrible things to other people over the internet but why? Just because you're allowed to be a dick doesn't mean you should exercise that right, especially in such a hurtful manner.

I think the whiny, self righteous behaviour of some people whose requests for people to avoid that sort of language can read more like demands aren't helping. I've never used the word rape in that way, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't listen to someone who calls people childish apparently for just disagreeing with them.

I called him childish for giving no argument other than "you can't stop me, so i'm gonna keep doing it"

And I said that you can call names all you want, but you don't have the right to censor me.

Let's get this straight, because internet teenagers of all ages love to say that they have "rights" whenever someone points out that they're being assholes. You don't have any. The Escapist (and this goes for every other web forum out there) is a private establishment with it's own determined standards of behaviour. Your "rights" mean precisely jack, fucking, and squat. If the Escapist staff decided they didn't like what you said, you would lose the power to say it because they would kick you out of the private establishment, and that would be their right as the owners of it.

You are a guest in this establishment, you have no rights, only such powers as the staff here choose to allow you.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

snip

...what? Who is talking about this website? My entire discussion is in reference to what I say on Xbox live.

I'm asking why you refuse to stop.

Because I don't feel that saying the word "rape" is any more worse than saying the word "murder" and as such I feel no compulsion to not say it.

 

[Orekoya]

Your taking a shotgun to the subject in hopes of hitting something. I'll start out in being blunt in saying (as I've said before) that I myself was raped by a gay man when I was six. In my cause though I blocked it out, which doesn't make it any easier when you know it happened.

Your name is familiar; I've seen you do alot of arguing typically against gay rights in many different threads. Seeing your name in a gay thread usually just pissed me off to the point of simply not reading your posts anymore but now I'm just expressing genuine curiosity. I just spent the past couple of hours debating if I should even bring this up but I just have to know: how do you know the man who raped you was a gay man? I mean was he someone you knew or was it something you found out later? Because reading that statement by itself and knowing your post history, I can't help but feel you might be projecting your feelings on pedophiles, rape and your personal experience onto homosexuals.

I don't paticularly want to de-rail this thread, but I'll say this much:

The gist of what your saying is pretty much loaded. The basic idea being that if someone like me has been victimized, we're effectively too biased to take a rational stance on the subject. If we haven't been victimized we're ignorant and "how could we know" based simply on rhetoric.

I will say this much. What happened to me has lead to me putting a lot of effort into learning about the subject, the gay community, and how things actually are. I know more about homosexuals, the gay rights movement, and the gay community, culture, and subcultures than most gay people within that culture do. It's kind of funny but in the past I've shocked people with some of the things I know, due to the assumption that someone who wasn't gay couldn't possibly know those things the way I did (and no, I won't go into details here). You'd be surprised at what you can do when properly motivated.

A point many people who argue gay rights with me miss is that I'm not talking bunk when I say that my position on the subject has waffled over the years before settling on my current point of view. Something based on what information I've had, and looking at the big picture, as well as the people I've known. It shocks some people think that I might have actually supported the rights of gay men at one time, and that I have to be lying about it, but it happens to be true. When I was in college I probably sat in on more ABIGAYLES meetings than most gay people did. My interests also caused me to look into certain trends and patterns of behavior more closely than most people have done when given a brief.

Despite what people might want to think, the reason why an arguement with me on this subject can't be "won" is because I happen to be right. They miss the point that I was sitting where a lot of the people argueing with me are decades ago, and I know what they think they know, and also realize that if they ever really looked into the subject with any kind of actual interest and effort, they would become me. Hence the constant prodding for people to do their own research, and do their own digging and such. It's the kind of situation where someone can't just tell you the truth, it has to be gained from experience. Of course it takes a decent amount of effort and without a motivating force like mine a lot of people are just going to take things at face value, and let's face it, tolerance is the easier path since it doesn't involve actually having to do anything, especially nowadays when there is already inertia for it.

I was more curious than trying to accuse you of anything, among your many, many, many (over 8000) posts I know you statistically take a more or less neutral stance on gays but then again I've also seen you call gay people sexual deviants and say other vicious things and the lingering negative remembrance of those post far outweigh your neutral ones. So can you really blame me for asking?

 

[Imrix]

Be cause I don't feel that saying the word "rape" is any more worse than saying the word "murder" and as such I feel no compulsion to not say it.

There's an issue of context here. "Saying the word rape" is one thing; it's necessary if you're going to discuss it as an issue, file reports about victims, etc.

Using the word as an insult, "I totally raped you in that round!" or similar is something different. If I had to define the difference, I'd say it's about using the word versus using it casually.

So, that said... You don't feel any compulsion to avoid reminding people of old, but very real and very intense trauma, for the sake of casually flinging a certain word around? How... Polite of you.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Be cause I don't feel that saying the word "rape" is any more worse than saying the word "murder" and as such I feel no compulsion to not say it.

There's an issue of context here. "Saying the word rape" is one thing; it's necessary if you're going to discuss it as an issue, file reports about victims, etc.

Using the word as an insult, "I totally raped you in that round!" or similar is something different. If I had to define the difference, I'd say it's about using the word versus using it casually.

So, that said... You don't feel any compulsion to avoid reminding people of old, but very real and very intense trauma, for the sake of casually flinging a certain word around? How... Polite of you.

Let me elaborate, since I can say the word "murder" casually or use it to describe a situation, I feel that the word "rape" should get the same treatment.

 

[darji]

Be cause I don't feel that saying the word "rape" is any more worse than saying the word "murder" and as such I feel no compulsion to not say it.

There's an issue of context here. "Saying the word rape" is one thing; it's necessary if you're going to discuss it as an issue, file reports about victims, etc.

Using the word as an insult, "I totally raped you in that round!" or similar is something different. If I had to define the difference, I'd say it's about using the word versus using it casually.

So, that said... You don't feel any compulsion to avoid reminding people of old, but very real and very intense trauma, for the sake of casually flinging a certain word around? How... Polite of you.

How the "fuck" is this different from Kill and murder you. Both can trigger these traumas . YOu cant just try to say rape is a special case when its not.

Either go all the way or dont even try it because it makes you looking stupid.

 

[axlryder]

Be cause I don't feel that saying the word "rape" is any more worse than saying the word "murder" and as such I feel no compulsion to not say it.

There's an issue of context here. "Saying the word rape" is one thing; it's necessary if you're going to discuss it as an issue, file reports about victims, etc.

Using the word as an insult, "I totally raped you in that round!" or similar is something different. If I had to define the difference, I'd say it's about using the word versus using it casually.

So, that said... You don't feel any compulsion to avoid reminding people of old, but very real and very intense trauma, for the sake of casually flinging a certain word around? How... Polite of you.

How the "fuck" is this different from Kill and murder you. Both can trigger these traumas . YOu cant just try to say rape is a special case when its not.

Either go all the way or dont even try it because it makes you looking stupid.

Please, for the love of god, proofread.

 

[Taunta]

Okay...I understand that you have the RIGHT to say what you want. That is perfectly fine. What I don't understand is WHY you would WANT to say it. I...I literally cannot comprehend any reasoning behind such callous insulting, especially to other people you do not know.

I guess after saying that I'm "starving" when I really mean that I haven't eaten in a few hours or saying that a test is "killing" me when I really mean that I find a test difficult, I just think that "rape" is just a word like "starving" or "killing". As such, it isn't something to get worked up over.

Maybe I'm too optimistic but I always thought that such words were to be ashamed of, not lauded. I don't think you would just casually say such people to random people off the street, so why do you feel the need to say it over a game? What possible benefit could you gain by doing this? I literally do not know. Please explain. I cannot understand such a lack of empathy or such a desire to insult people you do not know...

Just a form of expression I guess. Also when I was in highschool, the term was used very often when a person did well on a test.

It's not about your right to express yourself. Your right to express yourself ends when you're infringing on someone else's rights to not be grievously emotionally harmed.

Eggshells that I don't have to walk on.

Perhaps you should examine why your enjoyment of a game is so closely entwined with the usage of the word "rape" and other hurtful language.

I have and people are making a big thing out of nothing.

It's not "censorship" it's "Basic Social Skills". Typically people who are not social clods don't go around spouting inflammatory jokes and phrases in public because they don't know you like that. If you want to reserve your right to joke about rape then that's fine, but you should keep it around people you know, like how people like to keep other inflammatory statements around their friends, because you as a group have decided that you're okay with discussing it.

I go back to what I have typed previously, I have a right to say it and people have a right to tell me off and mute me.

Running your mouth in public is not a good practice, and it's gotten a lot of real life people in trouble, even lost their jobs.

I'm not some silly celebrity on twitter, nor do I live in the UK. Thanks for the concern though.

I never thought I'd have to explain "Why you can't say certain things in public".

If you want me to follow your rules when I don't have to then you better explain yourself.

You don't have to be a celebrity or in the UK to get in trouble. They're not my rules. It's called being a decent human being. If you can't honestly understand why willingly hurting other people for the sake of your own enjoyment is a bad thing, then you're beyond my help.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

You don't have to be a celebrity or in the UK to get in trouble.

I'm not going to loose my job over trash talking on Xbox live.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Yes, words change meaning, that's my point. Beating used to mean "Physically hitting", now it also means "defeating". Rape at the moment means "sexual assault" but it seems to be in the process of acquiring the additional meaning of domination in a broader and more figurative sense that is also applied to a competitive scenario. If you believe that every person who currently uses the term does so with a sexual context in mind I think you'd be wrong.

I disagree, I believe the word has been sanitised so that it isn't as offensive but it's root derivation is still the same. Still, we differ on this and that's not something we can argue. If you want to say it, fine, I don't advocate censorship but I advocate acting like an adult and this is where we seem to be having the issue.

Not really. Everybody has their own subjective set of naughty words, no-gos, trigger scenarios and hot-button issues. One can say, not say or ignore whatever they want, but IMO what makes someone socially retarded is (amongst others) to act like everybody else has to follow their personal ruleset or be, well, socially retarded. One of the first things you will learn when you grow up is that other people have their own morals and world views and not everything you believe to be right or wrong may be just that. For example, I disagree with the notion that people can't be human beings for not keeping to your proposed use of vocabulary.

I once got asked by somebody to stop using the word "fan" because he found it offensive. "Fan". How about no.

One person asks you to stop saying Fan, fine, ignore them. If the majority of people ask you to stop saying something, that's being socially conscious. Ignoring the wishes or requests of everyone around you because you feel it doesn't apply to you is what I would define as 'socially retarded' and it's how the argument is coming across.

Rape is, by a general consensus, an issue for a lot of people (certainly I'd guess a majority) so there are a number of people who would rather it not be used casually. In certain social contexts (privellaged people who've never encountered it I guess), it's likely acceptable to discuss it or, hell, probably even crack a joke. But to complete strangers, standard social norms say you don't make a joke out of something which, for them, could well be a traumatic issue. I'm not saying you can't, maybe not even that you shouldn't, but that you should consider the matter before blithely shouting you raped someone at that last match. It's just consideration for other people. It's not someone censoring you, it's being an adult, if your half as grown up as you think you are you'll hopefully see where I'm coming from with this.

A random person on the internet doesn't like that I disagree with them.

I don't care you disagree with me, I care you took the moral highground for the right to say you raped someone at a video-game when other people have said it was a word that offended them. It grated on my morals so I responded in kind.

 

[Imrix]

Let me elaborate, since I can say the word "murder" casually or use it to describe a situation, I feel that the word "rape" should get the same treatment.

How the "fuck" is this different from Kill and murder you.

Well, no, the two are not the same. One can argue that the vileness of the act of murder and that of rape is roughly equal (or you can say they're not, but that's a side issue), but the emotional aftermath of the latter is much more than murder, because murder victims aren't still around to be traumatized by the experience.

The fallout of a murder is grieving friends and family; tragic, but at least they have that thin layer of seperation of the tragedy befalling someone else. Any way you slice it, there is a certain amount of seperation that makes it easier to deal when something terrible happens to someone else. We can sympathise with their plight, but we're not telepaths; we don't feel exactly what they feel. The fallout of rape is all that and the devastation of the victim, who not only has to stick around and work through it, but feels it that much more keenly because they're not being horrified on behalf of somebody else; it happened to them.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Let me elaborate, since I can say the word "murder" casually or use it to describe a situation, I feel that the word "rape" should get the same treatment.

How the "fuck" is this different from Kill and murder you.

Well, no, the two are not the same. One can argue that the vileness of the act of murder and that of rape is roughly equal (or you can say they're not, but that's a side issue), but the emotional aftermath of the latter is much more than murder, because murder victims aren't still around to be traumatized by the experience.

The fallout of a murder is grieving friends and family; tragic, but at least they have that thin layer of seperation of the tragedy befalling someone else. Any way you slice it, there is a certain amount of seperation that makes it easier to deal when something terrible happens to someone else. We can sympathise with their plight, but we're not telepaths; we don't feel exactly what they feel. The fallout of rape is all that and the devastation of the victim, who not only has to stick around and work through it, but feels it that much more keenly because it they're not being horrified on behalf of somebody else; it happened to them.

And what about people who have survived attempted murder? This all goes back to, "you shouldn't do it because it might offend somebody" to which I say "...and?" [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok].

 

[axlryder]

I find it odd how a lot of people don't seem willing to acknowledge that, "hey, maybe colloquially using the words murder and torture (and whatever else) could be a trigger for someone, as they are both vile acts that can permanently fuck a person up on a deep level". I know people use those words often and out of the "proper" context (I see it enough). Yet I see a lot of arguments for rape being the only real no-no word. Why can't people just say, "hey, maybe people we should avoid using those words colloquially too, just for the sake of maybe not offending someone who's had a similarly traumatic experience with murder or torture as a rape victim might have had with rape". Just how I see it. I mean, if people would just agree to that, I think people would see a lot less resistance here, as less people would feel like they're being manipulated by the spooky "feminist agenda" or being arbitrarily limited. Plus, you get the bonus of, I dunno, not emotionally harming people who actually HAVE had traumatic experiences with torture and murder and such.

 

[Imrix]

And what about people who have survived attempted murder? This all goes back to, "you shouldn't do it because it might offend somebody" to which I say "...and?" [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok].

Then I'd compare that to somebody who survived attempted rape, not an actual rape victim.

There are, of course, a number of other reasons why Rape Is A Special Kind Of Evil [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13109563260A17380100&page=0] but this is the one I personally find most convincing.

 

[Taunta]

You don't have to be a celebrity or in the UK to get in trouble.

I'm not going to loose my job over trash talking on Xbox live.

Why stop at Xbox live? According to your logic, you should just be able to say whatever you what whenever you want to? Why not make rape jokes on social media sites?

Also I don't think your future boss would be impressed if he or she found out about your massive privilege problem and your desire to hurt other people. You're not some kind of revolutionary standing up for your right to make tasteless and inflammatory jokes in public that hurt other people. (Which is a load by the way. You don't have those rights.)

 

[Taunta]

I find it odd how a lot of people don't seem willing to acknowledge that, "hey, maybe colloquially using the words murder and torture (and whatever else) could be a trigger for someone, as they are both vile acts that can permanently fuck a person up on a deep level". I know people use those words often and out of the "proper" context (I see it enough). Yet I see a lot of arguments for rape being the only real no-no word. Why can't people just say, "hey, maybe people we should avoid using those words colloquially too, just for the sake of maybe not offending someone who's had a similarly traumatic experience with murder or torture as a rape victim might have had with rape". Just how I see it. I mean, if people would just agree to that, I think people would see a lot less resistance here, as less people would feel like they're being manipulated by the spooky "feminist agenda" or being arbitrarily limited. Plus, you get the bonus of, I dunno, not emotionally harming people who actually HAVE had traumatic experiences with torture and murder and such.

That point has already been made earlier in this thread. Whats-his-face just refuses to acknowledge it and still uses those words to deflect the issue.

 

[macfluffers]

Well, no, the two are not the same. One can argue that the vileness of the act of murder and that of rape is roughly equal (or you can say they're not, but that's a side issue), but the emotional aftermath of the latter is much more than murder, because murder victims aren't still around to be traumatized by the experience.

Yes, but does that mean that we can't use phrases like "I'm starving" or "I'm dying of thirst" because people who were severely neglected as children and nearly died due to hunger or dehydration could hear? Or what about "I felt strangled" or "I was suffocating" because there might be a victim of attempted murder via strangulation in the vicinity? Or "That was torture" because somebody you're talking to was actually tortured?

You can argue that rape is more horrific, has a longer fallout, or is more common, but the degree of the trauma doesn't change the underlying fact that nobody should be responsible for anybody's feelings other than their own.

I think it's wise to be polite, but I don't think we should make demands of anybody to change their speech to protect the emotional concerns of others.