The R Word

[Helmholtz Watson]

Be cause I don't feel that saying the word "rape" is any more worse than saying the word "murder" and as such I feel no compulsion to not say it.

There's an issue of context here. "Saying the word rape" is one thing; it's necessary if you're going to discuss it as an issue, file reports about victims, etc.

Using the word as an insult, "I totally raped you in that round!" or similar is something different. If I had to define the difference, I'd say it's about using the word versus using it casually.

So, that said... You don't feel any compulsion to avoid reminding people of old, but very real and very intense trauma, for the sake of casually flinging a certain word around? How... Polite of you.

Let me elaborate, since I can say the word "murder" casually or use it to describe a situation, I feel that the word "rape" should get the same treatment.

 

[darji]

Be cause I don't feel that saying the word "rape" is any more worse than saying the word "murder" and as such I feel no compulsion to not say it.

There's an issue of context here. "Saying the word rape" is one thing; it's necessary if you're going to discuss it as an issue, file reports about victims, etc.

Using the word as an insult, "I totally raped you in that round!" or similar is something different. If I had to define the difference, I'd say it's about using the word versus using it casually.

So, that said... You don't feel any compulsion to avoid reminding people of old, but very real and very intense trauma, for the sake of casually flinging a certain word around? How... Polite of you.

How the "fuck" is this different from Kill and murder you. Both can trigger these traumas . YOu cant just try to say rape is a special case when its not.

Either go all the way or dont even try it because it makes you looking stupid.

 

[axlryder]

Be cause I don't feel that saying the word "rape" is any more worse than saying the word "murder" and as such I feel no compulsion to not say it.

There's an issue of context here. "Saying the word rape" is one thing; it's necessary if you're going to discuss it as an issue, file reports about victims, etc.

Using the word as an insult, "I totally raped you in that round!" or similar is something different. If I had to define the difference, I'd say it's about using the word versus using it casually.

So, that said... You don't feel any compulsion to avoid reminding people of old, but very real and very intense trauma, for the sake of casually flinging a certain word around? How... Polite of you.

How the "fuck" is this different from Kill and murder you. Both can trigger these traumas . YOu cant just try to say rape is a special case when its not.

Either go all the way or dont even try it because it makes you looking stupid.

Please, for the love of god, proofread.

 

[Taunta]

Okay...I understand that you have the RIGHT to say what you want. That is perfectly fine. What I don't understand is WHY you would WANT to say it. I...I literally cannot comprehend any reasoning behind such callous insulting, especially to other people you do not know.

I guess after saying that I'm "starving" when I really mean that I haven't eaten in a few hours or saying that a test is "killing" me when I really mean that I find a test difficult, I just think that "rape" is just a word like "starving" or "killing". As such, it isn't something to get worked up over.

Maybe I'm too optimistic but I always thought that such words were to be ashamed of, not lauded. I don't think you would just casually say such people to random people off the street, so why do you feel the need to say it over a game? What possible benefit could you gain by doing this? I literally do not know. Please explain. I cannot understand such a lack of empathy or such a desire to insult people you do not know...

Just a form of expression I guess. Also when I was in highschool, the term was used very often when a person did well on a test.

It's not about your right to express yourself. Your right to express yourself ends when you're infringing on someone else's rights to not be grievously emotionally harmed.

Eggshells that I don't have to walk on.

Perhaps you should examine why your enjoyment of a game is so closely entwined with the usage of the word "rape" and other hurtful language.

I have and people are making a big thing out of nothing.

It's not "censorship" it's "Basic Social Skills". Typically people who are not social clods don't go around spouting inflammatory jokes and phrases in public because they don't know you like that. If you want to reserve your right to joke about rape then that's fine, but you should keep it around people you know, like how people like to keep other inflammatory statements around their friends, because you as a group have decided that you're okay with discussing it.

I go back to what I have typed previously, I have a right to say it and people have a right to tell me off and mute me.

Running your mouth in public is not a good practice, and it's gotten a lot of real life people in trouble, even lost their jobs.

I'm not some silly celebrity on twitter, nor do I live in the UK. Thanks for the concern though.

I never thought I'd have to explain "Why you can't say certain things in public".

If you want me to follow your rules when I don't have to then you better explain yourself.

You don't have to be a celebrity or in the UK to get in trouble. They're not my rules. It's called being a decent human being. If you can't honestly understand why willingly hurting other people for the sake of your own enjoyment is a bad thing, then you're beyond my help.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

You don't have to be a celebrity or in the UK to get in trouble.

I'm not going to loose my job over trash talking on Xbox live.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Yes, words change meaning, that's my point. Beating used to mean "Physically hitting", now it also means "defeating". Rape at the moment means "sexual assault" but it seems to be in the process of acquiring the additional meaning of domination in a broader and more figurative sense that is also applied to a competitive scenario. If you believe that every person who currently uses the term does so with a sexual context in mind I think you'd be wrong.

I disagree, I believe the word has been sanitised so that it isn't as offensive but it's root derivation is still the same. Still, we differ on this and that's not something we can argue. If you want to say it, fine, I don't advocate censorship but I advocate acting like an adult and this is where we seem to be having the issue.

Not really. Everybody has their own subjective set of naughty words, no-gos, trigger scenarios and hot-button issues. One can say, not say or ignore whatever they want, but IMO what makes someone socially retarded is (amongst others) to act like everybody else has to follow their personal ruleset or be, well, socially retarded. One of the first things you will learn when you grow up is that other people have their own morals and world views and not everything you believe to be right or wrong may be just that. For example, I disagree with the notion that people can't be human beings for not keeping to your proposed use of vocabulary.

I once got asked by somebody to stop using the word "fan" because he found it offensive. "Fan". How about no.

One person asks you to stop saying Fan, fine, ignore them. If the majority of people ask you to stop saying something, that's being socially conscious. Ignoring the wishes or requests of everyone around you because you feel it doesn't apply to you is what I would define as 'socially retarded' and it's how the argument is coming across.

Rape is, by a general consensus, an issue for a lot of people (certainly I'd guess a majority) so there are a number of people who would rather it not be used casually. In certain social contexts (privellaged people who've never encountered it I guess), it's likely acceptable to discuss it or, hell, probably even crack a joke. But to complete strangers, standard social norms say you don't make a joke out of something which, for them, could well be a traumatic issue. I'm not saying you can't, maybe not even that you shouldn't, but that you should consider the matter before blithely shouting you raped someone at that last match. It's just consideration for other people. It's not someone censoring you, it's being an adult, if your half as grown up as you think you are you'll hopefully see where I'm coming from with this.

A random person on the internet doesn't like that I disagree with them.

I don't care you disagree with me, I care you took the moral highground for the right to say you raped someone at a video-game when other people have said it was a word that offended them. It grated on my morals so I responded in kind.

 

[Imrix]

Let me elaborate, since I can say the word "murder" casually or use it to describe a situation, I feel that the word "rape" should get the same treatment.

How the "fuck" is this different from Kill and murder you.

Well, no, the two are not the same. One can argue that the vileness of the act of murder and that of rape is roughly equal (or you can say they're not, but that's a side issue), but the emotional aftermath of the latter is much more than murder, because murder victims aren't still around to be traumatized by the experience.

The fallout of a murder is grieving friends and family; tragic, but at least they have that thin layer of seperation of the tragedy befalling someone else. Any way you slice it, there is a certain amount of seperation that makes it easier to deal when something terrible happens to someone else. We can sympathise with their plight, but we're not telepaths; we don't feel exactly what they feel. The fallout of rape is all that and the devastation of the victim, who not only has to stick around and work through it, but feels it that much more keenly because they're not being horrified on behalf of somebody else; it happened to them.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Let me elaborate, since I can say the word "murder" casually or use it to describe a situation, I feel that the word "rape" should get the same treatment.

How the "fuck" is this different from Kill and murder you.

Well, no, the two are not the same. One can argue that the vileness of the act of murder and that of rape is roughly equal (or you can say they're not, but that's a side issue), but the emotional aftermath of the latter is much more than murder, because murder victims aren't still around to be traumatized by the experience.

The fallout of a murder is grieving friends and family; tragic, but at least they have that thin layer of seperation of the tragedy befalling someone else. Any way you slice it, there is a certain amount of seperation that makes it easier to deal when something terrible happens to someone else. We can sympathise with their plight, but we're not telepaths; we don't feel exactly what they feel. The fallout of rape is all that and the devastation of the victim, who not only has to stick around and work through it, but feels it that much more keenly because it they're not being horrified on behalf of somebody else; it happened to them.

And what about people who have survived attempted murder? This all goes back to, "you shouldn't do it because it might offend somebody" to which I say "...and?" [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok].

 

[axlryder]

I find it odd how a lot of people don't seem willing to acknowledge that, "hey, maybe colloquially using the words murder and torture (and whatever else) could be a trigger for someone, as they are both vile acts that can permanently fuck a person up on a deep level". I know people use those words often and out of the "proper" context (I see it enough). Yet I see a lot of arguments for rape being the only real no-no word. Why can't people just say, "hey, maybe people we should avoid using those words colloquially too, just for the sake of maybe not offending someone who's had a similarly traumatic experience with murder or torture as a rape victim might have had with rape". Just how I see it. I mean, if people would just agree to that, I think people would see a lot less resistance here, as less people would feel like they're being manipulated by the spooky "feminist agenda" or being arbitrarily limited. Plus, you get the bonus of, I dunno, not emotionally harming people who actually HAVE had traumatic experiences with torture and murder and such.

 

[Imrix]

And what about people who have survived attempted murder? This all goes back to, "you shouldn't do it because it might offend somebody" to which I say "...and?" [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok].

Then I'd compare that to somebody who survived attempted rape, not an actual rape victim.

There are, of course, a number of other reasons why Rape Is A Special Kind Of Evil [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13109563260A17380100&page=0] but this is the one I personally find most convincing.

 

[Taunta]

You don't have to be a celebrity or in the UK to get in trouble.

I'm not going to loose my job over trash talking on Xbox live.

Why stop at Xbox live? According to your logic, you should just be able to say whatever you what whenever you want to? Why not make rape jokes on social media sites?

Also I don't think your future boss would be impressed if he or she found out about your massive privilege problem and your desire to hurt other people. You're not some kind of revolutionary standing up for your right to make tasteless and inflammatory jokes in public that hurt other people. (Which is a load by the way. You don't have those rights.)

 

[Taunta]

I find it odd how a lot of people don't seem willing to acknowledge that, "hey, maybe colloquially using the words murder and torture (and whatever else) could be a trigger for someone, as they are both vile acts that can permanently fuck a person up on a deep level". I know people use those words often and out of the "proper" context (I see it enough). Yet I see a lot of arguments for rape being the only real no-no word. Why can't people just say, "hey, maybe people we should avoid using those words colloquially too, just for the sake of maybe not offending someone who's had a similarly traumatic experience with murder or torture as a rape victim might have had with rape". Just how I see it. I mean, if people would just agree to that, I think people would see a lot less resistance here, as less people would feel like they're being manipulated by the spooky "feminist agenda" or being arbitrarily limited. Plus, you get the bonus of, I dunno, not emotionally harming people who actually HAVE had traumatic experiences with torture and murder and such.

That point has already been made earlier in this thread. Whats-his-face just refuses to acknowledge it and still uses those words to deflect the issue.

 

[macfluffers]

Well, no, the two are not the same. One can argue that the vileness of the act of murder and that of rape is roughly equal (or you can say they're not, but that's a side issue), but the emotional aftermath of the latter is much more than murder, because murder victims aren't still around to be traumatized by the experience.

Yes, but does that mean that we can't use phrases like "I'm starving" or "I'm dying of thirst" because people who were severely neglected as children and nearly died due to hunger or dehydration could hear? Or what about "I felt strangled" or "I was suffocating" because there might be a victim of attempted murder via strangulation in the vicinity? Or "That was torture" because somebody you're talking to was actually tortured?

You can argue that rape is more horrific, has a longer fallout, or is more common, but the degree of the trauma doesn't change the underlying fact that nobody should be responsible for anybody's feelings other than their own.

I think it's wise to be polite, but I don't think we should make demands of anybody to change their speech to protect the emotional concerns of others.

 

[axlryder]

I find it odd how a lot of people don't seem willing to acknowledge that, "hey, maybe colloquially using the words murder and torture (and whatever else) could be a trigger for someone, as they are both vile acts that can permanently fuck a person up on a deep level". I know people use those words often and out of the "proper" context (I see it enough). Yet I see a lot of arguments for rape being the only real no-no word. Why can't people just say, "hey, maybe people we should avoid using those words colloquially too, just for the sake of maybe not offending someone who's had a similarly traumatic experience with murder or torture as a rape victim might have had with rape". Just how I see it. I mean, if people would just agree to that, I think people would see a lot less resistance here, as less people would feel like they're being manipulated by the spooky "feminist agenda" or being arbitrarily limited. Plus, you get the bonus of, I dunno, not emotionally harming people who actually HAVE had traumatic experiences with torture and murder and such.

That point has already been made earlier in this thread. Whats-his-face just refuses to acknowledge it and still uses those words to deflect the issue.

So other people have agreed to not use words like torture and murder out of the proper context or aggressively? I got about 6-7 pages in and hadn't seen that yet. If anything, I just saw resistance to the idea or people arguing "but rape is worse/special" or something. Enough resistance that I think it bears repeating anyhow.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

There are, of course, a number of other reasons why Rape Is A Special Kind Of Evil [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13109563260A17380100&page=0] but this is the one I personally find most convincing.

Speaking as someone who's family survived genocide, I'm gong to have to disagree that rape is something special. It's bad to do, don't get me wrong. However I'm not going to treat it worse than murder.

Why stop at Xbox live? According to your logic, you should just be able to say whatever you what whenever you want to? Why not make rape jokes on social media sites?

Because social media sites might have rules that prevent such things from being expressed? Otherwise, if the social media site doesn't have rules against it, then I would agree that the person can say what they want.

Also I don't think your future boss would be impressed if he or she found out about your massive privilege problem and your desire to hurt other people.

How would they know what I say on Xbox live?

EDIT:axlryder is making a good point.

 

[Taunta]

There are, of course, a number of other reasons why Rape Is A Special Kind Of Evil [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13109563260A17380100&page=0] but this is the one I personally find most convincing.

Speaking as someone who's family survived genocide, I'm gong to have to disagree that rape is something special. It's bad to do, don't get me wrong. However I'm not going to treat it worse than murder.

Why stop at Xbox live? According to your logic, you should just be able to say whatever you what whenever you want to? Why not make rape jokes on social media sites?

Because social media sites might have rules that prevent such things from being expressed? Otherwise, if the social media site doesn't have rules against it, then I would agree that the person can say what they want.

Also I don't think your future boss would be impressed if he or she found out about your massive privilege problem and your desire to hurt other people.

How would they know what I say on Xbox live?

I'm going to assume that you don't know some of the things that community pages post on Facebook. They really don't actually. You'll probably just get reported, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it.

Society has rules too, but you don't seem to care about those. You would think those would be more important than Facebook's rules.


About Axlryder's point: The article is not saying that rape is a special word. That just happens to be the topic of the day, because it's culturally relevant. Just because someone is suggesting that you shouldn't make rape jokes doesn't mean they also imply that it's okay to make other jokes. I don't know where that came from. It's not okay to make inflammatory jokes in public. Period. But the topic of today is rape.

 

[disappointed]

Thank you.

It's all a question of what sort of culture we want. Do we want it to be inclusive? If so then we should keep our behaviour civil and supportive. We are all strangers. It will be hard for us to get along with each other if we don't go out of our way to make it happen. Cheap, hateful, violent language is something we don't need.

Gaming should be better than this. When you're spending millions making a game, you shouldn't introduce an issue you know to be painful for many people without sanity checking your treatment of it with someone who better represents those people's experiences. The trouble is that gaming has made war and murder acceptable topics without ever doing these checks. It's set a poor precedent, a low bar that developers are reluctant to raise. Gaming should have better standards for itself, out of humanity, civility and self-respect.

 

[Imrix]

Yes, but does that mean that we can't use phrases like "I'm starving" or "I'm dying of thirst" because people who were severely neglected as children and nearly died due to hunger or dehydration could hear? Or what about "I felt strangled" or "I was suffocating" because there might be a victim of attempted murder via strangulation in the vicinity? Or "That was torture" because somebody you're talking to was actually tortured?

Again, I rank "I nearly suffered *insert horrible fate here*" as a less traumatising experience than "I actually suffered *insert horrible fate here*"

You can argue that rape is more horrific, has a longer fallout, or is more common, but the degree of the trauma doesn't change the underlying fact that nobody should be responsible for anybody's feelings other than their own.

Well, tough. We are responsible for the effect we have on those around us. Nobody lives in a social vacuum. If your words are hurtful to somebody else, then yes, that is your fault. It may be a minor enough hurt that it is forgivable without acknowledging, or a fair exchange for free speech, but it is still a hurt, and it shouldn't be taken for granted.

Speaking as someone who's family survived genocide, I'm gong to have to disagree that rape is something special. It's bad to do, don't get me wrong. However I'm not going to treat it worse than murder.

Really? I'm so sorry to read that. How recently? I wasn't aware such things had occurred since the Second World War.

 

[Entenzahn]

I disagree, I believe the word has been sanitised so that it isn't as offensive but it's root derivation is still the same. Still, we differ on this and that's not something we can argue. If you want to say it, fine, I don't advocate censorship but I advocate acting like an adult and this is where we seem to be having the issue.

My opinion is that an adult would have better things to do than to judge other people's use of "inappropriate vocabulary". If I feel that somebody is trying to offend me on purpose on the internet I walk away, ignore or mock them.

One person asks you to stop saying Fan, fine, ignore them. If the majority of people ask you to stop saying something, that's being socially conscious. Ignoring the wishes or requests of everyone around you because you feel it doesn't apply to you is what I would define as 'socially retarded' and it's how the argument is coming across.

Rape is, by a general consensus, an issue for a lot of people (certainly I'd guess a majority) so there are a number of people who would rather it not be used casually. In certain social contexts (privellaged people who've never encountered it I guess), it's likely acceptable to discuss it or, hell, probably even crack a joke. But to complete strangers, standard social norms say you don't make a joke out of something which, for them, could well be a traumatic issue. I'm not saying you can't, maybe not even that you shouldn't, but that you should consider the matter before blithely shouting you raped someone at that last match. It's just consideration for other people. It's not someone censoring you, it's being an adult, if your half as grown up as you think you are you'll hopefully see where I'm coming from with this.

See, that's what I take issue with. I brought up "Murder", "Torture" and "Castration". Is there a threshold that determines what makes a (contextually) inappropriate word or topic? When X people say that something is a no-go it counts? Where is that threshold? Is it "common sense"? That would be convenient, since it would imply that anybody who disagrees is an idiot.

I don't respect the numbers argument. IMO an issue isn't automatically more or less important when more or less people are affected by it. Practically speaking I know that there are hot-button issues that you have to be careful about since you run at a higher risk of causing a ruckus. At the same time people have to acknowledge that some words like "rape" and "******" are slowly becoming internet slang and are usually not intended to offend rape victims or homosexuals. Unless you stop this by force (which I would vehemently oppose) you will probably have to learn to deal with it and accept that words constantly change their meanings and usage.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

The article made me think about my own conduct in games for a mo'. I do say "rape" in private conversations(post game) where I know it couldn't possibly be frowned upon, but in public chat I'm as polite as they come...to the point that I get made fun of for it. Good sportsmanship was drummed into me early on.

This and similar recent topics on rape on this forum are proof: you're victims because of rape, while physical violence is just a normal part of life. Your wife and kids were murdered? Tough break champ, as long as its not sexual assault YOU'RE FINE.

Absolutely nobody that I am aware of is suggesting that. In fact in the reply I posted above your post here, I make a point to say that everyone's trigger words are to be respected; however, some words, like 'kill' are so general and multi-purpose in our language that it is less likely to cause severe offense than the much-more-specific word of 'rape'.

I mean if I use the word "We beat them", the word 'beat' is very general. It's less likely to trigger someone, though if it did, I would certainly owe them an apology and be mindful around them in the future. The word 'rape' however is not multi-purpose. It means sexual assault. It's a much more specific word that calls to a specific trauma, and moreover, it's unnecessary to everyday gamer parlance. It can be omitted without losing anything of value, and doing so make the community that little bit safer and more inclusive.

nobody is saying the word should be illegal to use. All that's being said is that using it causes hurt; you're welcome to ignore that hurt, as I am welcome to consider you to be an insensitive person, and I reserve the right to make it clear that insensitive people are not welcome.

So and I am gonna kill you is not as specific as I am gonna rape you? There are more people who saw someone getting killed than someone beeing raped. So why is rape so special? A criminal and violent act is still the same and the victim will again be as much traumatized as someone who was beeing raped.

I'm sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to communicate to me. If English is not your first language, I apologize. But from what it sounds, you are bringing up an objection I've addressed before, and I suggest reading through the thread. This has been covered.

Yeah English is not my native language and I am sorry if you dont get my point.

I am just saying that you can hurt alot more people by saying "I am gonna beat you" than by saying "I am gonna rape you" Tons of people where abused as a kid so that they are now traumtized. why is it ok to say that while the change to hurt someone with "I am gonna Rape you" is much much lower than the "I am gonna kill you" or the I am gonna beat you" talk?

Rape should not be handled as something special. You should openly talk about it, you should be able to show it in any form of media and you should also stirr controversy about this topic so people are getting more aware of this. Trying to keep it a special and very delicate will not help anyone. Not even the victim itself.

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the grounds that the author of the article is telling you otherwise. So your assertion is challenged even before I can get to it. It's not a question of whether or not you should respect that request; there's no question of that at all. As a member of this community I demand that you do.

As I've covered before, words like 'kill' and 'beat' are more general than rape. Kill is a multi-purpose word and has been for years. The same thing with 'beat'. Now, if you said "I'm going to beat you like I came home drunk from a bad day at work", that's a reference to a very specific sort of trauma and yes, I would say that its insensitive and shouldn't be said in mixed company, if at all.

The word 'rape' refers to a very specific trauma, and one that tends to cripple people in extreme ways. I am not a victim of rape, nor domestic abuse of any kind, so I cannot comment on which is 'worse'... I don't think such a thing can be quantified. I will say that speaking generally about killing and beating is less likely to trigger than the word 'rape'.

If you're still shaky on the concept of trigger language, I suggest to take some time to read up on it. There are a plethora of blogs about the subject. I would suggest Shakesville, though you really should start a thread maybe asking for some references; I'm sure there are some better read than I who could help you.

I don't want to get into a snarky back-and-forth with you. But, if those are truly your aims, you could stand to look at your own conduct and approach.

When was the last time someone was condescending to you and won you over? Or made demands and won you over? We're ambassadors for what we say, and if our general disposition is shitty it really shoots a big hole in the feet of our points. It's simply easier to dismiss an argument coming from a source that's conducting itself poorly.

The desired response is "good point", which is hard to achieve if the first thing you're evoking is a "fuck you" in the readers head.

edit - I think I probably quoted the wrong post of yours. Oh well.