The sarcasm/BDSM discussion thread!

[Geo Da Sponge]

*Snip*

*Snip*

Okay, okay, I hate to be the one who sits here and then casts down my judgement from my high-horse (I know Matthew94 has called me out on it before), but I think we just need a bit of clarification here. I think what Boudica originally meant was that she doesn't want men to have any power... Over her and/or in the bedroom. Which I think we can agree is a bit fairer, although that clarification is all important. Anyway, that's the impression I'm getting, which makes this all one hi-larious misunderstanding. At least I hope it is.

Am I right in saying that's what you originally meant, Boudica?

You are correct, but more importantly--what is your name from? I'm intrigued!

What's it from? Well, at risk of going off topic it's not really from anywhere. It's just the first three letters of my name followed by "Da Sponge". The three letter name part came from having to type it into arcade highscore tables, and the fact that it was back around 2000 when making your name sound like Neo was totally cool and original.

Where did the Da Sponge part come from...? No idea either, just a mad old friend who would talk about some character called Bobby Da Sponge, who seemed to exist only in his imagination.

snip

Actually, the quote was:

I like the fem-dom kind of BDSM roleplay, personally. I don't like the male dominant version because I dislike men having any power. My current boyfriend enjoys it, so I've little reason to care about changing lol.

50 Shades of Grey had BDSM in it to the same degree that A Serbian Film has sex in it--i.e. it's all wrong. The book itself is creepy, but not sexist.

So yeah, you can take something out of context to make it suit your position, that's not enough to support your assertion that what she expressly said was "Men shouldn't have any power in any aspect of our world ever."

If it was so simple then why did she fuck about for so long then ignore me. Notice how after I said I couldn't prove she didn't hate men, she refused to reply to me even thoughshe said she would (which makes her a liar).

Why not just elaborate from the outset, why fuck around for so long?

Also, people think it's ok for her to judge all men based on her having a few bad experiences? Talk about double standards ahoy!

Again, at the risk of turning this thread into pure drama it's not a good idea to yell at someone for not responding to your schedule.

Oh, and what double standard? Show me where someone has said that if a guy has been the victim of an abusive relationship with a woman it's their fault for feeling distrustful towards giving women power over them. There's a bit of a difference between saying that someone thinks all men are eeevil and saying that you wouldn't want to be tied to your bed by one. Not to be crass or anything, but for a start I doubt it would turn her on any more.

 

[Neonit]

this all ridiculousness could be solved by simply changing the original post and admitting that it was something that could be misinterpreted.

im surprised it didnt happen till this point.

and in current form this post could be terribly "misinterpreted" in a way, that could be considered strongly sexist.

also, i believe that if it would indeed be an "misinterpreted text", then it would be explained as such the very first time someone pointed it out, the fact that it wasnt, suggests in my opinion something else.

but here we enter the realm of assuming, and i have no intention of going further in.

as to the topic at hand, whatever happens between two consenting adults in their own bedroom and/or house, is their own business.

i didnt read 50 shades of gray, but from what i see it reminds me of all popular things, where people get mad at something that doesnt affect them. if you dont like something, ignore it.
im too old for getting mad at every next new boys-band, new fashion BS that will fade in a couple of months, or a book that is hated upon, until it is inevitably forgotten over the course of one year and im friggin 20. i saw things like these come by and go away many times.

 

[Seydaman]

As someone into BDSM, there's a broad spectrum. 50 shades is shit in terms of literary quality.

In regards to sexism, I'm personally into a female dominant. But I can swing either way. As long as both parties consent and desire what's happening, it's not sexist.

Edited spelling.

 

[Seydaman]

I really want to know.

I really want proof that I "hate men" ;D

Explain to me why you feel men shouldn't have any power. This is the exact thing that women have fought to end for themselves and you wish to take humanity back but just reversing the roles.

Why?

I don't think you are a feminist at all. No, you are not a feminist.

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women."

If you got your wish men and women would not be equal. Please, don't ever call yourself a feminist ever again.

Still waiting for an admission of error on your part or proof of your statement. You made a claim regarding myself at the start of the conversation. Once one of those occurs, I'll answer any question you have

Ok since I havent been involved with the rest of this conversation so theres no "history" can you tell ME why you dislike men having power? Its a curious line to take that you make a statement and then repeatedly refuse to defend it.

But since im asking nicely could you please tell me?

Since you asked nicely ;P

I've simply been abused too many times by men to want to allow them to have any more power over me. Like a child bitten by a dog, I guess. I let my current boyfriend have a little control in some ways--gently pushing my boundaries with me so I can work through my issues--but as a general rule, I like it to be all me, zero him. He's pretty much the most amazing person I've met and he totally gets it. So all is well!

And what if your aggressive treatment of men makes them hate women and act aggressively towards them? Do you see what I'm getting at here?
No one should be abusing anyone, regardless of gender. Just because men have been abusive and dickish to you, doesn?t mean that you can be abusive and dickish to other, unrelated men.

Yar, power imbalances on a non-consent-ual level are sexist. Abuse is bad, wether physical or mental, no one, of any gender, should have to face abuse.

 

[Sassafrass]

I'm not making it personal. She said if I admitted that I can't prove she hates men she would elaborate on her post.

I did my part, she is ignoring her responsibility. That makes her dishonest.

I know this is a late reply but if it's not personal, why have you helped people drag this shit out for a good 20 or so posts? Why have I heard rumours of you complaining about this user before?

If this isn't personal, all the evidence I've heard/seen is either wrong or I'm in an alternative reality.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

The Fifty Shades of Gray brand of BDSM is this kind of BDSM, you kind of have to read the book to properly get it but it is very much about reducing an otherwise independent(ish) woman to a slave/dog status. He follows her around, wants to beat her up, only wear the clothes he approves of, wear her hair a certain way, eat what he wants her to eat, sleep an approved number of hours, not look him in the eyes unless directed to and "punish" her if these demands are not met.

Yeah... that isn't real BDSM. That's just weird fucked up shit.

**snip**

OP, I think your issue is that the book in question is Sexist, but it is NOT real BDSM. It is the author's sick twisted fantasy about what BDSM is written with little to no research (outside, possibly, of Hentai, the only place I've seen that weird interpretation of BDSM).

So basically, BDSM isn't sexist - but "Fifty Shades of Gray" is, because it isn't BDSM, it's porn. (not that porn is inherently sexist - it isn't - but that particular type of porn where women are treated as dogs or - a popular Japanese theme, as 'toilets' - is extremely sexist)

Actual BDSM, from the BDSM community, generally is about trust. Or about feeling alive. And in proper BDSM, the Submissive actually has as much (if not more) control over the situation than the Dom does. Good BDSM is a dance - a cooperative act requiring both partners to play a role. Some members of the BDSM community continue playing outside the bedroom, others leave it there and return to a different (often more socially acceptable, although not always) relationship status outside the bedroom. For that matter, some BDSM relationships will actually switch up who plays Dom and who plays Sub.

Good BDSM is a game. Some people play all the time, some people only play sometimes, but it requires give and take. Both partners have equal power and control, even if one of them is playing at having none.

The story you mentioned is not good BDSM. Just like most BDSM pornography doesn't demonstrate good BDSM (although some does, usually depending on if it was made by members of the community, or just paid actors). And just like Hentai doesn't demonstrate good BDSM.

Oh, and in case anyone was wondering, I enjoy dabbling in BDSM. Not all the time, and certainly not outside the bedroom, but there are times when it's fun to put on my corset and be a Dominatrix for an evening. ^^

 

[Blunderboy]

snip

Actually, the quote was:

I like the fem-dom kind of BDSM roleplay, personally. I don't like the male dominant version because I dislike men having any power. My current boyfriend enjoys it, so I've little reason to care about changing lol.

50 Shades of Grey had BDSM in it to the same degree that A Serbian Film has sex in it--i.e. it's all wrong. The book itself is creepy, but not sexist.

So yeah, you can take something out of context to make it suit your position, that's not enough to support your assertion that what she expressly said was "Men shouldn't have any power in any aspect of our world ever."

If it was so simple then why did she fuck about for so long then ignore me. Notice how after I said I couldn't prove she didn't hate men, she refused to reply to me even thoughshe said she would (which makes her a liar).

Why not just elaborate from the outset, why fuck around for so long?

Also, people think it's ok for her to judge all men based on her having a few bad experiences? Talk about double standards ahoy!

Well, to be fair, I wouldn't exactly want to respond to you in this state either.

But yeah, I recall you saying you couldn't prove she hated men, but really that's undercutting the gist of the matter quite a bit. Thing is, you can't prove anything. Everything you have said up to this point has been one accusation after another, none of which have the proof you need to actually have a solid argument. At this point i'd honestly suggest walking away. I'm getting the sense that you're growing irritable and you're not really holding the high ground of this debate.

I made 1 accusation then asked for an elaboration on her original point. I recanted the accusation and she has pissed about in this thread then played a victim card. Once again you have no issue with her frankly terrible logic of "some men abused me, I'm going to judge all men"

So not only have you made things up you're trying to defend her strategy of basically trying to piss me off. I won't use the word we are all thinking of. Seems pretty messed up to me.

I reckon I'm holding the high ground fairly well. Also, I'm perfectly calm.

"Everything you have said up to this point has been one accusation after another, none of which have the proof you need to actually have a solid argument"

Sounds to me like that is you...

Actually you've made another in your last few posts

Also, people think it's ok for her to judge all men based on her having a few bad experiences? Talk about double standards ahoy!

There was also another before that, but I suppose that's being overly technical.

That accusation was right, she admitted it herself. It's hardly a point against me when I'm right.

Also, thanks for ignoring 90% of my post, it says a lot when people do that.

Actually it wasn't proven correct in the slightest when the statement it's based on was not correctly interpreted.

Since you asked nicely ;P

I've simply been abused too many times by men to want to allow them to have any more power over me. Like a child bitten by a dog, I guess. I let my current boyfriend have a little control in some ways--gently pushing my boundaries with me so I can work through my issues--but as a general rule, I like it to be all me, zero him. He's pretty much the most amazing person I've met and he totally gets it. So all is well!

She clearly refers to her sex life solely, and in context of the thread it makes sense. Giving the requested context that should be enough to satisfy you, yes?

As for not answering the next part: Well it was pretty much based on this part being correct (Which it wasn't) So there was no real need to answer it.

I'm right and you're twisting it. I said she was judging men based on a few of them. Look at her post, she is doing that.

Keep twisting it, I'll keep you straight.

Well now you're just being homophobic Matthew.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

Snip.

When she has a history of making derogatory statements about men, sexist behaviour, quoting things out of context, ignoring everything that proves her wrong, deflecting anything she can't answer without incriminating herself and generally behaving rather poorly... well, it's not particularly surprising that people will call her out on it.

Especially when she does exactly that in this very thread, then completely changes the statement when called on exactly how sexist it was.

If you want to see a double-standard, just look at her own post history.

Okay, let's have a look back at her post history. Tum-te-tum... Ahh! Here we go, "So I found this feminist site?", this ought to be juicy.

...

You, Sir, are a spectular hypocrite and several other things that I might get a warning for mentioning. Yeah, Boudica has a bad habit of sticking with one point when other people are trying to move the argument on and then running it into the ground, I'll grant you that. But when you say shit like this to her:

"Now, are you going to acknowledge what exactly you are doing when you dismiss it as roleplay, or are you just going to keep going with the insults?"

In the same thread as you saying this to her:

"Your mindboggling ignorance can only be attributed to willfully ignoring anything you can't refute. The girl who you've spent quite a lot of effort trashing and mocking with your insistence on her actions being mere pretense have been reading over my shoulder and her scorn is starting to turn into anger. The facts aren't changing and you seem incapable of grasping them. In the end, it all turns into delicious irony that the feminist turns out to be the lesser creature when compared to the girl who knelt and gave herself over to another.

Or perhaps I'm misjudging you. Perhaps you simply lack the strength and courage to do anything but pretend, and thus refuse to believe others are truly capable of doing it without pretending. Either way, it all ends in the same way. In pitying you."

I can't see her insulting you at all before that point, and then you spew that bile just because she disagrees with you? Your first post towards her was practically spitting in her face just because she has a different view of BDSM from you.

Take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_roleplay

See how it mentions BDSM under the heading of sexual roleplay? Yes, I know it's a wiki article and I'm not saying that it completely proves your point wrong, I'm just saying that she's not exactly alone in thinking that roleplay and BDSM go hand in hand. I just can't believe you got so amazingly defensive and aggressive over the fact that someone referred to BDSM as 'roleplay' or 'pretend', and that's coming from a submissive. It's just...

Christ, you get riled up easily. Especially over something that's so inherently open to personal interpretations, preferences and experiences as BDSM.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

I can bust out definitions too.

" Discrimination based on gender"

She was sexist. By definition

Not letting someone sexually dominate you is discrimination? Okay then. I'm assuming that you're a heterosexual male. If not, imagine you are. Now, would you let a guy do -Kinky thing that you are personaly into- to you? No? But you'd let a girl do it?

You sexist.

I just think it's hilarious that you keep trying to put what she said in as vague as possible terms in order to make it look sexist. Are you really saying that she's sexist because she no longer enjoys doing something that reminds her of an abusive relationship...?

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

Snip.

I very much doubt you are in any kind of position to judge what is and isn't an insult on that matter. Two decades worth of experience in the field does allow me to make judgments on wildly inaccurate claims pertaining to said field. Especially when she had been asked repeatedly to cease insulting those who actually do engage in D/s and BDSM.

Of course, this is yet more example of how only the convenient bits are spoken of and the inconvenient bits are ignored and desperately attempted to be buried under a flurry of posts.

Way to make an appeal to authority there. Because as we all know, BDSM isn't at all based on personal tastes and desires, and presenting your tastes as more 'legitimate' than others isn't smug at all.

Well are you going to highlight the inconvenient bits? I'll admit that I only browsed the thread, but all of her posts seemed pretty... Well, empty. That's not exactly a compliment, but I couldn't find any 'insults' from her that weren't based entirely on you disagreeing with how she interpreted something.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

I find the whole anti Twilight / anti Fifty Shade of Gray feminism thing to be sort of inherently anti feminist. It assumes that women for some reason can't make decisions for themselves or consent to things that may or may not be in their best interest to an outside observer. If you reversed the gender roles in these books and they were equally as popular among men, no one would question it or assume that it was "sending the wrong message."

Hey, some women like to be dominated. Some women like to dominate. Some women like to get hit (it's true, look it up). Some women like to hit. They're not victims in a consensual sexual relationship.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

I can bust out definitions too.

" Discrimination based on gender"

She was sexist. By definition

Not letting someone sexually dominate you is discrimination? Okay then. I'm assuming that you're a heterosexual male. If not, imagine you are. Now, would you let a guy do -Kinky thing that you are personaly into- to you? No? But you'd let a girl do it?

You sexist.

I just think it's hilarious that you keep trying to put what she said in as vague as possible terms in order to make it look sexist. Are you really saying that she's sexist because she no longer enjoys doing something that reminds her of an abusive relationship...?

You asked me a question and answered it yourself then called me a sexist, wow this is getting civil.

She still does it. She just lets woman dominate her and she dominates men (read the thread).

But anyway, if it was just sex then why didn't she correct me?

Umm... I was joking about you being a sexist. That was a joke. You can tell because it's an absolutely insane assertion.

Also italics.

And yes, I know she still does it in those situations. I'm just pointing out how absurd it is to call someone sexist over their sexual preferences. What's there to get? She was in an abusive relation with a man, so being in situations that remind her of that make her uncomfortable, at least that's the interpretation I got. Are you going to tell her she has to do the same stuff with all sexual partners, regardless of what she feels comfortable with? I think that's a bad idea, but you should ask Deviate. Apparently he's an expert on the subject.

And she did correct you, round about the time I came in and actually asked a civil question rather than just assuming the worst again and again, just like you are doing to me. Okay, that's not really fair, she could've clarified but she didn't. That probably makes her a bad Escapist user, and a bad debater. But creating a bad argument about sexism doesn't make her sexist, nor does it make you right.

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

Well this thread exploded! And I haven't got fifty million messages saying I'm a ****, which usually happens everytime I try to talk about real issues.

I'd say that's a win!

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

I like the fem-dom kind of BDSM roleplay, personally. I don't like the male dominant version because I dislike men having any power. My current boyfriend enjoys it, so I've little reason to care about changing lol.

50 Shades of Grey had BDSM in it to the same degree that A Serbian Film has sex in it--i.e. it's all wrong. The book itself is creepy, but not sexist.

I'd say that it was... It was largely about a guy treating a woman as a slave to his whims seems sexist to me. Especially considering the lack of consent being half of the authors thrill. It's both wrong and sexist.

I also want to make a comment about that first bit completely devoid of the concept you MAY have been joking, but There's about fifty other guys who jumped on that bandwagon.

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

Well this thread exploded! And I haven't got fifty million messages saying I'm a ****, which usually happens everytime I try to talk about real issues.

I'd say that's a win!

Wait, what? You got insulted? What did you do?

Also... why did you change your avatar? I miss the toast...

No, on Every thread I have made before this that wasn't to do with comics or games or my own sense of self loathing I usually get half a million quotes saying I'm an asshole for having an opinion, however, this thread hasn't blown up in my face yet. It does seem to have blown up in yours then moved into a vigourous debate between two other completly unrelated guys until one got banned.

Ace Rimmer, Come on! Spiderman Toast has been my avatar since I joined.

 

[Skullpanda]

Ah...Boudica and Deviate always make these threads for me...I've gotten to lurking for/in them, because I just know a fun little argument will crop up between either one of them and someone else. This one even had the bonus of 2 arguments! So much rage, so little time.

On topic: While I don't think that the 50 shades series is sexist, per say, I do think it is terribly written and should probably have received far less attention than they actually have. All they really are, from what I can tell, are a published version of terrible porn-fics that are found on the internet.

Though it has spawned fairly entertaining things from the internet. Want to hear part of this terrible book read in Morgan Freeman's voice? Here you go!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5rUqNP40wY&feature=g-user-u (not embedded because NSFW language)

 

[ItsAChiaotzu]

Well this thread exploded! And I haven't got fifty million messages saying I'm a ****, which usually happens everytime I try to talk about real issues.

I'd say that's a win!

Wait, what? You got insulted? What did you do?

Also... why did you change your avatar? I miss the toast...

You know what reading through this made me realise?

You are the guy from 50 Shades of Grey. That's kinda funny.

Anyway, back to being OT, or at least kind of. I dunno about anyone else but my penis doesn't give a shit about my ideologies. I could be the staunchest feminist on earth and it wouldn't control what my penis did whatsoever. Describing any kind of pornography as sexist kind of misses the point of pornography as far as I'm concerned because pornography and sex don't deal in the same circles as equality and rhetoric.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

Snip.

I very much doubt you are in any kind of position to judge what is and isn't an insult on that matter. Two decades worth of experience in the field does allow me to make judgments on wildly inaccurate claims pertaining to said field. Especially when she had been asked repeatedly to cease insulting those who actually do engage in D/s and BDSM.

Of course, this is yet more example of how only the convenient bits are spoken of and the inconvenient bits are ignored and desperately attempted to be buried under a flurry of posts.

Way to make an appeal to authority there. Because as we all know, BDSM isn't at all based on personal tastes and desires, and presenting your tastes as more 'legitimate' than others isn't smug at all.

Well are you going to highlight the inconvenient bits? I'll admit that I only browsed the thread, but all of her posts seemed pretty... Well, empty. That's not exactly a compliment, but I couldn't find any 'insults' from her that weren't based entirely on you disagreeing with how she interpreted something.

Disagreement is perfectly fine. Dismissing the emotional depth, sincerity and weight of the submissive's dedication when submitting to a dominant by calling it "roleplay" even after having been educated on it is very much offensive. That there are people who do "roleplay" BDSM or D/s in the bedroom is a certainty and I addressed it. That does not, in any shape way or form, excuse the offense of dismissing real BDSM and D/s as mere pretense and roleplay.

And no, BDSM is not based on personal tastes and desires alone. The definitions are old and they're firm. That posers and hobby amateurs start using the terms to describe themselves does not make their actions hold any kind of water when compared to the real thing.

Yes, I'm certainly smug and arrogant. I earned that, by learning the subject in very intimate detail, over time and through hard lessons.

You're right. Let's go ask what those definitions are.

From Wikipedia (I know, perfect source right?):

"BDSM is a preference and sometimes form of personal relationship centering around activities that are erotic but may not be sexual, and which may include the consensual use of restraint, intense sensory stimulation, and fantasy power role play."

Or Urban Dictionary (Another perfect source, of course. And I'm using the second definion given, but only because the first just shows what the acronym stands for):

"A physical, psychological and usually sexual power-role-play with consensual participants."

Annnnd Google:

"BDSM is a type of roleplay or lifestyle choice between two or more individuals who use their experiences of pain and power to create sexual tension, pleasure, and release."

Those are literally the first three defintions I can find that go beyond just saying what the initials stand for. Your definition that doesn't include roleplaying doesn't seem very firm to me now.

Now I'm not saying that what you do is roleplay, because I can see that would be rude. Not rude enough to deserve what you said to Boudica about it, but whatever. But I think it's just as rude to start saying that what other people do isn't 'real' BDSM just because it's not what you like.

Can...Can I follow you from thread to thread? You have a way of remaining civil throughout a debate. I like that.

Umm... Sure. I should warn you that I don't post much. You see...

I don't usually post on the Escapist. But when I do, I get involved in a really messed up and thread derailing argument.

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

I like the fem-dom kind of BDSM roleplay, personally. I don't like the male dominant version because I dislike men having any power. My current boyfriend enjoys it, so I've little reason to care about changing lol.

50 Shades of Grey had BDSM in it to the same degree that A Serbian Film has sex in it--i.e. it's all wrong. The book itself is creepy, but not sexist.

I'd say that it was... It was largely about a guy treating a woman as a slave to his whims seems sexist to me. Especially considering the lack of consent being half of the authors thrill. It's both wrong and sexist.

I also want to make a comment about that first bit completely devoid of the concept you MAY have been joking, but There's about fifty other guys who jumped on that bandwagon.

It's not sexist, it's just about one woman being degraded (partially) against her will. Kind of like how a movie with a black guy being beaten up isn't racist, it just has one example of something that could be racist in it. You get me? A little hard to explain.

Kind of... It's like circumstantially sexist? This guy would likely do this to a partner no matter what there gender (If he was bisexual) because he's a dick?

It's hard to analyse because the book is such trash.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

Ah...Boudica and Deviate always make these threads for me...I've gotten to lurking for/in them, because I just know a fun little argument will crop up between either one of them and someone else. This one even had the bonus of 2 arguments! So much rage, so little time.

On topic: While I don't think that the 50 shades series is sexist, per say, I do think it is terribly written and should probably have received far less attention than they actually have. All they really are, from what I can tell, are a published version of terrible porn-fics that are found on the internet.

Though it has spawned fairly entertaining things from the internet. Want to hear part of this terrible book read in Morgan Freeman's voice? Here you go!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5rUqNP40wY&feature=g-user-u (not embedded because NSFW language)

Thank you, thank you! We'll be here all week. Also, thanks for the Morgan Freeman link. I love collecting those videos.