The 'whats the point in marriage?' debate :)
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and mine as well. i'm marred and have a beautiful little girl. both are infinitely more difficult than anything i dealt with in my younger years but i am also infinitely more enriched by them than anything i amused myself with 10 years ago. but i'm also nearing 30.Marik2 said:
i suppose that kind of life isn't for everyone but i am endlessly thankful every day that it is for me.
I would have to say that outside of religion, marriage would be more for the benefit of the child than anything else. Possibly the stability would benefit the parents as well as the children. Both points can be totally blasted by having a bad marriage but in a good one I'd say those are why you'd do it.
The point of marriage is love kinda the final stage of love like level 85 in WoW you can't level anymore but you still play
Ultimately, marraige is just a contract to get dudes to stick around once the kiddies start popping out. Whatever it may be in the minds of the public now, that's it original fundamental purpose. It seems to serve a mostly fashion/social function these days, so have at it if you want.
captain underpants said:
You know, marriage has historically been a way of restricting female sexuality, and controlling those who have sexual access to women of stature. It has also been used politically for the securing of power bases. The concept of marriage as a symbol of love is a very recent invention.Odbarc said:
I find it curious that you see men as 'trapped' by this. Until recently it has been the norm that the male is the one to propose. This view of marriage as a female cage for men is one promoted by trashy modern comedy. Ironic really, considering that marriage and kids was the traditional trap for women, being forced into the home and out of work to be housewives. This stereotype of male entrapment is phenomenally sexist. It portrays men as immature, irresponsible, unwilling to go the distance and accept the weight that is raising and caring for a family. In the aforementioned popular media it ties in to the portrayal of men as just that, or as bumbling oafs for whom a wife is as much mother as partner. Is this really how men wish to be portrayed?
I know just as many women as I do men who've felt trapped by their marriages and ended them. I also know any number of people, neither of which feel trapped by their marriages. I don't think it's a fair perception.
As for marriage itself, I'm conflicted. On one hand I feel that with, in the US, a 50% divorce rate people are rushing for marriage in relationships that won't stand up to the work necessary to maintain them. My own parents have been married for over 30 years, to portray the flip side of that coin.
The conflict comes from my own distaste for the institution. I consider it to be a religious relic which has been adapted into secular society because we're just so damn used to it. The tax benefits and legal side are encouragement and honestly, I dislike how much emphasis is put on them. My current partner and I have no intention of marrying, though we expect to be involved for rather a long time.
Now's the time to inject a little bit of heat. I think that the Church should be leaping at gay marriage with open arms. The campaign is a request, not for civil union as a secular institution, but for -marriage-, the religious one. With so many people drifting away from traditional marriage, why would they not take every opportunity to embrace something which is an effort to return to it?
As far as I'm concerned, all logic and personal pursuits or beliefs aside, marriage has value in the grander scheme of things because at the end of the day no matter how advanced or modernized we become we still need to produce and raise offspring to carry our species forward. It's fine to be an advanced intellectual urbanite who decides they never want to have kids, but someone's gotta breed. And while a single parent can raise kids the best and most effective way to raise children has always been a mother/father partnership. They tend to be heavily scorned by teenagers and young adults alike online but there is a place in society for 'family values', when childrens needs get put ahead of me first needs.
I should also add, while some people see not needing marriage as a necessary tool to tie the not, as in you can love a person and stay with them all your life without some silly ceremony, this can also be flipped around that by not tieing that not you're always leaving yourself an 'out'. You're not legally tied together, so you can always leave at any time. Generally a guys logic may not necessarily work this way, but your partner may not always think the same.
I should also add, while some people see not needing marriage as a necessary tool to tie the not, as in you can love a person and stay with them all your life without some silly ceremony, this can also be flipped around that by not tieing that not you're always leaving yourself an 'out'. You're not legally tied together, so you can always leave at any time. Generally a guys logic may not necessarily work this way, but your partner may not always think the same.
You also have to point towards celebrity marriages, the reason I say so is that they do it for the very reasons that others do it, financial stability, conformity or to meet an expectancy. Which to me is quite sad, too many celebs have been in and out of marriage like a frame without a door which in effect makes a mockery of the entire idea of marriage. Expecially when some people are willing to go to extravagant extents to prove the point that they love thier partner, if you were prepared to bungie jump and land on a cruise ship to demonstrate your love or pay through your teeth to ensure your wedding day was the most memorable day of both your lives, why does it take a mere little arguement for you to suddenly split up.
Some people can't even live with thier own family without arguing and trying to make ammends for the sake of keeping everyone together, the thought of them starting thier own is almosy laughable.
I am of the thinking that the way in which you treat your mother and sisters is a representative of how you will treat your wife, so when I encountered a woman at uni who came in with bruises everyday and finally admitted to me that she was being hit by her husband (after we had become friendly enough to tell me of course, she doens't blurt it out to everyone), obviously I told her to leave the relationship, she didn't deserve that and he was a bastard. But still she wanted to ammend the relationship, why? Because she loved him. He on the other hand was determined to make it clear he didn't want her any more and even went as far as to bring his new playtoy blonde girlfriend home who stayed overnight and didn't feel uncomfortable staying at a home he shared with his wife...WHILE SHE WAS THERE AS WELL.
It makes me think, at what point do you say enough is enough and leave the relationship? And if you do, are you a hypocrite for telling others after that that they should get married? Bearing in mind that this doesn't happen to everyone, but it could just happen to you.
Some people can't even live with thier own family without arguing and trying to make ammends for the sake of keeping everyone together, the thought of them starting thier own is almosy laughable.
I am of the thinking that the way in which you treat your mother and sisters is a representative of how you will treat your wife, so when I encountered a woman at uni who came in with bruises everyday and finally admitted to me that she was being hit by her husband (after we had become friendly enough to tell me of course, she doens't blurt it out to everyone), obviously I told her to leave the relationship, she didn't deserve that and he was a bastard. But still she wanted to ammend the relationship, why? Because she loved him. He on the other hand was determined to make it clear he didn't want her any more and even went as far as to bring his new playtoy blonde girlfriend home who stayed overnight and didn't feel uncomfortable staying at a home he shared with his wife...WHILE SHE WAS THERE AS WELL.
It makes me think, at what point do you say enough is enough and leave the relationship? And if you do, are you a hypocrite for telling others after that that they should get married? Bearing in mind that this doesn't happen to everyone, but it could just happen to you.
I'm very much with you in the belief that family values are important and raising children is important, despite how some may feel that it doesn't interest them, but we need to reproduce to survive, we don't NEED to get married in order to survive and to be honest, if the concept of marriage never existed, I doubt it would crumble society as we know it today. If anything, people would be more honest with themselves, not determined to cheat thier partners if things go bottoms up and you as a human would feel more free about who you want to fall in love with without the restraints of marriage forcing you to stay with one individual.RandV80 said:
A child should know that they have a loving mother and father, but this can still be done without marriage, a child isn't going to feel somewhat secluded from society because thier parents aren't married, in fact, as long as his parents love each other, I hardly doubt it would bother them as such, I have cousins who have parents that aren't married but live together, they haven't had any issues growing up, if anything, they are doing better then I am :/ and they love thier parents like any child would.
I think its all okay to say that it's young adults that scorn marriage, but maybe that's because young adults are slipping away from the traditional perspective of thier elders, brought up in a new world to that of my parents and grandparents, I think far differently to the way they think and chances are my kids will be the same in the new world that they grow up in. There was a time that women couldn't work in offices, if it wasn't for a new way of thinking, women would still be housewives and verious other world changing events for the better. So is it really a bad thing?
My uncle has a girlfriend for 20 years now, they're not going to seperate any time soon.
My aunt however got married 3 months into dating someone.
two weeks later - BAM! Divorce.
Edit: Oh yeah, and now she has a new date, they are not getting married yet they live for a good couple of years together with 4 kids ATM.
So yeah, in my point of view marriage is evil and just ties you into unnecessary rules.
I mean, look at Wilson!
My aunt however got married 3 months into dating someone.
two weeks later - BAM! Divorce.
Edit: Oh yeah, and now she has a new date, they are not getting married yet they live for a good couple of years together with 4 kids ATM.
So yeah, in my point of view marriage is evil and just ties you into unnecessary rules.
I mean, look at Wilson!
Marraige is a legal definition to the not religious. That is all. If you don't want to get married, be registered as DeFacto and enjoy the many of the same legal, tax and other legislation.
Love, togetherness, all those types of things, can be done without marriage, as you say.
But if you get married to someone, it shows that you two are truly connected, and truly one. People are going to take your relationship more seriously if you say
"I married x!"
As opposed to
"I love x!"
I mean, marriage (this is going to sound super gay and corny, so forgive me) is a traditional bond, which shows how much a man and a woman (or another man) really love eachother.
While a lot of people may not see marriage as this bond, the majority of society will.
But if you get married to someone, it shows that you two are truly connected, and truly one. People are going to take your relationship more seriously if you say
"I married x!"
As opposed to
"I love x!"
I mean, marriage (this is going to sound super gay and corny, so forgive me) is a traditional bond, which shows how much a man and a woman (or another man) really love eachother.
While a lot of people may not see marriage as this bond, the majority of society will.
To be perfectly honest - I did not truly intend to get married.
My husband and I were together for three years before someone even brought up the marriage idea.
Mostly my family, because a few of the couples in my family have been married for 40-50 years, and still genuinely enjoy each others company. (Now that's impressive.)
He asked a lot of 'what-ifs' to me about it, and was afraid I'd start brow-beating him into marrying me. He was uneasy about it, and I assured him that if he didn't want to, it wouldn't change anything. We'd still live and be together. That it made no difference to me.He wanted to talk about it some more, so we sat down and actually talked about everything. We didn't just shack up for three months and call it love and get married. We talked about pros and cons, and also covered old ground: kids, his religious beliefs, etc. Also what he wanted out of 'marriage', and what I would want. We both came at marriage very logically on how it would effect our lives and if it was something we could handle, without trying to act like 'husbands' and 'wives'.
Basically, we were afraid our relationship would change, and little do people know, that's entirely dependent on you. Not the slip of paper signed. You can still be married, and legally be announced husband and wife, husband and husband, wife and wife, etc, but not have to fall into the stereotype. Your relationship can be just as meaningful, loving, and caring as it ever was.
But by then we already had a house together, had been living in each others company for a few years, financially stable, and childless (and fortunately still childless).
He asked the question in our fourth year after he had enough time to think about it on his own - and I simply answered yes.
We had an inexpensive Christian (he's a Christian, and I am not. I agreed to it, since it was important to him and his family) ceremony in our own backyard with fifteen guests, all family, no friends, no real photographers ; and a small reception afterwords with a grocery-store bought cake. So , it was more like a get-together with a woman in a white dress.
By mention of rings, we don't wear our rings. I basically use/used mine as a prop. I used it to symbolize our connection during the ceremony, and wear it out to family get-togethers, since they like seeing me wear it. He doesn't wear his because his work doesn't allow it.
Personally, I don't care much for the rings. I'm aware of my marriage, I'm not so stupid as to need a daily reminder. But I suppose it does have a romantic, whimsical charm to it, for some.
If marriage is not something you would enter into, whether religious, spiritually, romantically, or just for the sake of health insurance, then that's perfectly fine and I respect your right not to and hope you find someone with equal feelings that makes you happy, but some of these comments are just plain nasty towards those who have.
Point is, I love him, he loves me, he decided on his own to ask the question, I said yes, we married, and life is the same as it ever was. Except now I get better treatment at the optometrist.
My husband and I were together for three years before someone even brought up the marriage idea.
Mostly my family, because a few of the couples in my family have been married for 40-50 years, and still genuinely enjoy each others company. (Now that's impressive.)
He asked a lot of 'what-ifs' to me about it, and was afraid I'd start brow-beating him into marrying me. He was uneasy about it, and I assured him that if he didn't want to, it wouldn't change anything. We'd still live and be together. That it made no difference to me.He wanted to talk about it some more, so we sat down and actually talked about everything. We didn't just shack up for three months and call it love and get married. We talked about pros and cons, and also covered old ground: kids, his religious beliefs, etc. Also what he wanted out of 'marriage', and what I would want. We both came at marriage very logically on how it would effect our lives and if it was something we could handle, without trying to act like 'husbands' and 'wives'.
Basically, we were afraid our relationship would change, and little do people know, that's entirely dependent on you. Not the slip of paper signed. You can still be married, and legally be announced husband and wife, husband and husband, wife and wife, etc, but not have to fall into the stereotype. Your relationship can be just as meaningful, loving, and caring as it ever was.
But by then we already had a house together, had been living in each others company for a few years, financially stable, and childless (and fortunately still childless).
He asked the question in our fourth year after he had enough time to think about it on his own - and I simply answered yes.
We had an inexpensive Christian (he's a Christian, and I am not. I agreed to it, since it was important to him and his family) ceremony in our own backyard with fifteen guests, all family, no friends, no real photographers ; and a small reception afterwords with a grocery-store bought cake. So , it was more like a get-together with a woman in a white dress.
By mention of rings, we don't wear our rings. I basically use/used mine as a prop. I used it to symbolize our connection during the ceremony, and wear it out to family get-togethers, since they like seeing me wear it. He doesn't wear his because his work doesn't allow it.
Personally, I don't care much for the rings. I'm aware of my marriage, I'm not so stupid as to need a daily reminder. But I suppose it does have a romantic, whimsical charm to it, for some.
If marriage is not something you would enter into, whether religious, spiritually, romantically, or just for the sake of health insurance, then that's perfectly fine and I respect your right not to and hope you find someone with equal feelings that makes you happy, but some of these comments are just plain nasty towards those who have.
Point is, I love him, he loves me, he decided on his own to ask the question, I said yes, we married, and life is the same as it ever was. Except now I get better treatment at the optometrist.
I always get a bit antsy and nervous when entering a debate about this. Marriage makes sense to procreate and to keep down STDs through only having one partner, making it somehow official you only have one partner, announcing to everyone you only have one. You are in love? Great! Im sure youw ant your family and everyone you've ever cared about to know just HOW in love you are. You want to promise you'll be there for ever AND you want everyone to witness it.
It may be religious, but its to no specific religion, so it makes me think people just want an important organization or governing body (like a church) to put a stamp on it to make it official. If you live in a christian country, like I do, then the christian church is normally the one running the weddings. They are prominent in the culture, and their approval on things is considered to have some heft to it.
From an evolutionary standpoint, stopping the spread of disease and trying to help procreate. Sure you can do that with just being together, but announcing it, getting a plaque or paper or bill or WHATEVER to say you went through with it. Well humans have never been good with just DOING something. A show has to be made of it. We like feeling we've made it important. ^_^
It may be religious, but its to no specific religion, so it makes me think people just want an important organization or governing body (like a church) to put a stamp on it to make it official. If you live in a christian country, like I do, then the christian church is normally the one running the weddings. They are prominent in the culture, and their approval on things is considered to have some heft to it.
From an evolutionary standpoint, stopping the spread of disease and trying to help procreate. Sure you can do that with just being together, but announcing it, getting a plaque or paper or bill or WHATEVER to say you went through with it. Well humans have never been good with just DOING something. A show has to be made of it. We like feeling we've made it important. ^_^
Well since this has turned into a "defend your opinion" thread, I guess should add to my previous post.
I'd tend to agree wit the rather unnecessarily pejorative statement that:
However, nearing 24, I feel as if I should defend my own point of view lest my posts are seen through the same colored spectacles.
I personally think marriage is a variance of three things:
1. A legal, binding force one is appointed to by the State that recognizes you as a married person lawfully.
2. An idealistic endgame where one sees themselves at the "peak of love" that ignores reality and the above point number 1.
3. When faced with the sudden or planned appearance of offspring, marriage attempts represent the foundation of a family.
My mother has twelve siblings (go Irish-Catholics) and I've been passively observing their lives since I've been trapped in this mortal coil.
Now, my experience thus far:
At 3 years of age, I was kicked out of my room for a year while my recently-separated uncle moved in with us in our tiny rental because his psychotic wife cheated on another man and mistook my uncle's love for infidelity. Amazingly (in reality: unsurprisingly) she was able to convince a judge that he was an adulterer and she took him for all he had: all the money, the car, the kid, the house and the business. She still collects alimony to this day and my uncle hasn't recovered financially or emotionally very substantially.
At around 10 years old, one of my Aunt's husband died very suddenly. He was a great person and this really messed her, and her kids, up. She ended up marrying another man about 5 years later and having a child with him, totaling 3. The first 2 children definitely hated this guy and the rest of the family didn't like him much either. He drinks too much, he's creepy as all fuck, doesn't seem very responsible (especially financially), isn't gifted with a great intellect, and acts like the proverbial "Alpha male" all of the time - even at arguably the most inappropriate of times, such as a funeral. But he brought in some dough and (seemingly) treated my aunt well. Skip ahead to 2009 and he's divorcing her: taking no responsibility of the kid he had with her, denying her (and the kids) any kind of financial assistance, letting her lose her house, car, kids, etc. He does this because he knows how she is - she's dependent on him for almost everything. Luckily, those of us in the family who know how to treat loved ones have been helping her out, but she's not through with it all yet. There's still a long way to go.
I'm going to stop there, although there are about seven or eight other relatives I can give examples of how marriage was a terrible, damaging and ultimately costly idea for them; each of them unique ranging from attempted suicide to alcoholism, but I figure most people have stopped reading a long time ago.
Now, to show I'm of a balanced mind, I could give examples of fairly decent to good marriages - my parents being an example. And I shall, should anyone query.
However, in all of my years of passively observing to being involved in the "clean-up" or "pre-fallout" periods, I have come to realize that the negatives outweigh the positives significantly. Especially if you're male. Sorry, but that's the truth of the matter. Granted, most men who abandon their kids and vows are the reason why men are required to pay alimony and/or lose custody the majority of the time, but the fact that society and the courts have seen that an okay reason to paint with a broad brush is a significant deterrent for me.
I've seen people fall apart because of divorce, all while prior saying "OMG isn't life so grand? I'm so in love! This is wonderful!"
I even have a good percentage of my High School class that is married already and I can't help but think: "idiots". Don't get me wrong, I don't want their marriages to fail. I've seen the amount of pain that causes. But when you're young, inexperienced or both, you tend to make decisions without looking ahead and looking at all possible scenarios. Or even a fraction of all possible scenarios. Or even just one alternative scenario.
In addition, people have a varying degree of what they define "love" as - and if we look at statistics, we can probably conclude that their idea is a shallow one.
Based on my experience, I definitely see marriage as a very risky, and very dangerous, choice. It can destroy your life should it go wrong and it's a nightmare to recover from - akin to getting your identity stolen, and then exponentially increased. It's like playing Russian Roulette with 3 to 4 of the 6 chambers loaded.
I should add that for those of you who have found a good, or great, partner and have married them - good on you. I am very serious about that. If you have found someone you can trust, have faith in, and be wholly honest to, that is very awesome because it is very rare. I do truly hope for the best for those who have made the decision to marry, whether ignorantly or maturely, because either way, if it fails, it's the same for everyone - it is by no means a painless process, and by no means is it short.
I'd tend to agree wit the rather unnecessarily pejorative statement that:
That's probably very true. Although, instead of the "boinking multiple partners" motivation behind it, I suspect it's more "angsty, teenage related smugness" motivation that begets some of the pubescent flock.
However, nearing 24, I feel as if I should defend my own point of view lest my posts are seen through the same colored spectacles.
I personally think marriage is a variance of three things:
1. A legal, binding force one is appointed to by the State that recognizes you as a married person lawfully.
2. An idealistic endgame where one sees themselves at the "peak of love" that ignores reality and the above point number 1.
3. When faced with the sudden or planned appearance of offspring, marriage attempts represent the foundation of a family.
My mother has twelve siblings (go Irish-Catholics) and I've been passively observing their lives since I've been trapped in this mortal coil.
Now, my experience thus far:
At 3 years of age, I was kicked out of my room for a year while my recently-separated uncle moved in with us in our tiny rental because his psychotic wife cheated on another man and mistook my uncle's love for infidelity. Amazingly (in reality: unsurprisingly) she was able to convince a judge that he was an adulterer and she took him for all he had: all the money, the car, the kid, the house and the business. She still collects alimony to this day and my uncle hasn't recovered financially or emotionally very substantially.
At around 10 years old, one of my Aunt's husband died very suddenly. He was a great person and this really messed her, and her kids, up. She ended up marrying another man about 5 years later and having a child with him, totaling 3. The first 2 children definitely hated this guy and the rest of the family didn't like him much either. He drinks too much, he's creepy as all fuck, doesn't seem very responsible (especially financially), isn't gifted with a great intellect, and acts like the proverbial "Alpha male" all of the time - even at arguably the most inappropriate of times, such as a funeral. But he brought in some dough and (seemingly) treated my aunt well. Skip ahead to 2009 and he's divorcing her: taking no responsibility of the kid he had with her, denying her (and the kids) any kind of financial assistance, letting her lose her house, car, kids, etc. He does this because he knows how she is - she's dependent on him for almost everything. Luckily, those of us in the family who know how to treat loved ones have been helping her out, but she's not through with it all yet. There's still a long way to go.
I'm going to stop there, although there are about seven or eight other relatives I can give examples of how marriage was a terrible, damaging and ultimately costly idea for them; each of them unique ranging from attempted suicide to alcoholism, but I figure most people have stopped reading a long time ago.
Now, to show I'm of a balanced mind, I could give examples of fairly decent to good marriages - my parents being an example. And I shall, should anyone query.
However, in all of my years of passively observing to being involved in the "clean-up" or "pre-fallout" periods, I have come to realize that the negatives outweigh the positives significantly. Especially if you're male. Sorry, but that's the truth of the matter. Granted, most men who abandon their kids and vows are the reason why men are required to pay alimony and/or lose custody the majority of the time, but the fact that society and the courts have seen that an okay reason to paint with a broad brush is a significant deterrent for me.
I've seen people fall apart because of divorce, all while prior saying "OMG isn't life so grand? I'm so in love! This is wonderful!"
I even have a good percentage of my High School class that is married already and I can't help but think: "idiots". Don't get me wrong, I don't want their marriages to fail. I've seen the amount of pain that causes. But when you're young, inexperienced or both, you tend to make decisions without looking ahead and looking at all possible scenarios. Or even a fraction of all possible scenarios. Or even just one alternative scenario.
In addition, people have a varying degree of what they define "love" as - and if we look at statistics, we can probably conclude that their idea is a shallow one.
Based on my experience, I definitely see marriage as a very risky, and very dangerous, choice. It can destroy your life should it go wrong and it's a nightmare to recover from - akin to getting your identity stolen, and then exponentially increased. It's like playing Russian Roulette with 3 to 4 of the 6 chambers loaded.
I should add that for those of you who have found a good, or great, partner and have married them - good on you. I am very serious about that. If you have found someone you can trust, have faith in, and be wholly honest to, that is very awesome because it is very rare. I do truly hope for the best for those who have made the decision to marry, whether ignorantly or maturely, because either way, if it fails, it's the same for everyone - it is by no means a painless process, and by no means is it short.