This is Why Criticizing Anita Sarkheesian is Irrelevant and Pointless

TomPreston

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The_Scrivener said:
http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/52673540142/twitter-vs-female-protagonists-in-video-games

She can pretty much film herself juggling fruit in her basement and as long as the title of her video touches on how much sexism there is in the culture, then she has a legitimate point. I don't want to imply that criticism of her points/videos is invalid or unwelcome on all accounts, but breaking down her style of delivery sort of strikes me as imprudent and short-sighted, like trying to find grammatical errors in Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream Speech."
You know, when someone points out an obvious sexist issue and then is met with attacks of actual sexism "just because" you do realize that there is a problem there, right? Gaming hasn't grown up at all and sexism against women is extraordinarily prevalent. This is not a fantasy, it's a fact.

Had anyone else pointed out her same point, no one would've batted an eye. But because she's one of those "evil feminists" suddenly she's being hit with tons and tons of real life sexism and hate speech.

I know people don't like Anita, but the way people react around her anytime she so much as twitches a finger is hilariously stupid. Grow up and realize that YES, there are problems in the games industry and with a lot of gamers. It's OK to admit it. No one is gonna take your previous games away from you. You can still like something while admitting there's a problem. These things can co-exist. We don't need these sexist knee-jerk reactions every time she points out the painfully obvious.
 

Wyvern65

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Uhura said:
Wyvern65 said:
So no proof then.
You clearly have little interest in engaging me in an actual discussion, which is certainly your right.

I will point out for the record that you are being more than a touch disingenuous.

Whether or not Anita trolled 4chan is unprovable. Quite possibly it's an evil character smear put out by her ideological opponents to discredit her.

Whether or not she trolled the #E3 and #XBoxOne hashtags yesterday is hardly a matter of conjecture or speculation. She did so quite publicly. The fact that it mirrors the 4chan story is interesting, but perhaps coincidental.

Either she's too naive to understand how social media works - something I refuse to accept given both her educational speciality and her clear intelligence - or she knows throwing chum in the water attracts sharks and is quite sanguine about taking advantage of it.

In my eyes that makes her an opportunist. Perhaps in your eyes that makes her a hero. [Or should that be heroine? Is that too gendered?]

I wasn't being the least sarcastic when I said feminism deserves better than that.
 

Atmos Duality

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Smeatza said:
Since when did apathy or ignorance decisively show privilege or entitlement?
Ever since the internet learned of that word's existence last year.
"Entitlement" has been cropping up as a generic "Catch-all" pseudo-insult due to its popularized negative connotation.

It's being misused. A lot. Like in those twitter comments.

While most of those comments are negative, dismissive, hateful and some downright misogynistic, not a single one of them is actually "entitled".

And for those of you ready to defend the misuse of the word here keep in mind:
1) Disagreement with Anita does not equate to misogyny. And even if that were magicked into being true...
2) Misogyny itself does not equate to "male entitlement". Misogyny literally just means "hatred of women".

(While unlikely, a woman can in fact be misogynistic. Therefore, "male entitlement" is not automatically implied, since said woman could be indifferent, favorable, or even hateful of men as well.)

I couldn't even get past the first page of this topic's responses without seeing its misuse.

Or are we just taking advantage of people less educated/intelligent/compassionate(lol) than ourselves?
Given the general ignorance on display, and the fact that the topic is trying to excuse Sarkeessian's work from criticism because "assholes exist" (*glares at topic title*), I'm guessing you're correct here.
 

Uhura

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Wyvern65 said:
I will point out for the record that you are being more than a touch disingenuous.
There is nothing disingenuous in pointing out that people who spread the 4chan rumor do not actually have any proof that she did any trolling. Look, you have joined the forums only a month ago and I'm not sure if you have followed the Anita discussion before you joined, but the 4chan rumor is one the most common things people bring up when they want to attack Anita or dismiss the abuse she received. The argument is always "she had it coming, she trolled 4chan", and those posts are most of the time followed by other comments about how fucking stupid Sarkeesian is for trolling 4chan.

There is no proof that she trolled 4chan.
People are spreading rumors to legitimize or downplay the abuse Sarkeesian received.
That's disingenuous.

If spreading unsubstantiated rumors about a person doesn't bother you, then I don't know what else to say.

Wyvern65 said:
Whether or not she trolled the #E3 and #XBoxOne hashtags yesterday is hardly a matter of conjecture or speculation. She did so quite publicly. The fact that it mirrors the 4chan story is interesting, but perhaps coincidental.

Either she's too naive to understand how social media works - something I refuse to accept given both her educational speciality and her clear intelligence - or she knows throwing chum in the water attracts sharks and is quite sanguine about taking advantage of it.
Trolled? Really? Since the Xbox One reveal in May, people have been bashing Xbox and Microsoft for their anti-consumer business practices, for the design of the console, for the name of the console and for whatever else they can think of. It's been one of the most popular punching bags on these forums and pretty much on any other gaming site for weeks. Posting a negative comment about Xbox One is not automatically trolling. Or do you think any criticism aimed at Xbox One is automatically trolling?

Should she just stop using her social media sites? Is it automatically trolling if she posts something on her twitter? Help me out here.

Wyvern65 said:
In my eyes that makes her an opportunist. Perhaps in your eyes that makes her a hero. [Or should that be heroine? Is that too gendered?]

I wasn't being the least sarcastic when I said feminism deserves better than that.
A hero? Oh come on.
 

Schadrach

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Vrex360 said:
The man's love of a woman, determination to protect her and avenge her when she dies is not Sarkeesian's issue, her issue is when, in the form of story telling, that becomes the only role the female lead has and never has a role or agency beyond that. It makes her not really a character or even an active part in the story as much as she is just an extension of the main character. This in turn doesn't create a particularly relatable character for female audiences and certainly not a role model to aspire to. Women want to actually be participants in a story, not the motivational device for someone else's story.
No, this is what somewhat more reasonable people think her issue should be, when looking at it through a set of blinder that ignores what she actually says. A good example: Quick show of hands, who hear would suggest that Angel has no agency within Borderlands? Who hear would claim that women with in the series lack characterization or agency in general?

Now, who hear wants to bet that Anita will complain about Moxxi at some point before it's all over, since she's already complained about Angel?

She too often makes complaints about things that sound kind of true in the most technical sense possible (read: technically not quite lying) so long as you aren't actually familiar with the work in question.

Xanex said:
She was even called on it in a CNN interview and she couldn't even respond to the reporter.
I want a link to this. It would be handy for my pile of links to reference on teh internets.

Legion said:
Scummy reponses from scummy people (the twitter trolls), but it's pretty tiresome how she pretends its because she is a woman criticising games, rather than an issue people have with her specifically as an individual. She has a persecution complex of an almost astounding degree, or else she is just a very clever and manipulative person.
I would guess the latter. Especially given how she's managed to turn "I baited 4chan" into essentially professional victimhood.

Legion said:
People go onto twitter and tell celebrities that they wish that their kids would get cancer and other nasty things, it doesn't "prove" anything at all. Except that anonymity causes people to act nastily, which most of us have known for years.
Welcome to the internet's greatest GIFT. You know, the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory (also known as the online dis-inhibition effect, though even researchers sometimes refer to it as GIFT).

Legion said:
She is completely blinkered by sexism and is incapable of looking at anything beyond it.
She has no reason to. Sexism is what the target audience wants to see.
 

The-Traveling-Bard

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Schadrach said:
Vrex360 said:
The man's love of a woman, determination to protect her and avenge her when she dies is not Sarkeesian's issue, her issue is when, in the form of story telling, that becomes the only role the female lead has and never has a role or agency beyond that. It makes her not really a character or even an active part in the story as much as she is just an extension of the main character. This in turn doesn't create a particularly relatable character for female audiences and certainly not a role model to aspire to. Women want to actually be participants in a story, not the motivational device for someone else's story.
No, this is what somewhat more reasonable people think her issue should be, when looking at it through a set of blinder that ignores what she actually says. A good example: Quick show of hands, who hear would suggest that Angel has no agency within Borderlands? Who hear would claim that women with in the series lack characterization or agency in general?

Now, who hear wants to bet that Anita will complain about Moxxi at some point before it's all over, since she's already complained about Angel?

She too often makes complaints about things that sound kind of true in the most technical sense possible (read: technically not quite lying) so long as you aren't actually familiar with the work in question.

Xanex said:
She was even called on it in a CNN interview and she couldn't even respond to the reporter.
I want a link to this. It would be handy for my pile of links to reference on teh internets.

Legion said:
Scummy reponses from scummy people (the twitter trolls), but it's pretty tiresome how she pretends its because she is a woman criticising games, rather than an issue people have with her specifically as an individual. She has a persecution complex of an almost astounding degree, or else she is just a very clever and manipulative person.
I would guess the latter. Especially given how she's managed to turn "I baited 4chan" into essentially professional victimhood.

Legion said:
People go onto twitter and tell celebrities that they wish that their kids would get cancer and other nasty things, it doesn't "prove" anything at all. Except that anonymity causes people to act nastily, which most of us have known for years.
Welcome to the internet's greatest GIFT. You know, the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory (also known as the online dis-inhibition effect, though even researchers sometimes refer to it as GIFT).

Legion said:
She is completely blinkered by sexism and is incapable of looking at anything beyond it.
She has no reason to. Sexism is what the target audience wants to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEWIefam53E

Here's a link it's the ONLY video I could find of her on CNN news.
Her facial expression is at 5:20
 

The-Traveling-Bard

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Uhura said:
Wyvern65 said:
I will point out for the record that you are being more than a touch disingenuous.
There is nothing disingenuous in pointing out that people who spread the 4chan rumor do not actually have any proof that she did any trolling. Look, you have joined the forums only a month ago and I'm not sure if you have followed the Anita discussion before you joined, but the 4chan rumor is one the most common things people bring up when they want to attack Anita or dismiss the abuse she received. The argument is always "she had it coming, she trolled 4chan", and those posts are most of the time followed by other comments about how fucking stupid Sarkeesian is for trolling 4chan.

There is no proof that she trolled 4chan.
People are spreading rumors to legitimize or downplay the abuse Sarkeesian received.
That's disingenuous.

If spreading unsubstantiated rumors about a person doesn't bother you, then I don't know what else to say.

Wyvern65 said:
Whether or not she trolled the #E3 and #XBoxOne hashtags yesterday is hardly a matter of conjecture or speculation. She did so quite publicly. The fact that it mirrors the 4chan story is interesting, but perhaps coincidental.

Either she's too naive to understand how social media works - something I refuse to accept given both her educational speciality and her clear intelligence - or she knows throwing chum in the water attracts sharks and is quite sanguine about taking advantage of it.
Trolled? Really? Since the Xbox One reveal in May, people have been bashing Xbox and Microsoft for their anti-consumer business practices, for the design of the console, for the name of the console and for whatever else they can think of. It's been one of the most popular punching bags on these forums and pretty much on any other gaming site for weeks. Posting a negative comment about Xbox One is not automatically trolling. Or do you think any criticism aimed at Xbox One is automatically trolling?

Should she just stop using her social media sites? Is it automatically trolling if she posts something on her twitter? Help me out here.

Wyvern65 said:
In my eyes that makes her an opportunist. Perhaps in your eyes that makes her a hero. [Or should that be heroine? Is that too gendered?]

I wasn't being the least sarcastic when I said feminism deserves better than that.
A hero? Oh come on.
I am going to double post, because I am going to LOL after you watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEWIefam53E

She clearly is trolling just watcher facial expression at 5:20.
IF you ever deny it now after this point... well yeah.
 

Uhura

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@The-Taveling-Bard

Seriously, a facial expression? That's all you got?
 

Wyvern65

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Uhura said:
There is no proof that she trolled 4chan.
People are spreading rumors to legitimize or downplay the abuse Sarkeesian received.
That's disingenuous.
Except I never made that argument. I don't think the abuse she's received is in any way excusable. I went out of my way in my second post to categorize it as vile because I realized I failed to do so sufficiently in my first post. I just assumed that everyone already agreed that it was. I seem to be naive in that regard.

Obviously I can't speak to what happened here before I arrived. You're attributing malice where there is none.

If spreading unsubstantiated rumors about a person doesn't bother you, then I don't know what else to say.
Again, you're characterizing my motivations and without bothering to check what they are. I have no problem admitting to ignorance. I have no problem with being proven wrong. It happens with tedious frequency.

I accepted that graphic, which I had seen in an earlier thread, uncritically. I'd thank you for pointing it out to me and making me examine it, but I suspect you'd read it as either being condescending or patronizing.

Posting a negative comment about Xbox One is not automatically trolling. Or do you think any criticism aimed at Xbox One is automatically trolling?
Of course, that's exactly what I said. Stop doing that, please.

Anita did not 'just' post an innocent criticism of Xbox One. [And I'd say she was criticizing the Microsoft press conference, not the console itself, but I suppose it could be read either way.]

She is a high profile feminist, whose views are highly divisive within the gaming community. She posted a pointed criticism about lack of gender representation to two high-profile twitter feeds. She then collected the inevitable outrage, removed all context from it, and publicized it. I believe that those actions say something about her character. You can mischaracterize my argument all you like but it's fairly straightforward.

Should she just stop using her social media sites? Is it automatically trolling if she posts something on her twitter? Help me out here.
Yes, that's clearly the argument I was making.

She is not nearly as much of an ingenue as you are portraying her as. Frankly, I think you're insulting her clear media savvy by even pretending she could possibly fail to know precisely how her comments would be received.

I have a modicum of respect for your intelligence. It would be nice if you displayed a modicum for mine, and either moved beyond Debate 101 type tactics or simply consigned me to the dustbin of the unsavable.
 

Brown_Coat117

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Look at the way she relentlessly criticized Mattie Ross in her True Grit vid. She says that she wants stronger women in media and yet she complains when a character is too badass. She claims to be against gender stereotypes then complains when female characters don't display more traditionally female traits while adopting more traditionally male traits. There is no winning with her, she is a professional victim and the last person that we need being the main voice on gender representation in any media.
 

invadergir

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Brown_Coat117 said:
Look at the way she relentlessly criticized Mattie Ross in her True Grit vid. She says that she wants stronger women in media and yet she complains when a character is too badass. She claims to be against gender stereotypes then complains when female characters don't display more traditionally female traits while adopting more traditionally male traits. There is no winning with her, she is a professional victim and the last person that we need being the main voice on gender representation in any media.
She actually complained about that performance? Does anyone have a link? I always thought Hailee Steinfeld's performance was one of the best that any child actor has put in regardless of gender. In fact, I hadn't even considered her gender because Mattie was an amazing protagonist.
 

Vigormortis

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Does anyone else find it extremely ironic that Ms. Sarkheesians words bemoan the disgusting, "misogynistic" use of the damsel-in-distress trope in gaming, while her actions attempt to paint herself as one?

I know I do.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Frankly, I can't stand the woman.

I am all for talking about, and hopefully solving, many of the issues facing the gaming industry today; including sexism. However, Anita's brand of inflammatory sensationalism is NOT the way to go about it.

She's more harmful to "the cause" than she is helpful.
 

Little Gray

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Vigormortis said:
Does anyone else find it extremely ironic that Ms. Sarkheesians words bemoan the disgusting, "misogynistic" use of the damsel-in-distress trope in gaming, while her actions attempt to paint herself as one?

I know I do.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Frankly, I can't stand the woman.

I am all for talking about, and hopefully solving, many of the issues facing the gaming industry today; including sexism. However, Anita's brand of inflammatory sensationalism is NOT the way to go about it.

She's more harmful to "the cause" than she is helpful.
I dont think its fair to say she is huring "the cause." Regardless of if you agree with her methods or not you cant deny that she is dam good at pointing out all of the sexism in the gaming community. Yes she purposely draws their attention to her but from what I have seen it generally just reinforces her points.
 

generals3

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maddawg IAJI said:
I'm calling bullshit on that one mate, largely because there is evidence that video games does have an effect on attitudes, but also because what you're arguing goes against EVERYTHING video gamers have been doing for the past 5 years.

Video Games are an art form and like any other art form, they're required to effect the observer in some way and evoke emotion and thought. That is what art is, they effect personalities and ways of thinking. What you're defending isn't art. What you're defending is just a hobby and nothing more.

Do I agree with Anita on all of her arguments? Of course not, but I do recognize that there is a problem within the industry regarding the place of Female characters and you'd be blind not to realize that hardcore gaming is a male dominated thing. But after what you just said, you have the audacity to call me the traitor for agreeing on a few points?

That is something that a lot of people aren't realizing here. You can like something and still recognize its flaws and work to fix those flaws.
First: As i would tell anyone: citation needed.

Secondly: There is a big difference between evoking emotions and thoughts and affecting personality and way of thinking. How many people got into the gangster lifestyle after playing GTA? I don't think many did. And since most people play games to have FUN and not gain a new perspective on the world I'd say the effect on people's personality and way of thinking is likely to be minimal and also ambiguous (as Anita has clearly shown everything can be interpreted in different ways, heck I still don't see how someone can interpret tropes like she does).

Yes you can recognize flaws. But you can't go start claiming that these "flaws" have a negative effect on people in real life without any citation.

I don't want game devs and gamers to be guilt tripped based on empty propaganda. Let me quote a key phrase she said:
"Given the reality of that larger cultural context, it should go without saying that it?s dangerously irresponsible to be creating games in which players are encouraged and even required to perform violence against women in order to ?save them?."

It almost sounds like she's talking about people driving drunk. How can any gamer support such a lack of respect towards video games and devs?

Also two nice counter videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKAg_NmTcoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJbTWlyk4Uk

And about this: "Of course not, but I do recognize that there is a problem within the industry regarding the place of Female characters and you'd be blind not to realize that hardcore gaming is a male dominated thing"

So what?! That's actually a great counter argument against Anita. Because it shows the male pandering is just companies aiming for big $$$. And there is nothing inherently wrong with hardcore gaming being dominated by men. That would be an extremely sexist thought.
 

Uhura

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Wyvern65 said:
Except I never made that argument. I don't think the abuse she's received is in any way excusable. I went out of my way in my second post to categorize it as vile because I realized I failed to do so sufficiently in my first post. I just assumed that everyone already agreed that it was. I seem to be naive in that regard.

Obviously I can't speak to what happened here before I arrived. You're attributing malice where there is none.
I wasn't trying to attribute malice to your post. I was trying to explain why that particular rumor bothers me and explain to you why I commented that specific part in your post.

Wyvern65 said:
Again, you're characterizing my motivations and without bothering to check what they are. I have no problem admitting to ignorance. I have no problem with being proven wrong. It happens with tedious frequency.
I accepted that graphic, which I had seen in an earlier thread, uncritically. I'd thank you for pointing it out to me and making me examine it, but I suspect you'd read it as either being condescending or patronizing.
... You said that I was being "more than a touch disingenuous" and now you make assumptions about my motivations and reactions. You sure seem to able to dish it. FYI I wouldn't have read it as being condescending or patronizing. Why would I have?

Wyvern65 said:
Posting a negative comment about Xbox One is not automatically trolling. Or do you think any criticism aimed at Xbox One is automatically trolling?
Of course, that's exactly what I said. Stop doing that, please.
Anita did not 'just' post an innocent criticism of Xbox One. [And I'd say she was criticizing the Microsoft press conference, not the console itself, but I suppose it could be read either way.]
She is a high profile feminist, whose views are highly divisive within the gaming community. She posted a pointed criticism about lack of gender representation to two high-profile twitter feeds. She then collected the inevitable outrage, removed all context from it, and publicized it. I believe that those actions say something about her character. You can mischaracterize my argument all you like but it's fairly straightforward.
Stop doing that? Again, I'm only asking you to clarify your statement. The tweet Sarkeesian posted wasn't in any way inflammatory, so I had a really hard time understanding why you would call it trolling. Which is why I asked if you consider any criticism aimed at Xbox One trolling. I don't know you and I don't know your posting style. That's why I asked. And now you're also changing the topic. I've only adressed the original tweet she posted. I think the subsequent tumblr post was snarky of her, and I don't necessarily like her wording there.

Wyvern65 said:
Should she just stop using her social media sites? Is it automatically trolling if she posts something on her twitter? Help me out here.
Yes, that's clearly the argument I was making.
She is not nearly as much of an ingenue as you are portraying her as. Frankly, I think you're insulting her clear media savvy by even pretending she could possibly fail to know precisely how her comments would be received.
I have a modicum of respect for your intelligence. It would be nice if you displayed a modicum for mine, and either moved beyond Debate 101 type tactics or simply consigned me to the dustbin of the unsavable.
I'm not trying to argue that she didn't know that people would attack her. People tend to rip apart everything she says. I'm arguing that what she posted wasn't trolling, even if she knew that some people would react negatively to it. It's not trolling because that's how people react to her every time she posts anything related to gender or feminism. There is nothing inflammatory about pointing out that the Microsoft presentation didn't feature games that had female protagonists. It's not an insulting nor a trollish remark.

I'm trying to be direct and if it comes off as sarcastic or condescending, then I apologize.
 

The-Traveling-Bard

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NightowlM said:
The-Traveling-Bard said:
Uhura said:
Wyvern65 said:
I will point out for the record that you are being more than a touch disingenuous.
There is nothing disingenuous in pointing out that people who spread the 4chan rumor do not actually have any proof that she did any trolling. Look, you have joined the forums only a month ago and I'm not sure if you have followed the Anita discussion before you joined, but the 4chan rumor is one the most common things people bring up when they want to attack Anita or dismiss the abuse she received. The argument is always "she had it coming, she trolled 4chan", and those posts are most of the time followed by other comments about how fucking stupid Sarkeesian is for trolling 4chan.

There is no proof that she trolled 4chan.
People are spreading rumors to legitimize or downplay the abuse Sarkeesian received.
That's disingenuous.

If spreading unsubstantiated rumors about a person doesn't bother you, then I don't know what else to say.

Wyvern65 said:
Whether or not she trolled the #E3 and #XBoxOne hashtags yesterday is hardly a matter of conjecture or speculation. She did so quite publicly. The fact that it mirrors the 4chan story is interesting, but perhaps coincidental.

Either she's too naive to understand how social media works - something I refuse to accept given both her educational speciality and her clear intelligence - or she knows throwing chum in the water attracts sharks and is quite sanguine about taking advantage of it.
Trolled? Really? Since the Xbox One reveal in May, people have been bashing Xbox and Microsoft for their anti-consumer business practices, for the design of the console, for the name of the console and for whatever else they can think of. It's been one of the most popular punching bags on these forums and pretty much on any other gaming site for weeks. Posting a negative comment about Xbox One is not automatically trolling. Or do you think any criticism aimed at Xbox One is automatically trolling?

Should she just stop using her social media sites? Is it automatically trolling if she posts something on her twitter? Help me out here.

Wyvern65 said:
In my eyes that makes her an opportunist. Perhaps in your eyes that makes her a hero. [Or should that be heroine? Is that too gendered?]

I wasn't being the least sarcastic when I said feminism deserves better than that.
A hero? Oh come on.
I am going to double post, because I am going to LOL after you watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEWIefam53E

She clearly is trolling just watcher facial expression at 5:20.
IF you ever deny it now after this point... well yeah.
Obviously!!!
Obviously she's a troll because look at that facial expression!! Apparently, smirking when an interviewer asks a question about trolls means "OMG guys, she's deceived us all, that troll!!!"
Human body language.
Should look into it some time it's quite a interesting topic.

And it was a smirk. The nervous hair moving, the stuttering after the question. The total bullshit defense she used to defend herself. The awkward tone in her voice. Things like that.

Anita knows what she is doing and she is doing it well.
She's nothing but a hypocrite spewing ***** that is playing the victim card to her advantage.

Because Murica love dem victims!

Seriously if America haven't been obsessed with the "Victim Game" for the past 10 years, or so. She would still be a nobody. That's just a fact.