This is Why Criticizing Anita Sarkheesian is Irrelevant and Pointless

[Brown_Coat117]

Look at the way she relentlessly criticized Mattie Ross in her True Grit vid. She says that she wants stronger women in media and yet she complains when a character is too badass. She claims to be against gender stereotypes then complains when female characters don't display more traditionally female traits while adopting more traditionally male traits. There is no winning with her, she is a professional victim and the last person that we need being the main voice on gender representation in any media.

 

[invadergir]

Look at the way she relentlessly criticized Mattie Ross in her True Grit vid. She says that she wants stronger women in media and yet she complains when a character is too badass. She claims to be against gender stereotypes then complains when female characters don't display more traditionally female traits while adopting more traditionally male traits. There is no winning with her, she is a professional victim and the last person that we need being the main voice on gender representation in any media.

She actually complained about that performance? Does anyone have a link? I always thought Hailee Steinfeld's performance was one of the best that any child actor has put in regardless of gender. In fact, I hadn't even considered her gender because Mattie was an amazing protagonist.

 

[Vigormortis]

Does anyone else find it extremely ironic that Ms. Sarkheesians words bemoan the disgusting, "misogynistic" use of the damsel-in-distress trope in gaming, while her actions attempt to paint herself as one?

I know I do.

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Frankly, I can't stand the woman.

I am all for talking about, and hopefully solving, many of the issues facing the gaming industry today; including sexism. However, Anita's brand of inflammatory sensationalism is NOT the way to go about it.

She's more harmful to "the cause" than she is helpful.

 

[Little Gray]

Does anyone else find it extremely ironic that Ms. Sarkheesians words bemoan the disgusting, "misogynistic" use of the damsel-in-distress trope in gaming, while her actions attempt to paint herself as one?

I know I do.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Frankly, I can't stand the woman.

I am all for talking about, and hopefully solving, many of the issues facing the gaming industry today; including sexism. However, Anita's brand of inflammatory sensationalism is NOT the way to go about it.

She's more harmful to "the cause" than she is helpful.

I dont think its fair to say she is huring "the cause." Regardless of if you agree with her methods or not you cant deny that she is dam good at pointing out all of the sexism in the gaming community. Yes she purposely draws their attention to her but from what I have seen it generally just reinforces her points.

 

[generals3]

I'm calling bullshit on that one mate, largely because there is evidence that video games does have an effect on attitudes, but also because what you're arguing goes against EVERYTHING video gamers have been doing for the past 5 years.

Video Games are an art form and like any other art form, they're required to effect the observer in some way and evoke emotion and thought. That is what art is, they effect personalities and ways of thinking. What you're defending isn't art. What you're defending is just a hobby and nothing more.

Do I agree with Anita on all of her arguments? Of course not, but I do recognize that there is a problem within the industry regarding the place of Female characters and you'd be blind not to realize that hardcore gaming is a male dominated thing. But after what you just said, you have the audacity to call me the traitor for agreeing on a few points?

That is something that a lot of people aren't realizing here. You can like something and still recognize its flaws and work to fix those flaws.

First: As i would tell anyone: citation needed.

Secondly: There is a big difference between evoking emotions and thoughts and affecting personality and way of thinking. How many people got into the gangster lifestyle after playing GTA? I don't think many did. And since most people play games to have FUN and not gain a new perspective on the world I'd say the effect on people's personality and way of thinking is likely to be minimal and also ambiguous (as Anita has clearly shown everything can be interpreted in different ways, heck I still don't see how someone can interpret tropes like she does).

Yes you can recognize flaws. But you can't go start claiming that these "flaws" have a negative effect on people in real life without any citation.

I don't want game devs and gamers to be guilt tripped based on empty propaganda. Let me quote a key phrase she said:
"Given the reality of that larger cultural context, it should go without saying that it?s dangerously irresponsible to be creating games in which players are encouraged and even required to perform violence against women in order to ?save them?."

It almost sounds like she's talking about people driving drunk. How can any gamer support such a lack of respect towards video games and devs?

Also two nice counter videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKAg_NmTcoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJbTWlyk4Uk

And about this: "Of course not, but I do recognize that there is a problem within the industry regarding the place of Female characters and you'd be blind not to realize that hardcore gaming is a male dominated thing"

So what?! That's actually a great counter argument against Anita. Because it shows the male pandering is just companies aiming for big $$$. And there is nothing inherently wrong with hardcore gaming being dominated by men. That would be an extremely sexist thought.

 

[Uhura]

Except I never made that argument. I don't think the abuse she's received is in any way excusable. I went out of my way in my second post to categorize it as vile because I realized I failed to do so sufficiently in my first post. I just assumed that everyone already agreed that it was. I seem to be naive in that regard.

Obviously I can't speak to what happened here before I arrived. You're attributing malice where there is none.

I wasn't trying to attribute malice to your post. I was trying to explain why that particular rumor bothers me and explain to you why I commented that specific part in your post.

Again, you're characterizing my motivations and without bothering to check what they are. I have no problem admitting to ignorance. I have no problem with being proven wrong. It happens with tedious frequency.
I accepted that graphic, which I had seen in an earlier thread, uncritically. I'd thank you for pointing it out to me and making me examine it, but I suspect you'd read it as either being condescending or patronizing.

... You said that I was being "more than a touch disingenuous" and now you make assumptions about my motivations and reactions. You sure seem to able to dish it. FYI I wouldn't have read it as being condescending or patronizing. Why would I have?

Posting a negative comment about Xbox One is not automatically trolling. Or do you think any criticism aimed at Xbox One is automatically trolling?

Of course, that's exactly what I said. Stop doing that, please.
Anita did not 'just' post an innocent criticism of Xbox One. [And I'd say she was criticizing the Microsoft press conference, not the console itself, but I suppose it could be read either way.]
She is a high profile feminist, whose views are highly divisive within the gaming community. She posted a pointed criticism about lack of gender representation to two high-profile twitter feeds. She then collected the inevitable outrage, removed all context from it, and publicized it. I believe that those actions say something about her character. You can mischaracterize my argument all you like but it's fairly straightforward.

Stop doing that? Again, I'm only asking you to clarify your statement. The tweet Sarkeesian posted wasn't in any way inflammatory, so I had a really hard time understanding why you would call it trolling. Which is why I asked if you consider any criticism aimed at Xbox One trolling. I don't know you and I don't know your posting style. That's why I asked. And now you're also changing the topic. I've only adressed the original tweet she posted. I think the subsequent tumblr post was snarky of her, and I don't necessarily like her wording there.

Should she just stop using her social media sites? Is it automatically trolling if she posts something on her twitter? Help me out here.

Yes, that's clearly the argument I was making.
She is not nearly as much of an ingenue as you are portraying her as. Frankly, I think you're insulting her clear media savvy by even pretending she could possibly fail to know precisely how her comments would be received.
I have a modicum of respect for your intelligence. It would be nice if you displayed a modicum for mine, and either moved beyond Debate 101 type tactics or simply consigned me to the dustbin of the unsavable.

I'm not trying to argue that she didn't know that people would attack her. People tend to rip apart everything she says. I'm arguing that what she posted wasn't trolling, even if she knew that some people would react negatively to it. It's not trolling because that's how people react to her every time she posts anything related to gender or feminism. There is nothing inflammatory about pointing out that the Microsoft presentation didn't feature games that had female protagonists. It's not an insulting nor a trollish remark.

I'm trying to be direct and if it comes off as sarcastic or condescending, then I apologize.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

I will point out for the record that you are being more than a touch disingenuous.

There is nothing disingenuous in pointing out that people who spread the 4chan rumor do not actually have any proof that she did any trolling. Look, you have joined the forums only a month ago and I'm not sure if you have followed the Anita discussion before you joined, but the 4chan rumor is one the most common things people bring up when they want to attack Anita or dismiss the abuse she received. The argument is always "she had it coming, she trolled 4chan", and those posts are most of the time followed by other comments about how fucking stupid Sarkeesian is for trolling 4chan.

There is no proof that she trolled 4chan.
People are spreading rumors to legitimize or downplay the abuse Sarkeesian received.
That's disingenuous.

If spreading unsubstantiated rumors about a person doesn't bother you, then I don't know what else to say.

Whether or not she trolled the #E3 and #XBoxOne hashtags yesterday is hardly a matter of conjecture or speculation. She did so quite publicly. The fact that it mirrors the 4chan story is interesting, but perhaps coincidental.

Either she's too naive to understand how social media works - something I refuse to accept given both her educational speciality and her clear intelligence - or she knows throwing chum in the water attracts sharks and is quite sanguine about taking advantage of it.

Trolled? Really? Since the Xbox One reveal in May, people have been bashing Xbox and Microsoft for their anti-consumer business practices, for the design of the console, for the name of the console and for whatever else they can think of. It's been one of the most popular punching bags on these forums and pretty much on any other gaming site for weeks. Posting a negative comment about Xbox One is not automatically trolling. Or do you think any criticism aimed at Xbox One is automatically trolling?

Should she just stop using her social media sites? Is it automatically trolling if she posts something on her twitter? Help me out here.

In my eyes that makes her an opportunist. Perhaps in your eyes that makes her a hero. [Or should that be heroine? Is that too gendered?]

I wasn't being the least sarcastic when I said feminism deserves better than that.

A hero? Oh come on.

I am going to double post, because I am going to LOL after you watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEWIefam53E

She clearly is trolling just watcher facial expression at 5:20.
IF you ever deny it now after this point... well yeah.

Obviously!!!
Obviously she's a troll because look at that facial expression!! Apparently, smirking when an interviewer asks a question about trolls means "OMG guys, she's deceived us all, that troll!!!"

Human body language.
Should look into it some time it's quite a interesting topic.

And it was a smirk. The nervous hair moving, the stuttering after the question. The total bullshit defense she used to defend herself. The awkward tone in her voice. Things like that.

Anita knows what she is doing and she is doing it well.
She's nothing but a hypocrite spewing ***** that is playing the victim card to her advantage.

Because Murica love dem victims!

Seriously if America haven't been obsessed with the "Victim Game" for the past 10 years, or so. She would still be a nobody. That's just a fact.

 

[Vigormortis]

I dont think its fair to say she is huring "the cause." Regardless of if you agree with her methods or not you cant deny that she is dam good at pointing out all of the sexism in the gaming community. Yes she purposely draws their attention to her but from what I have seen it generally just reinforces her points.

But I can. I can deny that "she is dam good at pointing out all of the sexism in the gaming community".

Her grievances are often presented in the same manner as Total Biscuit. As in: start off with a few genuinely valid, if occasionally tenuous, points and repeat them ad nauseam whilst "reinforcing" them with hyperbole, exaggeration, misdirection, and straw-mans. All the while making damn sure to make her comments as inflammatory as possible.

There's a difference between using ones comments to draw attention to the matter at hand, and using the matter at hand to draw attention to yourself.

Ms. Sarkheesian seems only interested in the latter.

As I've said before: I do feel we all need to discuss the matter of sexism (and other issues) within the gaming industry and the gaming community. But again, Anita's way is not the right way.

It doesn't solve anything. It doesn't educate anyone to the truth. It simply stirs up vitriol and bile; on both sides of the topic.

You don't solve hatred and ignorance by applying more hatred and ignorance.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

People tend to rip apart everything she says.

Well maybe she should stop ripping apart things that aren't there?
She does the same thing and completely makes up things that aren't true.

Example: Kayne West Monster Video.

In fact I think someone posted about that earlier on the forums.


So if you're going to say people rip apart everything she says.

Anita should stop ripping apart everything as well and take a step further and stop making shit up for her victim complex.

 

[Vale]

I have no problem with what she is doing, I have problem with the fact that she is the one doing it. I find her woefully uncharismatic and feel that if someone who actually has charisma would be the one to present these issues, then they would gather a lot more support. "Charisma" does not equal "more boobs". I really don't think this needs explanation, but I have a vague feeling someone might very well be willing to start an argument over this.
Also, kickstarter? I ain't against the people who gave her money, I just find it... off that she used it in the first place. I guess she really did need it, but it still feels... I'unno. Maybe I'm stupid to even think that she could've done her videos without it.

 

[Uhura]

@invadergir

She actually mentions several good things about Mattie but also criticizes certain other aspects of her characterization.

From the video description:
"Mattie Ross is the star of the award winning film True Grit. She is a remarkable character being cast as a strong, tough, independent, and determined young woman. While I think Mattie's character is (unfortunately) rare in major Hollywood films, many people have been quick to call her a feminist character... I have a slightly different take."

 

[Wyvern65]

I thank you for taking the time to respond.

Honestly, I'm not sure it would benefit either of us or the conversation as a whole to continue it further. My entire 'argument' such as it is I posted on the first page of the thread in my first two posts. I stand by it. I thought it was fairly clearly written and straightforward. It will either stand or fall on its own merits, or far more likely simply be ignored.

Continuing down a discursive path and getting lost in the weeds only detracts from what I meant to say here. So consider this me bowing out and ceding the field. Have a pleasant day.

 

[Uhura]

snip

Yeah, I have to agree with that. Pleasant day to you too.

 

[Eddie the head]

@The-Taveling-Bard

Seriously, a facial expression? That's all you got?

Well body language dose make up for about half of the message you are trying to get across. So if I say something but my eyes, for example, say something different it can show my true intentions. I'm no expert "reader" but it dose appear she doesn't want to be asked that.

 

[Uhura]

Well body language dose make up for about half of the message you are trying to get across. So if I say something but my eyes, for example, say something different it can show my true intentions. I'm no expert "reader" but it dose appear she doesn't want to be asked that.

To me she looks like she was surprised and amused that the interviewer would whip out the phrase "don't feed the trolls".

 

[Yuuki]

Anita ends with: "This is also a window into what it?s like to be a female video game critic on twitter."

Female video game critic? I always thought she was a radical feminist who happened to be a video game critic. There's a big fuckin' difference.

 

[Ablestron]

Im not sure if anyone has mentioned these articles (if so I apologize for the re post)

When I saw this forum post it seemed like great timing since I had recently finished reading a great article on the very subject

http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2013/06/hyper-mode-anita-sarkeesian-and-the-trouble-with-m.html

There are some links to other good articles sprinkled in the piece, one I read and found pretty informative was this one

http://c.apricio.us/2013/03/further-explaining-the-damsel-in-distress/#.UbenItjpqPS


I highly recommend reading both no matter your opinion of Anita or her videos. I find it hard to watch her videos for many of the same reasons people have listed in this forum, but if there's one thing I do respect its the amount of dedication it takes to keep doing what she's doing despite all the hate mail, death threats and constant critiques of her integrity she gets every single time she makes sends a post or a tweet. You may argue that that's because the tweets easily infuriate people, but no matter how you look at it by answering her tweet (which was pretty much "no female protagonists in Xbox one line-up" coupled with the observation "this is still a problem") with statements like "your a ****" or "stop bothering us with your feminist agenda" or "go die".

A lot of people are questioning why she gets to be the voice for feminism in gaming, of course there are other women who speak on the same subject, but none of them have put themselves out there as much as Anita; in other words no one has been as courageous as she has been to be in the public eye. Anita has probably dealt with more criticism than any and that deserves respect. That doesnt make her BETTER than the others who talk on the subject, obviously if your trying to understand the issue of equality and specifically of gender equality you have to do more than look at just the most known feminist. You have to do reaserch, with arguments and counter arguments. The point is to mature as a person so that we can then come to better conclusions that are beyond our own simple understanding, when you respond to things posted by a feminist with responses like "go die" your not maturing at all, even if you disagree with the person ho makes the statement.

 

[Eddie the head]

Well body language dose make up for about half of the message you are trying to get across. So if I say something but my eyes, for example, say something different it can show my true intentions. I'm no expert "reader" but it dose appear she doesn't want to be asked that.

To me she looks like she was surprised and amused that the interviewer would whip out the phrase "don't feed the trolls".

Well I can't tell you your wrong, but I think she is moving way to much in her seat and blinking to much. It appears to me to be nerves, not surprise. As well as flicking of the hair. I don't see surprised. I see nervous and aversive.

I'm not an expert though, I could be wrong.

 

[Uhura]

Well I can't tell you your wrong, but I think she is moving way to much in her seat and blinking to much. It appears to me to be nerves, not surprise. As well as flicking of the hair. I don't see surprised. I see nervous and aversive.
I'm not an expert though, I could be wrong.

Yeah, we both could be wrong. Maybe there's a guy eating doughnuts next to the camera and she got distracted?! Who knows. That's why it's a bit tricky 'evidence'.

 

[Dr Pussymagnet]

snip

;-; If you would be so kindly as to message me how you do this so we can have a better discussion. It would be great! ( I hope you're not getting angry.)

Anywho back on topic.

She is at fault completely. Since other people have also clearly she is just feeding to trolls to feed her own agenda that makes her worse than fucking Hitler. Preying on the weak and stupid because they don't know any better? Lawl. How low can you go.

Do you notice her face on the CNN news when the Lady told her "have you ever heard of don't feed the trolls?"
Her face just went "OH SHIT. I AM CAUGHT" but people are too stupid to read into what really went behind on that news cast that day. That YES Anita is literally using the hate to feed her agenda.

She's just has bad as School Shooters.

Oh! Nobody is listening to me! I'm going to go shoot up a school so people will pay attention to me.
ME, ME, ME, ME, ME.

It's also a worse fact that her SELF A PERSON FIGHTING ABOUT SEXIST IS ACTUALLY MOTHERFUCKING SEXIST!
She clearly states in her video that the only reason why man go after their loved ones is to fulfill a masculine duty that has been wounded.

Despite.. you know. The person took away the person they loved, built a family with, and other crap.

NOPE MASCULINE DUTY!


Let's not talk about gays. :b We don't need another flame war do we? Hahaha.
Even gays need a women to pass on their genetic Legacy.

Sex isn't about love yo. It's about baby making.

Okay, well yes. It's not a honest social commentary but that also wasn't my point.
My point is people are going to make fun of you regardless of who you are.
Anita isn't a fucking victim because she is a girl. She a victim of her own demise and stupidity which I will never, ever find acceptable and righteous by no means. America in general LOVES to play the victim game and it's down right sickening and disgusting how people can buy into this bullshit.

Anywho onto the actual angry comments.

Yeah, but do you honestly truly believe those people are actually sexist?
Or do you think they're just angry that this idiotic girl is trying to oppress her will on other people?
Do you think that the hate their have for Anita comes from any male superior thinking.
HELL! Do you even think for a second they even took a neno second to think about what they just posted?

All girls belong in the kitchen.
^ took me about a second to right that. No thought, no feeling, no complex secret hidden agenda behind it. Nothing.
People will say what they want on the internet because they get punished for it.
People also say things without thinking.
People do a lot of stupid things.


Jokes/insults. Fine.
Threats? Yeah, i'll agree with you. That's going too far. I'm asshole. I'm not a total asshole.

Anita asked for this shit.
Anita KNEW and is playing us ALL to get her way. That's the bottom line.

The fact she is *clearly trolling with that twitter posts proves it* because there was a few games when the main character was female.

IN FACT THEY EVEN HAD A FEMALE PLAYING IN- GAME WITH OTHER MALES BEING ALL NICE BUDDY, BUDDY.

What the fuck.

You heard it here first folks, Anita Sarkeesian, a person who just talks about fucking video games, is literally just as bad as a school shooter

These responses are god damn embarrassing.