Tomb Raider Dev: Rape is Not in Our Vocabulary

[Scorpid]

CD, you are not smart enough to not make this look bad. That entire scene was just icky and sleazy. It is COMPLETELY obvious that you've implied the men assaulting Lara also want to violate her. Sexual violence is not something you are talented enough to discuss, so you were probably better off not implying it in the first place.

And guess what, groping CAN be classified as sexual assault or molestation.

You know I understood where you guys were coming from with sexploitation in that Hitman scene with the stripper nuns and I was with you guys there. But Lara being put into a situation like that wasn't in my eyes sleazy at all. My god she actually killed him as someone like me would of if I had been in that situation, accidentally and in a clearly desperate act. I view that scene in the same way as the ACTUAL rape scene in Deliverance, Lara (the tourists) were forced into a world alien to them where morality is almost a crutch and cruelty and dominance was how you survive, the "rape" scene in the trailer was clearly meant emphasize that (something that trailer was trying to show before and after that one scene).

Implying that getting raped builds character though is very eye brow raising. Though CD has as much right to discuss rape as any other developer or person and I have no immediate qualms about the game if they did include it in the game. It's up to the story teller to tell the story and if he presents it poorly then THAT IS his fault, but don't attack them for JUST using the threat of rape to tell a story, attack them for using it poorly or in a clearly exploitative nature.

 

[lacktheknack]

The sad part of it all is that this is the definition of "overblown". I've done a lot of digging, and this is what I've come out with:

1. An aggressor approaches Lara.
2. The aggressor touches her thigh and moves close to kiss her.
3. She CRUSHES his genitals with her knee.
4. He dies from fatal shot to the face.
5. It doesn't happen again.

That doesn't constitute sexual assault, let alone rape. It's almost spectacular how safe Crystal Dynamics are playing it. But hey, don't let THAT get in the way of a good obsession for us to fight about over the course of 9001 threads.

EDIT: To avoid the quote flood: No, touching someone's thigh does not constitute sexual assault any more than grabbing someone's arm. Had he of succeeded in kissing or properly groping her, that would be sexual assault... he doesn't.

 

[lacktheknack]

It's not nearly drowning on an ocean liner
It's not waking-up in cocoon
It's not the inadvertent appendectomy
It's not the scared whining voice
It's not the constantly collapsing cave
It's not the enemies randomly grabbing her
It's not her being disarmed and taken prisoner (again)
It's not even the attempted rape

ITS ALL OF THAT PUT TOGETHER!!!

Welcome to the world of survival stories. Try reading "Lord of the Flies", a good James Patterson thriller, or even "A Series of Unfortunate Events".

 

[Tradjus]

Diggin' and a diggin' and a diggin' their graves.
Seriously, what are these guys trying to prove? Do they actually think that by slapping a fancy label on attempted rape, the PR nightmare they whipped up is going to dissipate?
Not only will it not, but not -shutting up- and letting it slip under the radar in a few weeks is practically putting a noose around their own necks, they feel the need to respond to something it would be more prudent for them to let everyone talk themselves out about, and forget. By stimulating discussion about it by releasing statements, they are in effect, keeping the problem fresh and newsworthy for another week or two.

 

[Sixcess]

Rosenberg described the scene as an attempted rape in at least two separate interviews - with Kotaku and with Penny Arcade. It's dishonest and cowardly of CD to claim that he 'misspoke' twice.

Should games be allowed to deal with such subject matter? Yes.

Is CD capable of dealing with such subject matter in a way that isn't clumsy and/or sensationalist? Based on what we've seen, I'd say no.

If they were really committed to exploring something like this in a mature and responsible manner then they'd have been prepared for this, and they'd have a response that wasn't entirely based on denial. The fact is they put this scene in because they wanted to give the game a superficial veneer of grittiness, realism and maturity without actually being mature.

And almost a month on from E3 they're still on the defensive. It astonishes me that noone at CD thought it was a bad idea to put the words 'Lara Croft' and 'rape' in the same sentence - regardless of context it was never ever going to end well. It really does suggest to me that they have no fucking idea of what they are doing or of how to handle the brand they're working on.

CD need to remove the sequence, kick Rosenberg onto another project and release a new trailer that emphasises something other than Lara in pain/peril. If they don't do it now this is going to overshadow every piece of PR they attempt to do for this game from now to release.

 

[LHZA]

The sad part of it all is that this is the definition of "overblown". I've done a lot of digging, and this is what I've come out with:

1. An aggressor approaches Lara.
2. The aggressor touches her thigh and moves close to kiss her.
3. She CRUSHES his genitals with her knee.
4. He dies from fatal shot to the face.
5. It doesn't happen again.

That doesn't constitute sexual assault, let alone rape. It's almost spectacular how safe Crystal Dynamics are playing it. But hey, don't let THAT get in the way of a good obsession for us to fight about over the course of 9001 threads.

EDIT: To avoid the quote flood: No, touching someone's thigh does not constitute sexual assault any more than grabbing someone's arm. Had he of succeeded in kissing or properly groping her, that would be sexual assault... he doesn't.

Okay, well the law doesn't agree with you. He's touching her in an unwanted sexual way which constitutes sexual assualt, AND if you read the wikipedia page on groping (legally considered a form of sexual assualt)it lists the thigh as a common area of assault. Other than that I agree with you, or at least the hoopla over the trailer. Didn't find much wrong with it. The guys comment on the other hand were just stupid.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Haha I always feel sorry for the PR people who have to work with some of these guys.

Yeah, I was sure I wasn't the only one who felt like this.

This is how I imagine a generalised PR group would deal with this crap:

PR guy 1: "Okay, so Ron basically went out and whacked that Hornets nest with the controversy stick, but don't panic... we can turn this around pretty easily."

PR guy 2: "I've been poking my head around some of the major sources of fan rage and I've got to say, a lot of the hate specifically stems from what Ron said. If we just calmly re-iterate what was said and apologies on Rons behalf... or get him to apologise and nothing more, then that would probably calm most of the controversy. At least then the launch of the game won't be subjected to as much scrutiny as it currently is."

PR guy 1: "Sounds good, keep it simple, lets not insult our consumers intelligence."

PR guy 3: "Eh, just curious... would saying that there is no rape or even IMPLIED rape be a good idea?"

PR guy 2: "Thats an awful idea and you should be ashamed for suggesting it."

PR guy 1: "Have you lost your shit? That would suggest the man handling and groping Lara got was NOT implicit of sexual assault, when by no stretch of the imagination, GROPING HAPPENED!"

PR guy 3: "Geez, calm down. It wasn't my idea. Karl was the one who suggested it."

PR guy 1: "Good. *phew* I thought you had lost the plot. Ok so we got a plan, let's get ourselves prepared for that interview later... Hey, by the way, where is Karl?"

Yeah, I'd say this is a stressful job.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I can just see their next press release. "Okay, well yes, of course it's rape, but it's not rape rape."

 

[wizzy555]

I can just see their next press release. "Okay, well yes, of course it's rape, but it's not rape rape."

It isn't rape it's sexual assault, that doesn't make it right. Just like assault isn't murder.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Not only is there no rape in the game, there's not even something akin to it. A woman gets knocked around and a guy touches her leg--a man that is then murdered. Less pretend outrage, less white knighting, less fake empathy and a little more maturity would be great, guys.

Men and women have been beaten, raped, murdered, tortured, mutilated and forced to endure situations you've probably never even heard of in books for as long as they've been written, on stage since we've been acting and in film for as long as we've been making movies.

I've got records that depict incestuous rape and drowning, books that deal with suicide and peer pressure, movies with abortion and infanticide and I've been to see plays on grand stages that show them all.

If you can't deal with a man touching a woman's thigh, you aren't old enough to be playing the game.

If I hear someone whine about sexism one more time, my head might explode. Used to be, that word meant something.

 

[kurupt87]

If you worry about the fetishes of people involving anything even remotely sexual in game before making it then you couldn't ever have anything remotely sexual in game. Heck, even non sexual things become sexual given the right (aka wrong) fan base.

There is a certain difference between creating a scenario where you want to defend your character from undesirably outcomes(like death, in most games), and exploiting a female character, and a controversial issue such as rape to appeal to our need to "protect someone". It turns an otherwise good moral judgement(preventing rape=good) into a marketing tactic that takes advantage/patronizes both the male gamers playing it, and trivializes a difficult issue and reality that women/men have to deal with. Rape itself should not be used to appeal to our inner "white knight". Its a topic that deserves the respect of material it is represented in, and the audience that will be experiencing it.

Bollocks.

If the character is liked and harm is indicated then the white knight will appear, there is no choice. It doesn't matter if it's film, book, tv or game; if the character is liked the consumer will wish grievous harm not to occur.

There is no difference between wanting to protect your character from death or protecting them from rape. In fact, real world I'd choose to protect someone from death over rape.

The only reason this is a big deal is because of the stupid youtube docu explosion and because rape is sexual. Just because death doesn't mean anything to the gamer anymore doesn't mean that it doesn't actually mean anything; it taking the unaccustomed mention of rape to remind players that their actions have story consequences (or even cutscene inactions just giving weight) is a good thing.

So you don't think the utilization of subject such as RAPE as a means to pander to male audience("white knights") isn't somehow morally dubious? I don't see how being blind to a subject matter's societal implications is desirable, as you could easily destroy the integrity of your story by pandering to the lowest common denominator(white knights). There is a very distinct difference when dealing with the subject with the respect it deserves, or including it for shock value. Them mentioning rape as a character building experience for Lara is representative of their insensitive treatment of the subject.

Pandering? Doesn't occur.

Fetishisation? Only in your mind.

White Knight's are not only male, they are female too. Every player of every game is essentially a White Knight and, I dunno if you know this, girls play games too.

Appealing to the White Knight is a common thing. Anything bad happening to a liked character appeals to the White Knight; Lisbeth Salander in The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo has a rape scene and guess what, most everybody wanted that not to happen to her and would've tried to stop it. But, short of storming into the projector room and vandalising the equipment there is no way a film viewer can change the outcome. The White Knight is simply more noticeable in games because the player has control and so can change outcomes.

Nor is the White Knight simply, as you are trying to imply, only around when a male wants to save a female character. Wanting to save any character from any bad thing is the White Knight; it is one of the most basic aspects of gaming.

Onto Lara; she is a mass murdering, grave robbing mercenary. It is not inconceivable that there was some trauma in her past that made daddy's little rich girl into the monster she now is. As I've said before, death doesn't really cut it as a motivator anymore because every player is not only used to it as motivation but is also personally responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of virtual people.

I'm just saying that rape shouldn't be used to tickle our puerile fantasies of protecting women from rape to preserve their precious fragile dignity, or as a lazy characterization device.

The first point is not what is occurring, the second probably. We don't go to games for quality stories, their weight is brought by the fact the player can change them. Quality, past a certain point, is just incredibly rare icing on the cake.

Back to your first point there, no. Rape is just another Very-Bad-Thing[sup]TM[/sup] that is easily digestable by the consumer. Murder, rape and torture are the big three; murder is out as I've said which leaves rape and torture. Torture requires much more characterisation of the perpetrator whereas rape is simple, so rape it is.

I welcome it because it is at least slightly different from the customary dead wife/husband/kids/parents/village shtick.

 

[BrotherRool]

Wow this has turned into a disaster. I like the new Tomb Raider but this guy needs to Stop. Talking. Now.

 

[Able Seacat]

Talk about backpedalling and just plain lying to the consumer. Of course it's sexual assault. I really do hope the game is good and it's just the marketing that's batcrap crazy.

 

[wizzy555]

Can I point out the irony/stupidity of hosting an article from someone with an emotional trigger asking people not to throw around a specific word and then having that word in a lot of headlines.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I can just see their next press release. "Okay, well yes, of course it's rape, but it's not rape rape."

It isn't rape it's sexual assault, that doesn't make it right. Just like assault isn't murder.

And I shall name him Wizzy, Despoiler of Jokes, Illuminator of the Obvious. His name shall live on for a few minutes, whereupon it shall be buried under the weight of a multi-page rape topic.