Tropes vs. Women Protagonists

[BrassButtons]

I couldn't really make it past the second paragraph, I know this may be a foreign concept but if you want your points to be heard maybe try being less disrespectful of different opinions and not calling people you disagree with names.

He's not disrespectful to people who disagree with him. He's disrespectful to people who threaten violence against those they disagree with. It's an important distinction.

 

[KrystelCandy]

May i suggest that you play "IJI"? the delicious human suffering and emotions have a context here since she may be just one of the few human being alive in that game. That is not a spoiler, that happens at the beginning of the game, the bad guys wins before we even start.

Since the discussion isnt going nowhere, i may as well press the reset button ask the simple question to have a fundation to start with: What does it mean to be feminine?

Context is important for what's actually needed to be feminine, it depends on the character and what job they're doing. Strong, confident, showing emotions like HAPPINESS or sadness not just angst(something that usually gets left out if the first two are included). If they're civilians, the "fear" reactions can be different, just not unnecessarily crippling. The sounds they make when something happens... all that can be feminine instead of masculine. What they TALK about when they do talk... hopefully I never see anything like Other M ever again as an example.

Honestly that's it, making a feminine character isn't actually all THAT hard.It's the subtle actions rather than the major ones that make a character feminine. Note that ALL of the above need not be included in any single circumstance.

In the end however the actual decisions/reactions to things shouldn't be all that different from what a male does in most situations, but again... context matters alot.

And this doesn't mean a woman CAN'T have emotional baggage/sexy clothing or whatever, it would just be nice for it to not be "required".

 

[hentropy]

I think the problem here is that a lot of men, be they western or Japanese, don't WANT women to have the same kind of power fantasies men do. It threatens the idea of male dominance. It's not a conscious thing, of course, I don't know many men who would say so outside of an anonymous forum. But when guys see a strong female, they get scared. This isn't some kind of new idea. So when you suggest that women should have the same power fantasies as men, it makes the male developers and male fanbases feel uncomfortable and want to bite back. When put through that lens, the whole Sarkeesian thing makes sense. It's not that there's a huge part of the male video game fanbase that really consciously thinks that females are inferior, they just don't like the idea of the women in their life blowing up aliens the same way men do, because it makes them look at women in a different and uncomfortable light.

 

[simple64]

This thread was a pretty amazing read. Shame most sites couldn't discuss a topic such as this with the same level of maturity.

 

[leahzero]

I started face palming by the two minute mark and it just kept going and going and going... furthering my dislike of Moviebob.

*snip*

Suffice to say that video didn't do anything.

Female gamer here (I hate that I have to specify this, but it'll probably make you take me more seriously) to tell you that you're analyzing Bayonetta--and Bob's video--way too superficially.

If you'd actually watched the entire thing, you'd see that he applauds Bayonetta because she's a sex-positive female character who cares about her OWN satisfaction, as opposed to the infantilized, submissive, male-pleasing stereotypes we usually get with sexualized female characters--or the completely desexualized ice queens who are supposed to represent "strong" women.

Femaleness is not a dichotomy between nubile sex kitten and frigid ice queen. There are many shades in between and beyond these two stereotypes.

Bob ultimately concluded that Bayonetta is a novel character because, yes, while she IS titillating to cisgendered males, she's also clearly more interested in her own satisfaction than in fanservicing the dude holding the controller.

Sadly, that's actually a really bold message to pose to gamers: that a ridiculous fantasy woman like Bayonetta could be more interested in her own pleasure than some dude's. That, hey, maybe sexuality isn't all about YOU. Maybe women are interested in their own pleasure, not just yours.

Why can't we have sexual, sex-positive female characters who aren't a) evil or b) infantilized? Developing a healthy attitude toward female sexuality is a key part of overturning the unrealistic representation of women in games.

Also, taking Bayonetta seriously is just...embarrassing. The entire thing consist of endless levels of meta-irony. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.

 

[KrystelCandy]

I started face palming by the two minute mark and it just kept going and going and going... furthering my dislike of Moviebob.

*snip*

Suffice to say that video didn't do anything.

Female gamer here (I hate that I have to specify this, but it'll probably make you take me more seriously) to tell you that you're analyzing Bayonetta--and Bob's video--way too superficially.

If you'd actually watched the entire thing, you'd see that he applauds Bayonetta because she's a sex-positive female character who cares about her OWN satisfaction, as opposed to the infantilized, submissive, male-pleasing stereotypes we usually get with sexualized female characters--or the completely desexualized ice queens who are supposed to represent "strong" women.

Femaleness is not a dichotomy between nubile sex kitten and frigid ice queen. There are many shades in between and beyond these two stereotypes.

Bob ultimately concluded that Bayonetta is a novel character because, yes, while she IS titillating to cisgendered males, she's also clearly more interested in her own satisfaction than in fanservicing the dude holding the controller.

Sadly, that's actually a really bold message to pose to gamers: that a ridiculous fantasy woman like Bayonetta could be more interested in her own pleasure than some dude's. That, hey, maybe sexuality isn't all about YOU. Maybe women are interested in their own pleasure, not just yours.

Why can't we have sexual, sex-positive female characters who aren't a) evil or b) infantilized? Developing a healthy attitude toward female sexuality is a key part of overturning the unrealistic representation of women in games.

Also, taking Bayonetta seriously is just...embarrassing. The entire thing consist of endless levels of meta-irony. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.

To sum it up... I disagree. The video IS superficial, and so is Bayonetta... and you know what, that's fine.

I presented my opinion, and I personally didn't find her all that "sex positive". And nowhere does it say she cares about her own satisfaction, she's not a person, she's a character, made by men, to appeal to men. If you can find some kind of positiveness about her portrayal, that's fine, but she is definitely not empowering. My second post also commented on the whole "show emotions" part of the frigid ice queen stereotype that gets associated with strong women.

Bayonetta is a sex kitten. "her own satisfaction" is in fact a construction that was most pleasing for the male designers of her, which is fine, but she's NOT a character I find interesting or empowering to my gender. Bob also undermines his own arguments by saying she's not interested in sexually pleasing men... yet her every action is designed to be sexually pleasing to men, just in a more dominating sexually powerful way. I don't begrudge people for liking her, but holding her up as a golden standard of advancement... no thanks.

I don't have a problem with sex positive characters, but that doesnt' mean I have to like Bayonetta, to me she's just a sex kitten who goes on an actiony adventure rather than anything.

And I never took Bayonetta seriously, but that doesn't mean I have to like her just because "it's not meant to be taken seriously!" I dislike her for what she is, a female character who's designed to flaunt her sexuality at every turn. And note the "every turn" part. Sexuality is fine, it does not need to be shoved into everyones faces with every word, every action, every movement, and every piece of 'clothing'.

Also your gender has nothing to do with what I'm going to reply to you with. I only said it in my first post to show that not all female gamers agree with Bayonetta being a positive role model.

 

[Ken Sapp]

I think the solution to the problem lies in the number of people that want to make games that women want to play with female leads that they want to play as.

If there aren't game designers that want to make those games, then those games either won't get made or they will be horrible perversions of what people like Sarkeesian are asking for. Don't most good games come from developers making the kinds of games they want to play? In that case the real solution is to find developers that want to make the games they are asking for and to fund them so that those games get made as well. Indies seem to have done well in proving that no matter the niche, there is a market that is ready to buy the games if they get made. And once a few of these games get made and show good sales, the major publishers will take notice and put their own efforts into making more games for the market.

The danger then comes from developers swinging too far towards being a feminist rant against mainstream games in which case it will just piss off the larger gaming community that is the major developers' bread and butter.

 

[BreakfastMan]

What does it mean to be feminine?

What does it mean to be masculine? I think you will find men have just as hard a time defining that as women do defining what it means to be a feminine.

No, defining masculinity and the manly "ideal" is pretty easy. That's why writers do it all the time. James Bond is an example.

Providing a definition for masculinity is easy. Getting all men to agree that that definition is correct and reflective how the ideal man is supposed to act and be is impossible. Same with femininity.

 

[Kuhkren]

I think a great example of the design of a female power fantasy would be female Hawke from Dragon Age: 2. Wears feasible armor, can use normal weapons that men also use, etc. Not too much exploration in the difference of being a woman in the game setting, or if there is even one. Maybe its irrelevant to female Hawke. Still, a good step.

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

These are all good questions, and they don't have simple answers. More importantly, they can really only be answered by talking to women - preferably in a safe forum away from the screaming murlocs. It's a conversation that should be launched by a woman. I hope that if Sarkeesian doesn't, someone else will.

too bad you don't have, you know, a game-loving wife and daughters at home that you could talk to. why is the role of columnists who have a problem with things to complain and then tell other people to have the difficult conversation? interview your wife and kids and put THAT in your column, don't sit on your porch with the other men fanning yourself and complaining about the issues of the day.

this is why i don't bother with talking to people about the gender-in-games issue. they're always happy to say this conversation is not theirs to have, like all the women in the world are on the other side of an impassable wall that only specially qualified people can get through to initiate the conversation and the changes needed.

 

[DioWallachia]

I think the problem here is that a lot of men, be they western or Japanese, don't WANT women to have the same kind of power fantasies men do. It threatens the idea of male dominance. It's not a conscious thing, of course, I don't know many men who would say so outside of an anonymous forum. But when guys see a strong female, they get scared. This isn't some kind of new idea. So when you suggest that women should have the same power fantasies as men, it makes the male developers and male fanbases feel uncomfortable and want to bite back. When put through that lens, the whole Sarkeesian thing makes sense. It's not that there's a huge part of the male video game fanbase that really consciously thinks that females are inferior, they just don't like the idea of the women in their life blowing up aliens the same way men do, because it makes them look at women in a different and uncomfortable light.

The word you are looking for them is "It makes me feel useless, and i if she can have the same power as i do then i cant impress her into submission. I would have to develop......(gulp)....a PERSONALITY!!!!"

THE HORROR I TELL YOU!!!

 

[DioWallachia]

What does it mean to be feminine?

What does it mean to be masculine? I think you will find men have just as hard a time defining that as women do defining what it means to be a feminine.

No, defining masculinity and the manly "ideal" is pretty easy. That's why writers do it all the time. James Bond is an example.

Providing a definition for masculinity is easy. Getting all men to agree that that definition is correct and reflective how the ideal man is supposed to act and be is impossible. Same with femininity.

How about "The Hero's Journey"? It seems that if we can get to know how humans are always recicling the same story over and over in a subcouncious lvl, then i am pretty sure we can know what is the ideal for men since the beginning of time.

 

[BreakfastMan]

What does it mean to be feminine?

What does it mean to be masculine? I think you will find men have just as hard a time defining that as women do defining what it means to be a feminine.

No, defining masculinity and the manly "ideal" is pretty easy. That's why writers do it all the time. James Bond is an example.

Providing a definition for masculinity is easy. Getting all men to agree that that definition is correct and reflective how the ideal man is supposed to act and be is impossible. Same with femininity.

How about "The Hero's Journey"? It seems that if we can get to know how humans are always recicling the same story over and over in a subcouncious lvl, then i am pretty sure we can know what is the ideal for men since the beginning of time.

Well, we already know why we use the Hero's Journey over and over again, if I remember The Hero With A Thousand Faces correctly: it is because the Hero's journey basically symbolizes the journey through life, which all people of all cultures can relate and identify with.

Anyway, what was the ideal for men is probably not the ideal now. Times have changed. The relationship the human race has between the earth and itself has changed. Many things that were commonly accepted back then are not now. :\

 

[CBanana]

The ironic thing is that many of these games "for girls" are actually more sexist as they make out females to be superficial fashionistas or destined for a high level of homemaking.

As for sexiness of video game characters, I agree with Susan Arendt. Female characters can dress sexily but there has to be a story or character reason for it. As a third wave feminist, I don't believe that sexiness is inherently disempowering but there is a huge difference between pandering to the heterosexual male demographic and giving the sexiness context.

 

[DioWallachia]

There IS no ideal female protagonist. Women are much harder to cater to than men, because they have much more varied tastes. This whole discussion is retarded, instead of focusing on what the character has dangling between the legs or not, people should look at the character's personality to determine whether it's a good character or not. All they know is that they're not happy, but when you ask why and try to get some constructive criticism, they've got nothing.

Of course that the personality (or the context in the plot) should matter. Hell, since gamers only care about the game itself and the story, i dont see them going all the way into wasting the oportunity of playing a game just because someone is not represented properly (unless its Metroid Other M we are talking about)

But while we are at the "its a good character, so it shouldnt matter" i may as well ask the simple question: are these female good characters?

IVY from Soul Calibur
The Dead or Alive cast
The Skullgirls cast
Mai Shiranui from King of Fighters
Princess Peach
Princess Pitch (from Hyper Princess Pitch)
Yorda from ICO

Remember that they may be good characters by themselves even if they plot integrity is non existant; Sort of like how you are instructed to get people on Mass Effect 2 but most of them arent plot integral even if they had character arcs.