Tropes vs. Women Protagonists

[KrystelCandy]

Indeed.

Empowering.

As for 'power implications' not being attractive well... there's an entire market that revolves around that kind of thing. You might have heard about it, if not, someone else can inform you I'm sure.

Nearly everything Bayonetta does is eye candy, her entire voice and the lines she says is filled heavily with innuendo and breathyness.

The only thing empowering about Bayonetta is she's female and can fight.

Here is a video that may help (not really) to understand Bayonneta. Courtesy of Movie Bob:

I started face palming by the two minute mark and it just kept going and going and going... furthering my dislike of Moviebob.

Ironically the characters figure meant absolutely nothing to me regarding feminism, it's always the personality/actions/outfit of the character, and Bayonetta's embraces most of the worst things possible for me personally, I also like how he hardly says anything about her personality throughout preeeetyy much the entire video. He does however focus a hilarious amount on the physical aspects of all the characters, and wow... his analysis is just so... awkward. He's focusing highly on technicalities trying to justify the character, "she's doing the candy a favor!" as she makes sexual motions as she sucks on the lollipop as somehow evidence to... well I don't even know. It's somehow not traditionally sexual because the candy is smaller, yet sexually empowering her because the candy is small. Uh, kay.

He focuses alot on how powerfully sexually she is... like really alot. Did I mention alot? It's an entire review dedicated to how sexy she is due to her physical attributes and movements.

The only thing I half agree with is the casual way she carries her guns, which barely qualifies because she uses her guns in exaggeratedly sexual poses as well.

A sexy character... created by a sexist designer who was showing how he thinks all women should act. How powerfully SEXUAL she is he regards as a step up for women, well of course considering that's exactly what she was designed for.

Powerful does not equal empowering.

Sexy does not equal sexist.

Bayonetta is eye candy, and that's fine, men and women can appreciate that, but she's definitely not empowering and there's no need to pretend she is.

It's also funny how he regards any act that isn't sexual (Chun Li's somewhat bouncy victory pose) as somehow invalidating the character as empowering for women while reducing her power in the eyes of men. Which is doubly ironic since however Chun Li acts, it's doubtful mister Fonzy could do anything to her, or say those things to her face without getting the bejeesus kicked out of him. Then Cammie with her colder personality is also... yeah this rant has gone on long enough.

Suffice to say that video didn't do anything.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I don't get the "women want to play too" argument. Aren't women already playing? Aren't they already like 40some% of the gaming population? How does this happen when games according to you are mostly incapable of providing the power fantasy they seek?



I think a lot of women are fine with this supposedly male-centric power fantasy, cause women are people and people enjoy doing bad-ass and cool things, destroying things, being loved by the side-characters and so on. The fact that the protagonist is male doesn't mean that the gratification itself is gender-locked. Women don't get precluded from feeling bad-ass when they blow up a building just because the character is male, they still are the player, they still did do the act, they still do feel the joy and fun and whatever else that stems from it.

 

[KrystelCandy]

I don't get the "women want to play too" argument. Aren't women already playing? Aren't they already like 40some% of the gaming population? How does this happen when games according to you are mostly incapable of providing the power fantasy they seek?



I think a lot of women are fine with this supposedly male-centric power fantasy, cause women are people and people enjoy doing bad-ass and cool things, destroying things, being loved by the side-characters and so on. The fact that the protagonist is male doesn't mean that the gratification itself is gender-locked. Women don't get precluded from feeling bad-ass when they blow up a building just because the character is male, they still are the player, they still did do the act, they still do feel the joy and fun and whatever else that stems from it.

I'm fine with it, but if given the choice I'd rather play a woman doing most of those bad ass things without the seeming need for developers to decide I only deserve 1/3 as much clothing for being female, or need to have needless amounts of emotional baggage attached to my badassery, while still you know... being feminine.

And part of the problem is people equate those two things with being "feminine".

 

[Kekkonen1]

The Xenosaga-games are quite rare in that they have a female lead (Shion) that is not sexualized at all (atleast as far as I can remember, it has been a few years since I played the games), but is a strong smart scientist.

But then again, just like with male protagonists, what characters will be liked is very individual. Some guys may love playing as over-the-top Kratos while others prefer androgynic Cloud, and in the same way some girls might love the over-the-top Bayonetta while others prefer the more subdued intellectual Shion.

As for Bayonetta, even I as a guy felt bad and couldn't play more than an hour or so. I would say it is incredibly sexualized as a sort of ultimate fantasy for (some) guys.

Basically rather than lumping ME in with other games that had female protagonists but were 'bad for unrelated reasons' the article should/could have emphasized just how few games there are like ME that have basically done exactly what shamus is calling out: had a female lead that wasn't an object of titillation for male players. I don't think it's coincidence that ME is the only 1st person game of the 5 he explicitly calls out in the article (ME, Wet, VA, Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw).

I simply must disagree with this, I think "official" femshep was constructed in a way that was certainly made to be attractive to men. Not only did they have that choose-femshep-thingy which was kind of bad, but what really bothered me was that the official femshep looks like an 18 year old girl. I have a hard time believing that the living legend that is Shephard is anywhere below 35, male-shep certainly doesn't look as young as femshep does.

 

[DioWallachia]

The range of stories written about women as characters is vastly narrower than those written about men as characters. Whilst male protagonists exist in a wide variety of stories, stories about adventure, revenge, romance, fatherhood, coming of age, crime, self-respect, justice, and so on; stories about women are almost always either about romance or motherhood. There are exceptions, but they're few and far between.

And you don't see this as a problem? It's a big reason why Tropes vs. Women even exists.

Rly? because so far, she hasnt even TELL US what a "good" female character constitutes. Let alone how the theme of motherhood can be used without going sexist (like Other M)

*cough, cough* Aliens *cough, cough* good example of how the theme of motherhood can work and not be sexist in an action sci-fi context *cough, cough*

....


That is it?

This is one of the things that are so simple that you cant believe that is the correct answer. Also cant believe why we didnt see that more often, then again people was too weirded out with Alien Resurrection and the alien-baby-thingy.

But here is the thing..........that doesnt seem exclusive to a woman. Lets pretend that Ripley is a man now and does exactly the same in the movie, what would change? because, again, if the thing that is HOLDING BACK the writers in making proper women is just that......and that is just so dammed simple that even a man can do it (that sounded sexist) then what was so special about motherhood again?

The same thing that is special about fatherhood, maybe? Feeling this love for a child and wanting to take care of it? I mean, that seems pretty special to me.

Yeah, that is my point. If after all this time is just the same as fatherhood then WHY is the excuse of "i cant write women because motherhood is beyond me" still alive? that is why i concluded that maybe is the pregnancy stage where people think mostly as "motherhood". That and the issue of abortion or destroying a life that is not technically sentient.

 

[BreakfastMan]

The range of stories written about women as characters is vastly narrower than those written about men as characters. Whilst male protagonists exist in a wide variety of stories, stories about adventure, revenge, romance, fatherhood, coming of age, crime, self-respect, justice, and so on; stories about women are almost always either about romance or motherhood. There are exceptions, but they're few and far between.

And you don't see this as a problem? It's a big reason why Tropes vs. Women even exists.

Rly? because so far, she hasnt even TELL US what a "good" female character constitutes. Let alone how the theme of motherhood can be used without going sexist (like Other M)

*cough, cough* Aliens *cough, cough* good example of how the theme of motherhood can work and not be sexist in an action sci-fi context *cough, cough*

....


That is it?

This is one of the things that are so simple that you cant believe that is the correct answer. Also cant believe why we didnt see that more often, then again people was too weirded out with Alien Resurrection and the alien-baby-thingy.

But here is the thing..........that doesnt seem exclusive to a woman. Lets pretend that Ripley is a man now and does exactly the same in the movie, what would change? because, again, if the thing that is HOLDING BACK the writers in making proper women is just that......and that is just so dammed simple that even a man can do it (that sounded sexist) then what was so special about motherhood again?

The same thing that is special about fatherhood, maybe? Feeling this love for a child and wanting to take care of it? I mean, that seems pretty special to me.

Yeah, that is my point. If after all this time is just the same as fatherhood then WHY is the excuse of "i cant write women because motherhood is beyond me" still alive? that is why i concluded that maybe is the pregnancy stage where people think mostly as "motherhood". That and the issue of abortion or destroying a life that is not technically sentient.

Well, A: I have never heard that excuse before now, and B: people can be really stupid, you expect writers to be any different?

 

[DioWallachia]

I don't get the "women want to play too" argument. Aren't women already playing? Aren't they already like 40some% of the gaming population? How does this happen when games according to you are mostly incapable of providing the power fantasy they seek?



I think a lot of women are fine with this supposedly male-centric power fantasy, cause women are people and people enjoy doing bad-ass and cool things, destroying things, being loved by the side-characters and so on. The fact that the protagonist is male doesn't mean that the gratification itself is gender-locked. Women don't get precluded from feeling bad-ass when they blow up a building just because the character is male, they still are the player, they still did do the act, they still do feel the joy and fun and whatever else that stems from it.

I'm fine with it, but if given the choice I'd rather play a woman doing most of those bad ass things without the seeming need for developers to decide I only deserve 1/3 as much clothing for being female, or need to have needless amounts of emotional baggage attached to my badassery, while still you know... being feminine.

And part of the problem is people equate those two things with being "feminine".

May i suggest that you play "IJI"? the delicious human suffering and emotions have a context here since she may be just one of the few human being alive in that game. That is not a spoiler, that happens at the beginning of the game, the bad guys wins before we even start.

Since the discussion isnt going nowhere, i may as well press the reset button ask the simple question to have a fundation to start with: What does it mean to be feminine?

 

[DioWallachia]

Well, A: I have never heard that excuse before now, and B: people can be really stupid, you expect writers to be any different?

Ok, i dont want to give the idea that writers use an excuse that basically saids that other people (and decent writing) are so far beyond comprehencion that they mas as well be Eldrich Abominations..........but the answer is yes.

They may be stupid but its THEIR JOB! arent they supposed to AT LEAST do the bloody research or talk to another human being? are these people so far in their own asses that they cant ask someone or even their own fanbases?

 

[BreakfastMan]

What does it mean to be feminine?

What does it mean to be masculine? I think you will find men have just as hard a time defining that as women do defining what it means to be a feminine.

Well, A: I have never heard that excuse before now, and B: people can be really stupid, you expect writers to be any different?

Ok, i dont want to give the idea that writers use an excuse that basically saids that other people (and decent writing) are so far beyond comprehencion that they mas as well be Eldrich Abominations..........but the answer is yes.

They may be stupid but its THEIR JOB! arent they supposed to AT LEAST do the bloody research or talk to another human being? are these people so far in their own asses that they cant ask someone or even their own fanbases?

Okay, they SHOULD be different, but they really aren't. They are normal, fallible people just like you and I, who can often think they know more than they do or act based upon flaws in their thinking, just like you and I.

 

[GloatingSwine]

That is kinda my point. I would expect that, if you bring a woman into the equation, then you MUST do something important with her in the story, otherwise it just something interchangeable between man and woman.

You'll find that most things actually are interchangeable between man and woman.

The insistence that "because this character is a woman their story must be about exclusively woman stuff" is what limits the portrayal of women in fiction. It's a bad thing, because it keeps us from seeing women as protagonists who are as versatile in their portrayal as men.

Men and women should be interchageable for the vast majority of stories.

 

[GloatingSwine]

And you don't see this as a problem? It's a big reason why Tropes vs. Women even exists.

The hint that I do see this as a problem would be how I started my post "I think the problem is"

But hey, reading, it's fun and practical.

And no, this is not what Tropes vs. Women does, because in none of the first set of videos is this addressed. It picks around the edges of the problem by complaining about the portrayals of women as secondary characters that result from this, but it does not get to the heart of the problem and talk about this elephant in the room that women are incredibly limited as protagonists, and are limited in these specific ways.

 

[GloatingSwine]

So you dont feel tricked that the most popular female is male minded....sort off?

If you regard a character who doesn't fit into one of the two allowed female roles as "male minded" you've already lost.

Ripley in Alien is a person, a fully defined person with character traits and flaws to which her gender is entirely irrelevant. That's why she's an example of a good female character, and why she's a protagonist that we need more of. A protagonist who could be either male or female, but who is female. Because right now that kind of gender neutral story that addresses things that are pan-human in scope are almost always made with male protagonists.

Go back and imagine, say, Cast Away being made with a woman in the lead role instead of Tom Hanks. What changes? Well, nothing, except we've deviated from Hollywood default. But the fact that that deviation would be noticed is a problem in itself, because it means that we don't have equality in fiction.

If you demand that female characters be female first and characters second, that they get stuck in the two stories that are allowed to be told about female characters because otherwise we might not notice that they're female, then you're part of the problem.

We should be aiming for a place where any story can be told with any gender of protagonist and no-one notices, because that will mean that we're in a far more equal place than we are now.

 

[Dalloshh]

Great article, I agree with everything.
And I think it's normal to see girls like Anita to get angry because there aren't a lot of games with a serious female character.. I'm saying there's no reason to insult her just because she's an angry feminist girl.. Many girl gamers are disappointed with game industry but not everyone yells their feelings on You Tube or in other social network.
Anita's one of them but she had the courage to say her opinion.. in a bad way IMHO but hey, don't hate her.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

The range of stories written about women as characters is vastly narrower than those written about men as characters. Whilst male protagonists exist in a wide variety of stories, stories about adventure, revenge, romance, fatherhood, coming of age, crime, self-respect, justice, and so on; stories about women are almost always either about romance or motherhood. There are exceptions, but they're few and far between.

And you don't see this as a problem? It's a big reason why Tropes vs. Women even exists.

Rly? because so far, she hasnt even TELL US what a "good" female character constitutes. Let alone how the theme of motherhood can be used without going sexist (like Other M)

*cough, cough* Aliens *cough, cough* good example of how the theme of motherhood can work and not be sexist in an action sci-fi context *cough, cough*

....

But here is the thing..........that doesnt seem exclusive to a woman. Lets pretend that Ripley is a man now and does exactly the same in the movie, what would change?

Well that romance with Corporal Hicks would have been 30 years ahead of its time in romantic representations on the silver screen and still a million times more rewarding as a romance arc than the mountains of shit we get in movies now.

 

[Negatempest]

From my own point of view I see more complaints about how eye candy for men should be removed. To be "equal" means that women need their own eye candy as well, and I am totally supportive of that. Women should have more access to games where they get to ogle the guy half the time during gameplay.

 

[Powerman88]

A point and an opinion:

Here is the thing with women wanting to play woman games. The market really needs to be tested. Lets not fool ourselves to thinking AAA games are made as art. They are made to make money. If the industry sees an avenue of making profit off of AAA games that feature female protagonists they will be made. I do believe that the market exists, but until someone makes a product and it sells, it wont really happen.

What I personally would like to see is a video game that has a real woman protagonist. Not necessarily a "Bikini model who is smart too", or a woman with not quite as big breasts (but still nice breasts), but maybe a middle aged woman. A woman with stature who is seen as something other than a mother type figure. Maybe a woman who is badass because she is badass, not because "shes sassy and likes to stick it to all the men" (and subsequently does because she focuses on it so much). I would like a real woman as a protagonist and I don't think that kind of game exists.

Really I would love to see a female Adam Jenson. What if DXHR gender rolls of the protagonist and love interest were reversed? Could the head of security at Seraph industries be a 32 (emphasis not an 18 year old supermodel) year old Adriana Jensen who lost her nerdy scientist boyfriend in a terrorist attack and got awesome robot arms? I would play that.

 

[BrassButtons]

I couldn't really make it past the second paragraph, I know this may be a foreign concept but if you want your points to be heard maybe try being less disrespectful of different opinions and not calling people you disagree with names.

He's not disrespectful to people who disagree with him. He's disrespectful to people who threaten violence against those they disagree with. It's an important distinction.

 

[KrystelCandy]

May i suggest that you play "IJI"? the delicious human suffering and emotions have a context here since she may be just one of the few human being alive in that game. That is not a spoiler, that happens at the beginning of the game, the bad guys wins before we even start.

Since the discussion isnt going nowhere, i may as well press the reset button ask the simple question to have a fundation to start with: What does it mean to be feminine?

Context is important for what's actually needed to be feminine, it depends on the character and what job they're doing. Strong, confident, showing emotions like HAPPINESS or sadness not just angst(something that usually gets left out if the first two are included). If they're civilians, the "fear" reactions can be different, just not unnecessarily crippling. The sounds they make when something happens... all that can be feminine instead of masculine. What they TALK about when they do talk... hopefully I never see anything like Other M ever again as an example.

Honestly that's it, making a feminine character isn't actually all THAT hard.It's the subtle actions rather than the major ones that make a character feminine. Note that ALL of the above need not be included in any single circumstance.

In the end however the actual decisions/reactions to things shouldn't be all that different from what a male does in most situations, but again... context matters alot.

And this doesn't mean a woman CAN'T have emotional baggage/sexy clothing or whatever, it would just be nice for it to not be "required".

 

[hentropy]

I think the problem here is that a lot of men, be they western or Japanese, don't WANT women to have the same kind of power fantasies men do. It threatens the idea of male dominance. It's not a conscious thing, of course, I don't know many men who would say so outside of an anonymous forum. But when guys see a strong female, they get scared. This isn't some kind of new idea. So when you suggest that women should have the same power fantasies as men, it makes the male developers and male fanbases feel uncomfortable and want to bite back. When put through that lens, the whole Sarkeesian thing makes sense. It's not that there's a huge part of the male video game fanbase that really consciously thinks that females are inferior, they just don't like the idea of the women in their life blowing up aliens the same way men do, because it makes them look at women in a different and uncomfortable light.

 

[simple64]

This thread was a pretty amazing read. Shame most sites couldn't discuss a topic such as this with the same level of maturity.