Your own description points out that the jokes are gendered. Not sure where your opposition to my comments comes in. In addition, you should check your own dry humour detector, they Hyperbole Sensor seems to be playing up.sunsetspawn said:
Tropes vs. Women Protagonists
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
Recommended Videos
So we agree, the jokes were terrific. I thought you were pointing out things you didn't like. I can never tell what people are really thinking on the internet.Labyrinth said:
You know what, I immediately assumed that due to the fact that you were pointing out that the jokes were gender biased you were also somehow pointing out that they were bad and didn't belong in the game. I am an argumentative jerk, and you are spelling Glados a little too correctly.Labyrinth said:
We're bad at dry humor over here. See "Team America" for examples of our dry humor. It's as wet and ridiculous as can be, but because it's delivered a bit deadpan it counts.Labyrinth said:
My objection to Sarkeesian is that she's a rather vile person, her analysis is shallow and blatantly slanted, and she asked for thousands of dollars to make the same (terrible) vlogs she already makes. And then she got that money, because the internet had to go and get stupid over it. That applies both to her idiot supporters and the screaming neckbeards who turned the whole thing into a gender war.
That's one of the things I love about Saints Row 2 (and to a lesser extent 3). Because you can create either a male or female protagonist (or something in between), the entire story is gender neutral. It has to be, because the developers have no idea which gender you are playing. The story goes the same either way, so whatever the male protagonist would do, so would the female protagonist.
And with the customization options in the game, you can do whatever you want with that character. Sure, you can make a female bimbo if that's what you want. Or you can make a female biker or a goth chick or a business woman. Or a male equivalent of any of those, it's totally up to the player.
When I play either of those games, I actually usually play a female character. Just because it's so refreshing to play a female protagonist that isn't a trope. I wish more games would go that way. Give the player the option to play the gender and style they want to play. Then everyone is happy
And with the customization options in the game, you can do whatever you want with that character. Sure, you can make a female bimbo if that's what you want. Or you can make a female biker or a goth chick or a business woman. Or a male equivalent of any of those, it's totally up to the player.
When I play either of those games, I actually usually play a female character. Just because it's so refreshing to play a female protagonist that isn't a trope. I wish more games would go that way. Give the player the option to play the gender and style they want to play. Then everyone is happy
You see, I was with you all the way to the end of the article, but then you said that Mirror's Edge was a bad game and so I have to hate you forever no matter how much I enjoy Spoiler Warning. le sigh...
1.Glademaster said:
being both male and female; hermaphroditic.
2.
having both masculine and feminine characteristics.
3.
having an ambiguous sexual identity.
4.
neither clearly masculine nor clearly feminine in appearance: the androgynous look of many rock stars.
5.
Botany . having staminate and pistillate flowers in the same inflorescence.
Most JRPG protagonists fulfil 3 of those definitions. Your example at the top fulfils 4. They are both androgynous.
Chairman Miaow said:
- 1. No definitely not,
2. No have a wirey frame and gelled hair isn't very feminine nor is the face particularly rounded/feminine,
3 No there is no ambiguous sexual identity,
4 Last I checked women don't wear some strange half wife beater thing.
5. Not a plant so no
The only 1 you could make a point for is maybe number 2 but since the character doesn't not act feminine just like a twit I don't see. As to most filling it they most certainly do not there is a very limited pool that even remotely comes close to it. Even in FF the series accused of being most guilty of this I struggle to think of protagonists that even come close to this aside from Vaan. Even then I do not think it is a strong case.
The problem I'm seeing in this thread is the constant use of the term "gender neutral." I'm assuming (possibly wrongly), that this mean the game treats you the same regardless of the gender the player chooses. I COMPLETELY disagree with this notion. Not because I don't think men and women should be treated equally (in fact, my ideal world would be a "gender neutral" world), but this would be completely negating the role gender plays in our modern world. I'll accept the concession that maybe it shouldn't matter in RPGs or games where you create a character because there is only so much you can do with the world's reaction to the characters that accounting for every difference in skin color, gender, or sexual preference would add on hours, days, or even weeks onto development.
HOWEVER, in a game with a linear story and established characters, gender should NEVER be disregarded. The developer's decision to have a male or female protagonist should be reflected in the world around the character. For example, a game like Silent Hill (when it was good) or even Tomb Raider, the characters SHOULD treat the character differently because she is a woman. That's just how the world works. BUT, if they decide to not have the world focus on her gender, there should be a reason. A good example is Enslaved: Odyssey to the West. Monkey doesn't seem to really give a shit that Trip is female. They bond, and there are even hints that they have a romantic interest in each other after a while, but he doesn't focus on her gender. And the reason for this is because the world that they are in (on the run from mechs, constantly struggling for survival) doesn't allow for such petty differences. if gender roles were still a hotly contested issue in this world, the human race wouldn't last very long. Necessity overrides the tradition of the past.
IN SHORT: Unless the game world is written otherwise, games with story SHOULD focus on the differences between genders, because this difference is quite important to our human interactions, and to simply disregard this for equality reasons would be to deny the reality that surrounds us. Should women in games be treated better and EQUAL to men? Yes. Should women be treated the SAME as men? No. And I feel the same way about race or sexual preference. To simply just ignore this element of a character and how it might affect their interactions in the world around them would be an incredibly foolish decision.
HOWEVER, in a game with a linear story and established characters, gender should NEVER be disregarded. The developer's decision to have a male or female protagonist should be reflected in the world around the character. For example, a game like Silent Hill (when it was good) or even Tomb Raider, the characters SHOULD treat the character differently because she is a woman. That's just how the world works. BUT, if they decide to not have the world focus on her gender, there should be a reason. A good example is Enslaved: Odyssey to the West. Monkey doesn't seem to really give a shit that Trip is female. They bond, and there are even hints that they have a romantic interest in each other after a while, but he doesn't focus on her gender. And the reason for this is because the world that they are in (on the run from mechs, constantly struggling for survival) doesn't allow for such petty differences. if gender roles were still a hotly contested issue in this world, the human race wouldn't last very long. Necessity overrides the tradition of the past.
IN SHORT: Unless the game world is written otherwise, games with story SHOULD focus on the differences between genders, because this difference is quite important to our human interactions, and to simply disregard this for equality reasons would be to deny the reality that surrounds us. Should women in games be treated better and EQUAL to men? Yes. Should women be treated the SAME as men? No. And I feel the same way about race or sexual preference. To simply just ignore this element of a character and how it might affect their interactions in the world around them would be an incredibly foolish decision.
Okay, see? This is why you need me to write video game stories. Most of my characters that I've created are strong, female leads, who you properly should feel badass while playing, and not because they're bros *brofist*. They simply go against the common Weak Female X trope.
Really, though, I haven't seen Anita's first video. Can't find it. Will look later. Then edit post. But really, though, almost everything can be summed up in a trope. Anita's original intent was to expand the narrow list of tropes that the video game industry is comfortable with. That's it.
So give her a stage. What's the worst that could happen? A bunch of murlocks overreact and ruin it for the rest of us?
Okay, that's pretty bad, and it's been happening. Know what? The best thing to do would be to act mature and give her a chance at this point.
brb watching video. Or not.
Really, though, I haven't seen Anita's first video. Can't find it. Will look later. Then edit post. But really, though, almost everything can be summed up in a trope. Anita's original intent was to expand the narrow list of tropes that the video game industry is comfortable with. That's it.
So give her a stage. What's the worst that could happen? A bunch of murlocks overreact and ruin it for the rest of us?
Okay, that's pretty bad, and it's been happening. Know what? The best thing to do would be to act mature and give her a chance at this point.
brb watching video. Or not.
you sir, have not seen enough Bond and it shows. Calling him a heartless mass murder pretty much shows you have only seen trailers.Buretsu said:
Womanizing sure. But if saying woman fall for attractive, smart and powerfull man is sexist you have just lost your touch with reality.
Shamus Young said:
I have to say this whole subject is making me loose a lot of respect for women and the credibility of the idea of equality of the sex's.
Every time some nutjob goes on a spree killing binge and blames heavy metal , play by mail role playing games or currently computer games ive rolled my eyes and claimed that normal people can tell the difference from fantasy and reality and this individual was actually mental and that was the problem not violent lyrics/roleplay/games.
Now we seem to be suggesting there an entire gender that doesnt recognise the difference between the fantasy world of games and reality and if they dont see self images in them they cant relate.
Now as a 40 year old fat long haired , anti social , nerd i personaly have pretty much never seen myself represented in a video games character, women might at least find the litany of low brow dumb meat heads games are populated with attractive to me they have been enemies more often than not. You see the thing for me is the gameplay i like games, if the game is good i dont really give a stuff about the protagonist. this whole argument seems to me to go counter to the idea of women being gamers to. it makes it sound like they all need it to be dress up Barbie.
I completely agree with this arguement. Guys should not feel bad for any panderous or fan service games. they should feel bad that the same is not given to there female compatriots. Thank you sir cutting through sarks bs and getting to the real issue.
The answer to this is simple... Go out to a major city, pick my hometown of Seattle if you want, take about 1000 pictures of different women at random, find the most common clothing style and body shape and pick that.... Then give the character a happy medium persona between, Elizabeth Bennet (strong willed but fairly weak in ability of affect change..... and Daenerys Targaryen...... Strong willed and will melt you with her dragons if you cross her.
Stick her in whatever scenario you please: spy thriller, fantasy epic, modern war shooter.... Pick something.... and you have it a woman that women will identify with because despite being strong and capable she has to deal with stereotypes and overcome them, (lets be honest 90% of women still have to deal with this crap even though they shouldn't) but at the end completes the hero's journey and wins respect and a sense of accomplishment.
Stick her in whatever scenario you please: spy thriller, fantasy epic, modern war shooter.... Pick something.... and you have it a woman that women will identify with because despite being strong and capable she has to deal with stereotypes and overcome them, (lets be honest 90% of women still have to deal with this crap even though they shouldn't) but at the end completes the hero's journey and wins respect and a sense of accomplishment.