UK Atheists Hope to Eliminate Jedi Population

[Seraniel]

What if I get a red pen and scrawl BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD across religion.

Will they file that under 'other'?

you could always try "for the pestilence of father nurgle" or some other god from fictionals

 

[Luke Cartner]

Firstly it depends. See after hours of thought in logic land (delve too deep you get too sad is my experience) I realised that the brain houses memories. The physical aspect of the body that is. I also came to the conclusion, that life pretty much runs in cycles and if you look at a lot of cycles in nature they always restart, one way or another. So my body was not created for 14 billion years. I could be a collection of undiscovered particles that makes up my conscious and when you die you could split off into other consciousness like a cell multiplies or heck, maybe we're connected to an alternate universe or I dunno. (Please note the above was just opinion, there is no evidence and I'm not forcing it upon anyone).

As I say the proof that there is or isn't an alternate universe or that what I just said happens doesn't exist but neither is there proof to disprove it. Hence why the 50:50 thing. Even that which I sat down and thought about I can't fully commit to, it's just what I think a logical answer would be...

SCRUTINY AWAY!!!

well all that sounds awesome and quite cool.

a bit like the lord of the rings.

and just like the lord of the rings, im almost certain its bullshit that you made up. and therefore am more than 50% sure its not true, and therefore disbelieve it.

would make a good book though.

I sort of did make it up but it was on grounds of logic. "Believable BS" so to speak. But at the end of the day, isn't that what a lot of religions are formed on? Either that or the speakings of one self-appointed man. I'm quite happy with people making up something to believe in and heck even if it isn't true it's still nice to be able to believe in something and have that in your mind then, "ahh well, looks like 300 billion years of voidness, nothing for me now".

As I say deconstructing it logically is just mind-breaking when you REALLY get down to it. At the end of the day the only thing I'd care about in religion is what happens after death primarily because that will affect me. I'm much happier in the aspect of, "We all have to face it, we all have the same fate. Let's treat everyone how we'd want to be treated, have a laugh and respect each other. Because at the end of the day we have no idea where we came from and we have no idea where we'll end up. It happens to us all though, and there is no avoiding it, so it's better to just grin and bear it then spend how ever many years dredding it."

i think i managed to agree with everything you said there. would like to add that atheists dont dread it because they dont believe heaven or hell exists, and have nothing to fear or look foward to.

where christians spend this life scoring god-points for the next one (and ultimately wasting it), atheists make the most of the only life they know they are going to have.

who knows, maybe soon science will progress so far as to ensure unlimited life, assuming of course the catholic fundie fucktards stop interfering with stem cell research etc.

Meh, as I say I tried atheism and when it comes to "there is no life after death" I ask what does that mean and they reply "well nothing happens, you just die". Now hang on a second. You mean you experience, nothing? I'd like you to try imagining that now. No smell, no touch, no taste, no sound, no sight...just nothing...a black void for eternity...that is scary to me then any hell that can be brought up in a catholics imagining. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, I dunno, hence why I think our conscious is seperate from our bodies.

Thing is I'm a registered catholic but I hate there YOU CAN'T DO THIS BECAUSE IT'S WEIRD thing (ie homosexuality). I tried atheism but the prospects of that were far more daunting then any other prospect (imho). So now I just try to enjoy what I can. Whatever fate has in store for me I'll face it the same way anyone does, clueless with only their memories to suck on before they leave...better make em good memories then ey?

To quote a much wiser man than me "I was dead for millions of years before my birth and it didn't inconvenience me in the slightest". Why is the idea your existence is finite and ultimately limited to a set portion of the space time continuum such a worry to you?

To be honest the idea that whatever part of me that is left after my id, ego and super ego die (and Im sorry to say it but so, will your memories) with my mindless essence imprisoned for the rest of eternity (be it in heaven or hell) strikes me as (if you pardon the expression) a fate worse than death.

Far better to die, have my existence immortalised in the 4 dimensional vector that is the places and times of my life, my genetic legacy and the ideas and works I left behind.

That is assuming brain in the jar technologies have not been perfected by the time of my death.

 

[Conor147]

Understand you too well... even though I say we should leave, I just cant leave the fact that I might get a small glimpse into what drives him. Hypocrisy ftw!

im waiting for you to finally attempt to justify your apparently ridiculous beliefs.

you still have not explained what faith is, why faith is a good reason to believe anything, or the mechainism by which faith makes you a better person

not responding until you attempt to do so. everything else is just drivel and a waste of my time.

 

[dkyros]

Bravo.

OT: Religion is a funny thing. Its based on a set of beliefs. So even if people can't be a Jedi at least give them the credit that they believe in something known as the Force which can be felt even if they are unable to access its awesomeness.

 

[Mad1Cow]

Meh, as I say I tried atheism and when it comes to "there is no life after death" I ask what does that mean and they reply "well nothing happens, you just die". Now hang on a second. You mean you experience, nothing? I'd like you to try imagining that now. No smell, no touch, no taste, no sound, no sight...just nothing...a black void for eternity...that is scary to me then any hell that can be brought up in a catholics imagining. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, I dunno, hence why I think our conscious is seperate from our bodies.

Thing is I'm a registered catholic but I hate there YOU CAN'T DO THIS BECAUSE IT'S WEIRD thing (ie homosexuality). I tried atheism but the prospects of that were far more daunting then any other prospect (imho). So now I just try to enjoy what I can. Whatever fate has in store for me I'll face it the same way anyone does, clueless with only their memories to suck on before they leave...better make em good memories then ey?

atheism is just a disbelief in god. you can be an atheist and believe theres an afterlife, just not that god is the warden. "trying" atheism just seems ridiculous. it sounds as if you are trying on shoes. whether or not its comfortable or fits has no bearing on whether or not its true.

and nothing happens after you die regardless of what you believe. what happens when people who are braindead die? all the neurons and synapses are rotted. their personality, memories etc are completely gone. do they regain that when they are biologically dead? what about clones, or split-brain patients?

when you take this whole afterlife to logical extremes, it doesnt hold water.

"No smell, no touch, no taste, no sound, no sight...just nothing...a black void for eternity...that is scary to me then any hell that can be brought up in a catholics imagining."

how do you sleep at night? (no pun intended). and like i said earlier, the 14 billion years youve already been dead dont seem to bother you.

When you sleep, you dream. It's your subconscious controlling your nervous system and senses to some respects.

Also I agree with you with the whole afterlife thing to some extent. See what with my thinking of the conscious self and the biological self being two different things that can't exist without the other, I do think that memories are stored biologically but when you look back at them and smile or cringe that is a conscious thing, something your "soul" will constantly think when shown anything like that.

Twins are technically clones of each other, but they turn out to be different people at the end of the day. This could be due to their experiences in life, but I don't think 2 people are ever exactly the same.

The lack of proof means that I can't believe/disbelieve in an afterlife, but there are many theories that can turn these beliefs into scientific theories. For example my friend has one where you go to wherever you believe (so catholics go to hell, christians go to heaven, buddhists stay in this world etc). He states that this is because there could be any number of alternate realities that you can't prove and you can drive your soul to them by focusing on that goal. Therefore when he dies, he wants to go to a world like pokemon. See, that was mostly BSing but it's a theory that can neither be proven nor disproven so I (personally) can't disbelieve that on the lack of evidence for either side.

My example has been stated over and over again here so I'll let you be the judge on the crazy meter. Personally though just follow the golden rule of "Live happy and don't hurt others" and you're pretty much fine in my books...

 

[Griff Morivan]

I'm a little disappointed to see all the people who think religion as a matter of social information doesn't matter.

 

[Sovereignty]

I think someone's failing at logic here.

This organization, if you can call it that wants people to tick, no religion to stop the government from spending money on religion at a local level... But I see that their motives hurt it far more then people writing Jedi.

The more people putting in religious beliefs that conflict with the norms drive down religious funding. After all how can your government make a Christian school, when 35% of people from the "I have a religion and it is xxxx" put down a different religion?

I'd personally be much less likely to fund religion if I knew beliefs were wide-spread. But if all I had to worry about were Christians and people who don't believe in anything? Well why the hell wouldn't I fund the religion? I'd be improving the situation for people who had faith and wouldn't be upsetting another religious group by neglecting theirs.



...Plus if they keep making Jedi a huge result eventually they'll have to accept it. And that'll be a complete win for the world.

 

[Mad1Cow]

how on earth is this an explanation of what faith is and how it works?

How am I supposed to answer that? Give me a solid question, and ill provide. Examples:

"Do you see God as an intellectual being?"
"What about bad emotions? Is there a counterpart to sway people that way?"
"In my life this and this happened, where was God then?"

Have to say that is a very valid point...asking how faith works is like asking what is the meaning of life (and if anyone says 42 I'mma gonna slap you silly). It's far too general a question and faith works with many different people in many different ways.

Examples of such include the whole comfort in death (something which I've been through, hnnng). Comfort in the fact that people you know and love have gone somewhere better and aren't in missery. Making the world seem much less harsh and random. There are many examples.

Now I know I basically just said "comforting" a lot and that's probably the most part or it from what I've gathered. It's giving life meaning and all that malarky. To me faith is like the internet. It's a powerful thing and can be used to either benefit the world or ruin it...

 

[Pilkingtube]

How has this light-hearted news post managed to drag out into 21 pages of comments? I'm baffled. :/

 

[Conor147]

When you sleep, you dream. It's your subconscious controlling your nervous system and senses to some respects.

Also I agree with you with the whole afterlife thing to some extent. See what with my thinking of the conscious self and the biological self being two different things that can't exist without the other, I do think that memories are stored biologically but when you look back at them and smile or cringe that is a conscious thing, something your "soul" will constantly think when shown anything like that.

Twins are technically clones of each other, but they turn out to be different people at the end of the day. This could be due to their experiences in life, but I don't think 2 people are ever exactly the same.

The lack of proof means that I can't believe/disbelieve in an afterlife, but there are many theories that can turn these beliefs into scientific theories. For example my friend has one where you go to wherever you believe (so catholics go to hell, christians go to heaven, buddhists stay in this world etc). He states that this is because there could be any number of alternate realities that you can't prove and you can drive your soul to them by focusing on that goal. Therefore when he dies, he wants to go to a world like pokemon. See, that was mostly BSing but it's a theory that can neither be proven nor disproven so I (personally) can't disbelieve that on the lack of evidence for either side.

My example has been stated over and over again here so I'll let you be the judge on the crazy meter. Personally though just follow the golden rule of "Live happy and don't hurt others" and you're pretty much fine in my books...

1. nobody knows how the soul interacts with the body. since its immaterial, physical things cannot influence it, yet it somehow communicates with the brain and vice versa.
2. the idea of a soul raises many questions about relativity. if the soul doesn't occupy our universe, then it shouldn't experience time. since we do feel time, it cannot be immaterial. since it occupies our universe, this raises many questions about its composition. is it made of the basic particles of which all matter is comprised? if it's an entirely different type of particle, what's its mass? is it influenced by the four fundamental forces? whats its charge? How does it manage to hold your consciousness? none of these questions have ever been answered. therefore, using the soul to explain something is using a term that isn't defined.
3. just what information does the soul contain? science has proven that certain parts of our physical brain are used for emotions, other parts are used for memory, logical thinking, and the pacing of ones breath and heartbeat. damage to a certain part of the brain can drastically affect one's personality, memory, or thought processes. and if the soul contains our memories, then what is the point of our memories being stored in our physical brain as well? Is alzheimer's or amnesia a problem with the brain or a problem with the soul?
4. the introduction of certain chemical drugs to the brain can drastically change one's thoughts, memories, behavior, emotions, judgment, etc. are these drugs somehow acting on the soul and changing properties of the soul?

consideration of all these issues (and the ones i mentioned earlier) goes a long way to determining whether or not a soul is possible, or likely, at least for me.

 

[Conor147]

Finally some clear questions! Took only 4 hours

My faith is that there exist a natural force which sways people to do good and be good. Its not a puppet master, but the little thing in the back of your head saying "is this really what you should do? wouldnt it be better to aproach this another way?" Its your choice to follow that. If you follow, you get rewarded, not in any form of physical goods and prizes, but with happiness, good conscience and nicer people around you. If you dont... well, then anything can happen, both good and bad. Events on a daily basis proves this to me over and over.

If all followed this instead of standing by some rules theyve deluded themselves to be "the only right way", the world would be a better place. People would avoid conflicts, would supress their need to make others feel small and we would generally be a more calm and tolerant people.

This makes me a better person by trying to listen to that voice in there whenever I feel like being a asshole. Am I a good follower? In some ways yes, in other ways no. Im much more tolerant than I was, accepting ideas I found retarded before. Im calmer and seldom get stressed out. On the other hand intolerance, nomatter what sort, makes me far from a gentle and nice person. The only thing I cannot tolerate, is the intolerant. So im not a perfect christian. But I do believe im better than the average person in the world. Its at least something to try to achieve.

Questions? Please, without ridicule, its getting tiresome.

thats not faith, thats morality. morality is innate to all humans. the "voice in your head" that differentiates right from wrong is the result of evolution by natural selection. humans are social and live in groups. the ones that were anti-social and didnt like to co-operate were less successful and died off. the humans that are left propagate, and result in us.

piranhas are not religious. yet they dont ever devour each other. morality is innate.

notice how atheists, like piranhas, are also not religious and also dont devour each other.

am i correct in saying that you confused morality with religion and faith? if not, could you elaborate?

EDIT:

"Any animal whatever, endowed with well-marked social instincts, the parental and filial affections being here included, would inevitably acquire a moral sense or conscience, as soon as its intellectual powers had become as well developed, or nearly as well developed, as in man."

? Charles Darwin

 

[Mad1Cow]

Understand you too well... even though I say we should leave, I just cant leave the fact that I might get a small glimpse into what drives him. Hypocrisy ftw!

im waiting for you to finally attempt to justify your apparently ridiculous beliefs.

you still have not explained what faith is, why faith is a good reason to believe anything, or the mechainism by which faith makes you a better person

not responding until you attempt to do so. everything else is just drivel and a waste of my time.

Finally some clear questions! Took only 4 hours

My faith is that there exist a natural force which sways people to do good and be good. Its not a puppet master, but the little thing in the back of your head saying "is this really what you should do? wouldnt it be better to aproach this another way?" Its your choice to follow that. If you follow, you get rewarded, not in any form of physical goods and prizes, but with happiness, good conscience and nicer people around you. If you dont... well, then anything can happen, both good and bad. Events on a daily basis proves this to me over and over.

If all followed this instead of standing by some rules theyve deluded themselves to be "the only right way", the world would be a better place. People would avoid conflicts, would supress their need to make others feel small and we would generally be a more calm and tolerant people.

This makes me a better person by trying to listen to that voice in there whenever I feel like being a asshole. Am I a good follower? In some ways yes, in other ways no. Im much more tolerant than I was, accepting ideas I found retarded before. Im calmer and seldom get stressed out. On the other hand intolerance, nomatter what sort, makes me far from a gentle and nice person. The only thing I cannot tolerate, is the intolerant. So im not a perfect christian. But I do believe im better than the average person in the world. Its at least something to try to achieve.

Questions? Please, without ridicule, its getting tiresome.

I only have one question about this view. What happens with grey area? Ya know a typical one being "stealing to feed a starving family". Good is in the eye of the beholder to me, heck Hitler thought he was doing good and being righteous, that's what made him scary. Not a critcism just something I'd like a lot of religions to fully answer.

See this is why I literally follow the idea of cycles and balance. You do a deed you get it back (kharma). Whether there's a higher entity who judges me, heck I dunno, if so he's been judging me wrong but meh again that's in the eye of the beholder. The natural world follows cycles and balance (food chains, water cycle etc) so why don't we? Seems the most logical...

(not sure if I'm contradicting myself in this thread...probably but meh, "at this current time" feelings are much more relevant to get off my chest then anything else I have going on =P )

 

[Mad1Cow]

How has this light-hearted news post managed to drag out into 21 pages of comments? I'm baffled. :/

Hello >=3

 

[Mad1Cow]

1. nobody knows how the soul interacts with the body. since its immaterial, physical things cannot influence it, yet it somehow communicates with the brain and vice versa.
2. the idea of a soul raises many questions about relativity. if the soul doesn't occupy our universe, then it shouldn't experience time. since we do feel time, it cannot be immaterial. since it occupies our universe, this raises many questions about its composition. is it made of the basic particles of which all matter is comprised? if it's an entirely different type of particle, what's its mass? is it influenced by the four fundamental forces? whats its charge? How does it manage to hold your consciousness? none of these questions have ever been answered. therefore, using the soul to explain something is using a term that isn't defined.
3. just what information does the soul contain? science has proven that certain parts of our physical brain are used for emotions, other parts are used for memory, logical thinking, and the pacing of ones breath and heartbeat. damage to a certain part of the brain can drastically affect one's personality, memory, or thought processes. and if the soul contains our memories, then what is the point of our memories being stored in our physical brain as well? Is alzheimer's or amnesia a problem with the brain or a problem with the soul?
4. the introduction of certain chemical drugs to the brain can drastically change one's thoughts, memories, behavior, emotions, judgment, etc. are these drugs somehow acting on the soul and changing properties of the soul?

consideration of all these issues (and the ones i mentioned earlier) goes a long way to determining whether or not a soul is possible, or likely, at least for me.

This literally reminds me of this:
http://lifeafterdeath.info/

Anyway several things have been said here I feel I need to cover. OK in no particular order:
1) I had been skirting around the whole idea of a "soul" for this matter actually, it raises completely different questions and is easily thought to be disproven when really it just seems highly unlikely.
2) There are some things that we can't properly gauge via scientific method. For example I'm pretty sure you've sat down with someone and you get a certain vibe from them. You can't help it, you just feel it from them. Sure it can change when you get to know the person better but still there is a certain feeling you get being around certain people that just can't be measured in my view (though this may be disproven later on in the thread).
3) Though all those scientific terms are accurate and factors we still don't know ALL the particles that existed ever. For example dark energy still can't be explained and I know scientists who think it could explain the whole life thing after all. There are also such things like wave-particle duality that is most well-known for affecting light (it's basically where a particle can become an energy wave and vice versa, for the uneducated few =P ). Also there are concepts which we haven't even conceived of that could be discovered. There is still a lot we don't know about how everything works.
4) Yes while drugs change peoples brain activities and can change memories and blah de bluh blah blehck it could just be the whole body getting confused as it extracts certain things from the soul etc. Also I've seen people under these effects but their underlying qualities still shine through. To me a soul defines certain set things, while your bodies' brain and also your experiences in life help mix with that soul to form a personality for your right now. The basis of characteristics so to speak. Again though that is OPINION and not fact, take your own view and whatever...

 

[roflmecopter]

What if I get a red pen and scrawl BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD across religion.

Will they file that under 'other'?

OMG my lungs xD

 

[Conor147]

1. nobody knows how the soul interacts with the body. since its immaterial, physical things cannot influence it, yet it somehow communicates with the brain and vice versa.
2. the idea of a soul raises many questions about relativity. if the soul doesn't occupy our universe, then it shouldn't experience time. since we do feel time, it cannot be immaterial. since it occupies our universe, this raises many questions about its composition. is it made of the basic particles of which all matter is comprised? if it's an entirely different type of particle, what's its mass? is it influenced by the four fundamental forces? whats its charge? How does it manage to hold your consciousness? none of these questions have ever been answered. therefore, using the soul to explain something is using a term that isn't defined.
3. just what information does the soul contain? science has proven that certain parts of our physical brain are used for emotions, other parts are used for memory, logical thinking, and the pacing of ones breath and heartbeat. damage to a certain part of the brain can drastically affect one's personality, memory, or thought processes. and if the soul contains our memories, then what is the point of our memories being stored in our physical brain as well? Is alzheimer's or amnesia a problem with the brain or a problem with the soul?
4. the introduction of certain chemical drugs to the brain can drastically change one's thoughts, memories, behavior, emotions, judgment, etc. are these drugs somehow acting on the soul and changing properties of the soul?

consideration of all these issues (and the ones i mentioned earlier) goes a long way to determining whether or not a soul is possible, or likely, at least for me.

This literally reminds me of this:
http://lifeafterdeath.info/

Anyway several things have been said here I feel I need to cover. OK in no particular order:
1) I had been skirting around the whole idea of a "soul" for this matter actually, it raises completely different questions and is easily thought to be disproven when really it just seems highly unlikely.
2) There are some things that we can't properly gauge via scientific method. For example I'm pretty sure you've sat down with someone and you get a certain vibe from them. You can't help it, you just feel it from them. Sure it can change when you get to know the person better but still there is a certain feeling you get being around certain people that just can't be measured in my view (though this may be disproven later on in the thread).
3) Though all those scientific terms are accurate and factors we still don't know ALL the particles that existed ever. For example dark energy still can't be explained and I know scientists who think it could explain the whole life thing after all. There are also such things like wave-particle duality that is most well-known for affecting light (it's basically where a particle can become an energy wave and vice versa, for the uneducated few =P ). Also there are concepts which we haven't even conceived of that could be discovered. There is still a lot we don't know about how everything works.
4) Yes while drugs change peoples brain activities and can change memories and blah de bluh blah blehck it could just be the whole body getting confused as it extracts certain things from the soul etc. Also I've seen people under these effects but their underlying qualities still shine through. To me a soul defines certain set things, while your bodies' brain and also your experiences in life help mix with that soul to form a personality for your right now. The basis of characteristics so to speak. Again though that is OPINION and not fact, take your own view and whatever...

"There are some things that we can't properly gauge via scientific method. For example I'm pretty sure you've sat down with someone and you get a certain vibe from them. You can't help it, you just feel it from them. Sure it can change when you get to know the person better but still there is a certain feeling you get being around certain people that just can't be measured in my view (though this may be disproven later on in the thread)."

yep, thats neuroscience. its moving forward quickly. even if its unknown, to assert that it will always be is foolish. god of the gaps.

"Though all those scientific terms are accurate and factors we still don't know ALL the particles that existed ever. For example dark energy still can't be explained and I know scientists who think it could explain the whole life thing after all. There are also such things like wave-particle duality that is most well-known for affecting light (it's basically where a particle can become an energy wave and vice versa, for the uneducated few =P ). Also there are concepts which we haven't even conceived of that could be discovered. There is still a lot we don't know about how everything works."

god of the gaps.

"Yes while drugs change peoples brain activities and can change memories and blah de bluh blah blehck it could just be the whole body getting confused as it extracts certain things from the soul etc. Also I've seen people under these effects but their underlying qualities still shine through. To me a soul defines certain set things, while your bodies' brain and also your experiences in life help mix with that soul to form a personality for your right now. The basis of characteristics so to speak. Again though that is OPINION and not fact, take your own view and whatever..."

their underlying qualities still shine through because their brain is only suppressed, not incapacitated. all the evidence points away from the soul controlling anything and towards the brain controlling everything.