UK Atheists Hope to Eliminate Jedi Population

[Mad1Cow]

This literally reminds me of this:
http://lifeafterdeath.info/

Anyway several things have been said here I feel I need to cover. OK in no particular order:
1) I had been skirting around the whole idea of a "soul" for this matter actually, it raises completely different questions and is easily thought to be disproven when really it just seems highly unlikely.
2) There are some things that we can't properly gauge via scientific method. For example I'm pretty sure you've sat down with someone and you get a certain vibe from them. You can't help it, you just feel it from them. Sure it can change when you get to know the person better but still there is a certain feeling you get being around certain people that just can't be measured in my view (though this may be disproven later on in the thread).
3) Though all those scientific terms are accurate and factors we still don't know ALL the particles that existed ever. For example dark energy still can't be explained and I know scientists who think it could explain the whole life thing after all. There are also such things like wave-particle duality that is most well-known for affecting light (it's basically where a particle can become an energy wave and vice versa, for the uneducated few =P ). Also there are concepts which we haven't even conceived of that could be discovered. There is still a lot we don't know about how everything works.
4) Yes while drugs change peoples brain activities and can change memories and blah de bluh blah blehck it could just be the whole body getting confused as it extracts certain things from the soul etc. Also I've seen people under these effects but their underlying qualities still shine through. To me a soul defines certain set things, while your bodies' brain and also your experiences in life help mix with that soul to form a personality for your right now. The basis of characteristics so to speak. Again though that is OPINION and not fact, take your own view and whatever...

"There are some things that we can't properly gauge via scientific method. For example I'm pretty sure you've sat down with someone and you get a certain vibe from them. You can't help it, you just feel it from them. Sure it can change when you get to know the person better but still there is a certain feeling you get being around certain people that just can't be measured in my view (though this may be disproven later on in the thread)."

yep, thats neuroscience. its moving forward quickly. even if its unknown, to assert that it will always be is foolish. god of the gaps.

"Though all those scientific terms are accurate and factors we still don't know ALL the particles that existed ever. For example dark energy still can't be explained and I know scientists who think it could explain the whole life thing after all. There are also such things like wave-particle duality that is most well-known for affecting light (it's basically where a particle can become an energy wave and vice versa, for the uneducated few =P ). Also there are concepts which we haven't even conceived of that could be discovered. There is still a lot we don't know about how everything works."

god of the gaps.

"Yes while drugs change peoples brain activities and can change memories and blah de bluh blah blehck it could just be the whole body getting confused as it extracts certain things from the soul etc. Also I've seen people under these effects but their underlying qualities still shine through. To me a soul defines certain set things, while your bodies' brain and also your experiences in life help mix with that soul to form a personality for your right now. The basis of characteristics so to speak. Again though that is OPINION and not fact, take your own view and whatever..."

their underlying qualities still shine through because their brain is only suppressed, not incapacitated. all the evidence points away from the soul controlling anything and towards the brain controlling everything.

Well I agree the soul doesn't control anything, however it flavours it. The brain ultimately decides "YOU THERE, FIST, HIT THAT MAN!!!" and so your fist complies. I think of the brain as a good piece of minced beef in a chilli. It's the main part and ultimately the chilli (person as a whole) couldn't exist without it. The chilli spice is what flavours it. It doesn't control it but it has a necessary sway over what the chilli will come out like. I'm probably not doing metaphor too good but meh that seems logical as I'm writing it. Stop me if you differ...

 

[headphonegirl]

I live in the UK and I will put jedi as a from of protest. Althrough I do not really belive in any religion, and while I agree that some of the questions in the census are usefull to the government I do not belive that it is any of their bussiness what I do and do not belive in. Other questions ask if you have ever or are currently feeling depressed or what your general mood is. Here is my respones Mr.Cameron. MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!

I agree man, screw you cameron i'm not telling you a thing about myself!
<< should note that her parents are the ones who have to fill the form in not her.

 

[Conor147]

Morality is vague. Piranhas start eating their prey while its still alive, yet, if they had the ability to listen to that voice (I believe certain animals can, depends on their stage in evolution) they wouldve ended the creatures missery fast, then eat it. They dont, cause their "morality" doesnt include that.

A tribe practicing human sacrifice would through their morality see it as bad to hinder a sacrifice, but it is a well known fact that certain individuals in these kind of tribes often rebel. What triggers that is what i believe to be God (but the rebel choose himself to follow it). Ofc, they end up getting slaughtered, but the moment they rose up, they felt they did the right thing. That was their reward.

Is God an universal law? Its a very though question. What if one wants to be sacrificed, yet you can "save" them and drag them to the nice tribe living nextdoor. But then you wouldve gone against the one who were gonna be sacrificed's (we call him Jim now) wishes, thereby not spreading joy, rather denying it. Then again, if you have done something like that, you have to make it right: teach Jim why his way of life is a waste, explain how a sacrifice would be a silly way to appease a god and so on. Ultimately, you have made Jim very happy (if you succeed). So both yes and no: God sways you to do the right thing ultimatedly, as long as you stick with following that feeling.

A second dilemma is the psychopath: The person who sees himself as perfect and everyone else as something less. Is he happy with himself? He appears so, but we will not know for sure. Maybe he got an internal struggle, hating himself for not being more? I like to believe so, or in other words: I got faith in that evil people, nomatter how they appear, are not happy. A mafia boss is rich as fuck, but will always dread getting backstabbed or loosing it all. A thief fear getting caught.

Atheists are not religious. God doesnt abandon them. Atheists still get that nudge, and can also choose to follow it. As ive stated, God cares little of our earthly words and trinkets. All in all, its up to if youre good. An atheist would dissagree with me, either claiming that nudge is his conscience or part of who he is. Im not saying hes wrong, Im saying I dont believe so.

How can I claim that nudge isnt my personality? Because, in my experience, that nudge makes me often concider things I would never have come up with. Like for example going rational about this to you. Your former posts have left me with a feeling you will never understand my faith, but that little nudge makes me give it a shot. Nomatter how you choose to react to this, I will be happy I tried being nice and going the diplomatic way.

Hope this clearified a bit. Anything else?

"Morality is vague. Piranhas start eating their prey while its still alive, yet, if they had the ability to listen to that voice (I believe certain animals can, depends on their stage in evolution) they wouldve ended the creatures missery fast, then eat it. They dont, cause their "morality" doesnt include that."

thats not what i was alluding to. i was talking about how piranhas are never observed to eat each other.

"A tribe practicing human sacrifice would through their morality see it as bad to hinder a sacrifice, but it is a well known fact that certain individuals in these kind of tribes often rebel. What triggers that is what i believe to be God (but the rebel choose himself to follow it). Ofc, they end up getting slaughtered, but the moment they rose up, they felt they did the right thing. That was their reward."

plenty of serial killers engage in necrophilia with the dead bodies of people theyve just brutally murdered, then they say they felt good and want to do it again. is that god giving them a reward for murdering someone, to encourage them to do it more?

"How can I claim that nudge isnt my personality? Because, in my experience, that nudge makes me often concider things I would never have come up with. Like for example going rational about this to you. Your former posts have left me with a feeling you will never understand my faith, but that little nudge makes me give it a shot. Nomatter how you choose to react to this, I will be happy I tried being nice and going the diplomatic way."

i understand what you have explained, but i reject it as i see it as being inconsistent with my understanding of neuroscience and biology, which has been demonstrated to me to be true and internally and externally consistent and concordant.

you appear to think that morality = god. and you claim to be a christian. then why does the bible condone slavery? why does the bible encourage polygamy and hate homosexuals and women? if you are a christian then this is a massive problem.

 

[Grainwald]

Any thread that brings up religion is guaranteed to get at least 20 pages.

 

[DanDeFool]

I don't care if people pick jedi because if I got my info right the religion was around BEFORE the movies and that gorge Lucas used the belief to base a sci-fi movie of it not the other way round. But if people pick jedi as a joke then don't

Well... it's better than Scientology. Less blatantly exploitative, anyway.

Still, I can see their point. Atheists want people to know that not choosing to believe is a valid option in a world in which having a devout faith is still the norm. Having people prefer to associate with a fake religion over no religion at all kind of (but not really) undercuts their message.

 

[mikespoff]

Nooo! Fight the evil Jedi-haters!

 

[Continuity]

They have said they won't do this, though - putative 'Jedis' will be treated the same as those who have ignored the question. (And in fairness, making a question optional makes the data fairly suspect anyway). So yes, I think that is a significant difference. These people have some reason for making a statement like that - even if it's a joke, it's a very specific joke, one that is at the expense of organised religion. And I think the movement towards secularism (as opposed to atheism) in the UK is really important, not least because of the faith school issue.

But its not a joke at the expense of organised religion, and what exactly is the faith school issue? They're great, I went to one, what's the problem there exactly?

Yes, that's all great, but this census isn't about being recognised as a social group. It would be great if it did - I think it would be genuinely interesting to have a question that said something like 'if you had to use one word to describe yourself and the community of people you most belong to, what would it be?' In many ways I think that would tell us a lot more about the demographics of this country than asking about religion - there's a big difference between being a christian and *identifying* yourself as a Christian, (and similarly 'gay', 'black', 'English' or 'gamer' - a single person could be all of these, and being forced to choose one as the single most important part of their identity would be a really interesting challenge).

yeah ok, the question is about religion, sure. But that doesn't stop people using it as a vehicle for expression, its not actually that often that the government actually asks us something other than which electoral candidate we vote for.

Anyway, you conveniently ignored one of my reasons (well two actually but thats cool), I don't actually want to tick the atheist box (nor do I want to just leave the question) because I do not support the atheist agenda, I think our country is secular enough already.
"Jedi" is a convenient, and amusing, third way which also makes several minor statements:- such as 1) I'm a nerd 2) I value creative media (relevant re the contentious issues surrounding computer games) 3) We (the British) as a people have a sense of humour... we're not all rake-up-ass borg drones just yet.

Anyway, my point is: by putting Jedi you're not making any statement at all. Your voice isn't being heard, it's making no impact on policy in any way.

Let me guess... someone is ticking the "rake-up-ass atheist" box ^^ anyway, the contrary is clearly true, the Jedi voice is being heard, this very discussion is evidence of that. As for policy... well I like to think policy rides on the wings of expressed public opinion, maybe not directly, but eventually, by some Byzantine osmosis... maybe....hell, nothing ventured.

 

[Conor147]

Morality is vague. Piranhas start eating their prey while its still alive, yet, if they had the ability to listen to that voice (I believe certain animals can, depends on their stage in evolution) they wouldve ended the creatures missery fast, then eat it. They dont, cause their "morality" doesnt include that.

A tribe practicing human sacrifice would through their morality see it as bad to hinder a sacrifice, but it is a well known fact that certain individuals in these kind of tribes often rebel. What triggers that is what i believe to be God (but the rebel choose himself to follow it). Ofc, they end up getting slaughtered, but the moment they rose up, they felt they did the right thing. That was their reward.

Is God an universal law? Its a very though question. What if one wants to be sacrificed, yet you can "save" them and drag them to the nice tribe living nextdoor. But then you wouldve gone against the one who were gonna be sacrificed's (we call him Jim now) wishes, thereby not spreading joy, rather denying it. Then again, if you have done something like that, you have to make it right: teach Jim why his way of life is a waste, explain how a sacrifice would be a silly way to appease a god and so on. Ultimately, you have made Jim very happy (if you succeed). So both yes and no: God sways you to do the right thing ultimatedly, as long as you stick with following that feeling.

A second dilemma is the psychopath: The person who sees himself as perfect and everyone else as something less. Is he happy with himself? He appears so, but we will not know for sure. Maybe he got an internal struggle, hating himself for not being more? I like to believe so, or in other words: I got faith in that evil people, nomatter how they appear, are not happy. A mafia boss is rich as fuck, but will always dread getting backstabbed or loosing it all. A thief fear getting caught.

Atheists are not religious. God doesnt abandon them. Atheists still get that nudge, and can also choose to follow it. As ive stated, God cares little of our earthly words and trinkets. All in all, its up to if youre good. An atheist would dissagree with me, either claiming that nudge is his conscience or part of who he is. Im not saying hes wrong, Im saying I dont believe so.

How can I claim that nudge isnt my personality? Because, in my experience, that nudge makes me often concider things I would never have come up with. Like for example going rational about this to you. Your former posts have left me with a feeling you will never understand my faith, but that little nudge makes me give it a shot. Nomatter how you choose to react to this, I will be happy I tried being nice and going the diplomatic way.

Hope this clearified a bit. Anything else?

"Morality is vague. Piranhas start eating their prey while its still alive, yet, if they had the ability to listen to that voice (I believe certain animals can, depends on their stage in evolution) they wouldve ended the creatures missery fast, then eat it. They dont, cause their "morality" doesnt include that."

thats not what i was alluding to. i was talking about how piranhas are never observed to eat each other.

"A tribe practicing human sacrifice would through their morality see it as bad to hinder a sacrifice, but it is a well known fact that certain individuals in these kind of tribes often rebel. What triggers that is what i believe to be God (but the rebel choose himself to follow it). Ofc, they end up getting slaughtered, but the moment they rose up, they felt they did the right thing. That was their reward."

plenty of serial killers engage in necrophilia with the dead bodies of people theyve just brutally murdered, then they say they felt good and want to do it again. is that god giving them a reward?

"How can I claim that nudge isnt my personality? Because, in my experience, that nudge makes me often concider things I would never have come up with. Like for example going rational about this to you. Your former posts have left me with a feeling you will never understand my faith, but that little nudge makes me give it a shot. Nomatter how you choose to react to this, I will be happy I tried being nice and going the diplomatic way."

i understand what you have explained, but i reject it as i see it as being inconsistent with my understanding of neuroscience and biology, which has been demonstrated to me to be true and internally and externally consistent and concordant.

you appear to think that morality = god. and you claim to be a christian. then why does the bible condone slavery? why does the bible encourage polygamy and hate homosexuals and women? if you are a christian then this is a massive problem.

This is gonna be a long one....

Piranhas dont eat eachother because of their morality, or instinct, tell em not to. They cant percieve the nudge (its a silly term I know, but you get the idea) because theyre not evolved enough to be able to consider what it is and how to react to it.

I never said all good feelings are rewards from God. I said if you follow the nudge, you get rewarded with happiness and good feelings nomatter what. The necro-murderer might feel good atm, a joy of the flesh, but locked inside, no one to talk to and denied corpses to molest, you believe he is happy? He might be, but if so its not Gods work.

We dissagree what the nudge is, and that is understandable since you have been presented with information in such a way that my idea either seems outlandish, wishful or just dumb. If you feel its the latter, I hope you follow the nudge and instead of ridiculing me try to explain why im wrong, or just accept im ignorant and not hurting anyone that way

As for the bible... the reason for the hate towards my faith... its a love/hate relationship I guess. The old testament isnt part of my faith, although Jesus might state the old laws still abides. We must consider this book was written over 2000 years ago, by man! Its not Gods direct words, and its very open for interpretation. If youre gonna read the bible, you have to get into the mindset of that society.

Take homosexuality. Is it stoned to death for that? You know what else the bible states you get killed for? Shaving. Yup, its hygiene rules. Performing sodomy at that time was a huge dissease spreader, so was shaving. Now, what is easiest? Explaining to a person the deep mechanics of infections and rotting of flesh, or just saying "DONT DO IT OR SOMETHING BIG AND SCARY WILL SMITE YA!". Yup, the author went for the latter...

My overrall view on the bible is, as Jesus puts it, "not to focus on the small details, but the greater meaning: to be good". The details are guidelines, interpreted and written by man, and man is flawed.

This leaves a valid point that every christian just choose the few things that they like from the bible and go with that, and ignore the parts that doesnt fit them. This is the wrong way to approach the bible. The greater meaning is "be good, and others will be good to you" and that should overrule any small footnote or chapter.

All in all, protecting the bible is like protecting the quaran for me (sort of). I follow christian values, but my faith wasnt created from christianity. Its more something I realised myself, and after reading the bible going "wow, this is very similar to my belief, guess im christian". Though Ive stopped calling myself that. I say im religious, since saying youre christian is bound to incite hatred around you

Sorry for not watching the video, films of people claiming im wrong/stupid/etc without me being able to answer back to them is just provoking, and im no masochist

im presenting the video so i dont need to type it all. the video is an accurate representation of my position and is a good rebuttal of much of what youve said.

"Explaining to a person the deep mechanics of infections and rotting of flesh"

the dudes that wrote the bible had no idea of germ theory. germ theory was proposed by louis pasteur a LONG time after the bible was written. they were completely ignorant of modern science. they believed the earth was flat, that adam and eve are the source of man, that god created earth in 6 days. etc. etc. to say they thought it would be easier to omit such knowledge in favour of a threat, is quite simply, absurd.

its taking a lot of effort for me to not ridicule your responses. anyone intelligent person reading this conversation is likely to either feel angry or laugh. to be honest, i actually cant be bothered with this any more. i kept up with this because i thought you were honest and intelligent and were just slightly poisoned by religion, just harbouring a small amount of bullshit. but it seems to me that you have a large collection of insane and unjustified bullshit. you keep making up excuses ad-hoc, clearly with very little thought, in order to attempt to address gaping holes in your logic. youre just patching up holes with bigger holes. rationalising bronze age homophobia with health concerns? thats the biggest load of bullshit ive ever heard. i dont want to hear your rationalisation for the condoning of slavery.

as i said earlier, use evidence to reach your conclusions. faith doesnt seem to be serving you very well. it doesnt seem to manage to filter out bullshit properly.

im out.

 

[Jegsimmons]

why is it everytime normal people are haveing a nice time to themselves...some bastard group has to ruin it...if people want to be jedi or sith have at it. Jedis rule.

 

[Choppaduel]

Why do they even need to know? They have no reason to care.
I'm still fucking putting Jedi.

/facepalm

read the article again, also read this:

"The data gathered is used to inform government policy, and was used by the last government to justify funding of religious community bodies over secular ones. For example, 2001 census data has been used repeatedly to justify an increase in the number of state maintained faith schools and the increasing level of government money spent on faith organisations.

By ticking 'No Religion', you will ensure that the Government receives an unambiguous message about the number of non-religious people in the UK. Any other response may be manipulated into a response in favour of religion and publically funded religious organisations."

source: http://www.yourenotajedi.com/

/facepalm

As I said to the other guy, the government, believe it or not, are actually intelligent enough to work out that people who put Jedi aren't particularly religious. They would not seriously point at the Jedi community as a reason to build religious places.

/facepalm

If you had said that in the first place. You wouldn't have to deal with all the quoted messages in your inbox.

 

[Continuity]

What if I get a red pen and scrawl BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD across religion.

Will they file that under 'other'?

OMG my lungs xD

Chaos cultist, obviously. in fact I think there's a tick box for that, or maybe I dreamed it, I dream strange things: like last night I had this dream about worlds scrolling though the sky like a string of pearls, and there was a pub which I wouldn't leave, but then I did leave to go rowing but then I turned back to the pub because my fiend's wife called and said it was too hot.

 

[Mad1Cow]

im presenting the video so i dont need to type it all. the video is an accurate representation of my position and is a good rebuttal of much of what youve said.

"Explaining to a person the deep mechanics of infections and rotting of flesh"

the dudes that wrote the bible had no idea of germ theory. germ theory was proposed by louis pasteur a LONG time after the bible was written. they were completely ignorant of modern science. they believed the earth was flat, that adam and eve are the source of man, that god created earth in 6 days. etc. etc. to say they thought it would be easier to omit such knowledge in favour of a threat, is quite simply, absurd.

its taking a lot of effort for me to not ridicule your responses. anyone intelligent person reading this conversation is likely to either feel angry or laugh. to be honest, i actually cant be bothered with this any more. i kept up with this because i thought you were honest and intelligent and were just slightly poisoned by religion, just harbouring a small amount of bullshit. but it seems to me that you have a large collection of insane and unjustified bullshit. you keep making up excuses ad-hoc, clearly with very little thought, in order to attempt to address gaping holes in your logic. youre just patching up holes with bigger holes. rationalising bronze age homophobia with health concerns? thats the biggest load of bullshit ive ever heard. i dont want to hear your rationalisation for the condoning of slavery.

as i said earlier, use evidence to reach your conclusions. faith doesnt seem to be serving you very well. it doesnt seem to manage to filter out bullshit properly.

im out.

And we're back to where I lose your views. This person (Haakong I mean) has shown his opinion and has not forced it upon you but explained how in his mind it all works and SINCE THERE IS NO DEFINITIVE ANSWER everyone is entitled to believe what they want. He hasn't hurt anyone with his beliefs and he hasn't attempted to convert you. You're just so wrapped up in logic you can't seem to appreciate other peoples views. This is where the general view of atheism=arrogant.

Now before all atheists get arsey with me, I happen to agree with a lot of what atheists believe. It's when it's all BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME THEREFORE IT ISN'T RIGHT that makes me want to go on a murderous rampage. "Faith" means it doesn't have to make sense, your mind fills in the blanks and sidesteps those holes. I'd like to point out a common example of this not used in religion (that I've actually spent some years studying). HEY ever watch a film? Ever sit down and think, "that is so unbelievable how X went and blew up Y with a police car ramming into it"? I'm willing to bet that on the majority most people didn't, instead they were trying to engage with the characters and focus on the plot. In hindsight maybe but at the time you don't really go into a film and try to pick out all the stupid elements, you go to enjoy something. Well think of "Faith" like that, it's more that you're so focused on the big picture instead of the nitty gritty details.

If anything throughout this entire thing you've been trying to convert people from their so called "deluded" beliefs. Call me cruel but it's true, picking out his own personal beliefs and disproving them before his face is like walking into a church and saying how Jesus was a drunken ass who was just a medieval celebrity. It's possible but you're gonna get a lot of hate from it because you went and urinated in their holy water. Let other people BELIEVE what they want no matter how crazy it may seem to you.

Quite frankly I've had enough of this too, clearly I thought higher of you but instead you're on the level of Jehovah's Witness to me. Go back to your beliefs, express them if you wish, but don't go forcing other people's views to change.

Over and out!

 

[klaynexas3]

right, the jedi should not be allowed to become a real religion, if they do, us siths are fucked. i saw the movies, i know how it'll turn out if we let them become masters of the force. only the dark side can be allowed to have it MUAHAHAHA

 

[Abengoshis]

How about people stop arguing like they know everything about the subject they're arguing about?

Walls of text which gibber on about how the writer is right plague threads like these. I'm sure there's tonnes of hypocritical posts too, from both sides. Haven't any of you got anything better to do other than pretend you know everything about science/your religion and ramble about it in a futile attempt to deconvert/convert the other person?

I think people are arguing because it makes them feel good about themselves if they 'win'. Its sad doing that at someone else's expense. Play a game or something, jeez.

Structure of religious arguments:
-One side says something which the other side agrees with...
-Second side tries to argue back.
-First side responds with a counter argument. (And an insult)
-Second side responds with a wall of text they probably don't understand fully themselves.
-First side responds in the same way.
-Repeat last two steps a few times.
-One side says they've had enough and insults the second side further.
-That side doesn't give up, though, and continues posting walls of text.
-Other side does the same.
and so on...
...
...
...until the thread is locked or one side is mature enough to ignore the other side's opposing opinion.

Neither side wins. Both still hold to their views.


EDIT: I forgot to add that both sides use the longest words possible, especially those never said in normal speech and even more so those they've found in synonym searches. These complicated looking words make them 'look more intelligent'. People no longer argue with points, they argue by trying to sound posher than each other, and equivocate (see what I did there...) as much as possible.

 

[Themaddoctor]

I put Jedi, bite me.