I assume one will come with the steam box, so I'll make my judgement then, If I don't like it, I can buy a $20 keyboard and mouse bundle and use that.
Valve Reveals the Steam Controller
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A touchscreen in the center? Has Valve actually taken a cue from Nintendo? No way.
Personally it's hard for me to imagine anything being WORSE than joysticks. They're so clunky and imprecise, they're only good for when you want to be able to mash your controller like a maniac without consequence.
The idea that the d-pad is somehow an integral part of modern controllers is goofy. The only modern controller that it really served a purpose for was the wii-mote because it let you turn the thing sideways for some games and play it like a NES controller. For controllers like the X-Box it might as well just be an extra set of buttons.
If you read the dealy it says that these things are specially designed to offer tactile feedback using haptic tech in the touchpads. Since this is unlike anything you've used before, how can you possibly know how it'll feel?j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Personally it's hard for me to imagine anything being WORSE than joysticks. They're so clunky and imprecise, they're only good for when you want to be able to mash your controller like a maniac without consequence.
Because how dare a controller have buttons not layed out in the exact arrangement than you're used to. Because clearly the traditional Xbox controller is the only sensible layout for every kind of game. Except that layout makes it impossible to hit any of the four buttons while controlling the right joystick, which is a serious limitation I've run into when trying to map PC games for a controller. With this layout you have 2 buttons you can press while using the left touchpad, and 2 you can press while using the right. The trackpads will also be buttons, but unlike joysticks it probably won't feel incredibly awkward to press them since they're inlaid.
A traditional controller? It's not like those are going to be wiped off the face of the earth once this thing comes out. Valve's recent statements seem to suggest they don't believe in a one-size-fits-all mentality, so they'll probably support X-Box style controller for games more suited to it. This is for games that would usually be played with a mouse and keyboard.
You say the D-pad's been mandatory since the 80s, but it's no longer being used for what it was originally designed for. Now it's pretty much been relegated to being an extra set of buttons for swapping out items/weapons, something the touchscreen on this controller is designed to handle.
The idea that the d-pad is somehow an integral part of modern controllers is goofy. The only modern controller that it really served a purpose for was the wii-mote because it let you turn the thing sideways for some games and play it like a NES controller. For controllers like the X-Box it might as well just be an extra set of buttons.
For some things, not shooters, not RTSs, not point and click games.
Which is presumably why this controller features them[/quote]
D-pads are a vestigial remnant from the 90s that's been rendered obsolete by joysticks and repurposed as a set of extra buttons. It won't be a tragic loss.
You haven't even tried using it yet, how the hell are you so sure? You could be right, this could be an inferior controller, but I have trouble believing valve would place this much faith in a controller if it doesn't make some degree of sense.
Um...no..DrOswald said:
The overlay pops up when you touch the screen, showing you what option you currently have selected. THEN you click the touch screen to confirm your selection.
Where the hell are people getting the idea the controller just pops up a message saying, "You just pressed this option!" after the fact?
Seriously...
Uh huh. So basically you're implying that 'controllers' first appeared during the Nintendo64/Playstation 1 era?Shadowstar38 said:
Man, I sure do pity those PSX players. Having to play their games with...their TV remote, I guess?
That's essentially one of the two primary responses I've seen from the "detractors".Grimh said:
It's either, as you said, "Ahh! It's different therefore it sucks!"
Or, it's, "Pff. Valve sucks, so this thing will suck!" (look no further than a few specific, frequent posters in this very thread for confirmation)
Seriously, the hypocrisy the gaming community is showing today is staggering. All the fucking time you hear all these keyboard-warrior-types complaining and whining about a lack of innovation and new ideas in the industry. Yet, here comes Valve actually trying something new and innovative and all you hear is bitching about the thing be "different".
You wanted new ideas people? You fucking got. Now maybe give it a try before you go about decreeing the thing the worst invention ever?
In that case we are adding in at least human reaction time into the input time. If we have to visually confirm what button we are going to press then that will slowdown the input, not to mention take your attention away from other things happening on the screen. And clutter up the screen. So, yeah, still inferior.Vigormortis said:
Well, seeing how it would be used in place of a D-Pad, which was used mostly for inventory management, which required exactly the same thing...DrOswald said:
I'm keen to try this out, which is more than I can say for certain other "revolutionary" controllers....
The B and the Y buttons seem a bit too far away, but without holding it I won't try to judge its functionality. I'm surprised so many people think it is ugly. I rather like the way it looks.
The B and the Y buttons seem a bit too far away, but without holding it I won't try to judge its functionality. I'm surprised so many people think it is ugly. I rather like the way it looks.
Sadly, your breed is a rare breed indeed.-Dragmire- said:
It's a shame the gaming community at large is so childishly pre-judgmental. Without having full info on the thing, nor even having any basis on which to judge it's quality, everyone is already decreeing it the "worst controller since whatever!"
I guarantee you had Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo showcased this thing most of the detractors would be cheering. They'd be singing the companies praises and declaring this controller as a "true next-gen innovation worthy of the next-gen consoles!"
But nope. It's from Valve, therefore it can only either be a completely worthless piece of junk or an over-expensive, "DRM-ridden" tool of consumer exploit.
The only thing more humorous than the "fanboy" reactions have been the detractor reactions.KungFuJazzHands said:
Seriously...they've made for some down-right hi-larious reading. Hell, most of 'em go on entire tirades of complaints and matter-of-fact statements, even though most of their statements are demonstrably false with just a simple read of the info page about the controller.
Example:
"Where are the buttons? I see only a few!"
- the controller has 16 buttons, as well as fully customizable trackpads and a touchscreen
"Where are the thumbsticks?! Touchpads are awful and provide no sensory feedback!"
- the touchpads are high-resolution and have far greater tracking capabilities than other touchpads or even thumbsticks. As well, the new haptic feedback systems, assuming Valve is using gen 3 or 4 models, will provide even greater sensory feedback than a thumbstick or a rumble motor can
"It looks ugly!"
- yes, because form is more important than function, right? The efficiency of a controller isn't as important as making sure the thing looks pretty...
"Touchscreens don't work for gaming! I can't keep glancing at the controller!"
- you don't have to. They very clear explain how the thing alerts you to what's being done on the screen by displaying the requisite information on the main screen.
Really, the list goes on and on.
This is not to say, of course, that this thing isn't above being critiqued and analyzed. And, for all we know, it could very well turn out terrible.
However, the sheer number of negative responses, based solely on a few images and a lack of undestanding, that have been flooding the 'net is astounding. Especially as many of these same voices have been demanding something new from the industry.
As I've said prior: there was a time when many gamers bitched and moaned about thumbsticks. The first time they showed up on the N64 controller, many gamers lost their minds. Many of them screaming that Nintendo had made the "dumbest and most pointless addition to a controller ever! We don't need some stupid plastic stick! Just give us our d-pads!"
But hey. If people are okay with Sony's and Microsoft's version of innovation in input technology[footnote]Rumble motors in the triggers? Really? I've been left speechless by the fact that that wowed people.[/footnote], then so be it. Some of us want to see more.
Time will tell whether Valve pulled it off or not. Either way, I still don't see this thing replacing keyboard/mouse for many people.
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As to your last point, it will be functional outside of the SteamOS environment.
Directly from the article (seriously...why the hell are people not reading that page?) -
The Steam Controller was designed from the ground up to be hackable. Just as the Steam Community and Workshop contributors currently deliver tremendous value via additions to software products on Steam, we believe that they will meaningfully contribute to the design of the Steam Controller. We plan to make tools available that will enable users to participate in all aspects of the experience, from industrial design to electrical engineering. We can?t wait to see what you come up with.
In essence, if you want to hack/mod the thing to work for something else, you're not only free to but Valve will give you the tools to do so.
I have spoilered the quotes i am responding to keep the post short
Without actually ever using the Xperia trackpads i have no stance on handheld trackpads as of yet. My experience with laptop track pads is rocky at best however, but the last time I used a trackpad was about 6 years ago. It is possible that these trackpads will work because of new tech advancements though.
I agree, ABXY are in some really weird places, but it seems like they are not intended to be used for anything important or timely. But without trying it out, it is hard to say how badly placed they really are.
However the point i really want to talk about is the N64 controller. I feel that people tend to look at the N64 design without regard for the time it came out. Some even may have never used one before and therefore are baffled by the strange third arm. so here is my two cents on the design
I think that the N64, however poorly designed by today's standards, was in fact a great example of controller design.
When looking at it you have to remember almost all gamers had never used a thumbstick before when it was released, let alone two simultaneously. Navigating 3D space was also a new and exciting prospect and was in a way, a gimmick at that time. Nintendo therefore could not be certain that the thumbstick would be accepted by gamers, or if 3D games would ultimately become a passing fad.
The N64 controller therefore needed to be made in such a way as to insure that it did not become obsolete if the thumbstick failed. To accomplice this they made a controller which could be held in 2 different configurations + a lefty version of one thumbstick. Holding centre and the right arm was for the newfangled thumbstick movement, with the thumbstick at centre so that lefties could swap right for left and use the d-pad for a slightly hampered experience. left side did not have an analogue for A and B buttons. holding the controller at both the right and left arm would in effect make the controller the same as the old SNES controller, with 2 additional buttons. The Z button itself could be seen as a countermeasure to losing one bumper when in using the thumbstick
They saw that games where at a crossroads and that either thumbsticks or D-Pad would become the new standard, but not both. therefore the D-Pad and the thumbstick was not expected to function as navigation at the same time.
N64 controller is the perfect example of innovation without alienating your prior audience, but does have it own issues.
The Thumbstick was flimsy, easily loosened and good at causing blisters for one. The controller was also a little too small for adult hands as well.
Unfortunately i have run out of time to type. so cant respond to the rest of the post.
I hope the steam controller does turn out good though
j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Firstly, track pads instead of analogue sticks? Are you fucking kidding me? It's been tried before, it doesn't work. Analogue sticks offer more tactile feedback, and greater responsiveness. You can tell how fast or slow your character is walking without even looking just by feeling the physical response of the analogue stick. Sony tried using trackpads on their Xperia Playstation phone, and while it was a noble endeavour, ultimately it proved to be a far inferior method of input. Analogue sticks have stuck around for a reason. When it comes to regular controllers (not motion controllers), they work.
j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
I agree, ABXY are in some really weird places, but it seems like they are not intended to be used for anything important or timely. But without trying it out, it is hard to say how badly placed they really are.
However the point i really want to talk about is the N64 controller. I feel that people tend to look at the N64 design without regard for the time it came out. Some even may have never used one before and therefore are baffled by the strange third arm. so here is my two cents on the design
I think that the N64, however poorly designed by today's standards, was in fact a great example of controller design.
When looking at it you have to remember almost all gamers had never used a thumbstick before when it was released, let alone two simultaneously. Navigating 3D space was also a new and exciting prospect and was in a way, a gimmick at that time. Nintendo therefore could not be certain that the thumbstick would be accepted by gamers, or if 3D games would ultimately become a passing fad.
The N64 controller therefore needed to be made in such a way as to insure that it did not become obsolete if the thumbstick failed. To accomplice this they made a controller which could be held in 2 different configurations + a lefty version of one thumbstick. Holding centre and the right arm was for the newfangled thumbstick movement, with the thumbstick at centre so that lefties could swap right for left and use the d-pad for a slightly hampered experience. left side did not have an analogue for A and B buttons. holding the controller at both the right and left arm would in effect make the controller the same as the old SNES controller, with 2 additional buttons. The Z button itself could be seen as a countermeasure to losing one bumper when in using the thumbstick
They saw that games where at a crossroads and that either thumbsticks or D-Pad would become the new standard, but not both. therefore the D-Pad and the thumbstick was not expected to function as navigation at the same time.
N64 controller is the perfect example of innovation without alienating your prior audience, but does have it own issues.
The Thumbstick was flimsy, easily loosened and good at causing blisters for one. The controller was also a little too small for adult hands as well.
Unfortunately i have run out of time to type. so cant respond to the rest of the post.
I hope the steam controller does turn out good though
This is exactly true. The point that was originally made, the point that I was backing up, was that the touch screen is a poor as a precise and quick input device.lacktheknack said:
As an extension to the overall controller? So a developer can custom program quick menu buttons and such? That sounds interesting. And the improvements Valve has made sound like they will greatly improve the usability of the touch screen. But as a replacement for actual buttons you need to be able to press in a split second it is poor.
I'm sorry, but those have got to be some of the flimsiest complaints I've heard thus far.DrOswald said:
How would it be any different using this touchpad with pop-up display than using a d-pad to scroll through action items? Please...tell me. Because I'm not seeing it. In fact, I'm of a mind that the touchscreen would allow for more options in that regard; making it superior in this sense.
Also: the pop-up being onscreen is meant to prevent you from having to take your attention away from the screen. I don't see your logic here. Especially as, again with a d-pad, you'd have to glance at your inventory slots anyway.
Besides, in many ways this touchscreen interface is very similar to how one would click an on-screen button with a mouse. You just point and click.
Lastly, slowed reaction time? As opposed to having to move your thumb from the stick, press the d-pad in the right direction, and then moving it back?
In the end, if it's such a worry, the thing can function simply as one big button. No "slowed reaction times". No "cluttered" onscreen alerts. Just press it and go.
Since when did having options become a bad thing? I don't get people today.
[edit]
If this seems hostile, I apologize. I've been incessantly insulted today, simply because I showed an intrigued interest in trying out this controller. Which, apparently, is the equivalent of murdering babies.
I don't understand it fully, but from what I can glean from research there's some seriously cool tech going on with this thing.
It looks a bit weird, but I can't wait to try one out. New things can only help drive the industry forward, even if they don't turn out to be the second coming of christ.
It looks a bit weird, but I can't wait to try one out. New things can only help drive the industry forward, even if they don't turn out to be the second coming of christ.
I've never needed to hit the D-Pad in a split second. I've always been in a comparably safe location before accessing inventory because, as you said, it takes your attention away.DrOswald said:
You keep acting like the touchscreen is replacing buttons that need to be pressed often and quickly, and I find it distressing that you seem to think that Valve and devs are actually somehow that thick.
And if they ARE that thick, then thank heavens you can remap it!
mmmmmm, it'll be interesting to try out. But I'm not sure if a track pad can fully replace the speed and precision that a mouse has.
I mean my Laptop has a track pad and I use it a lot. but I'm still not nearly as proficient with it as a mouse. If i tried to play a game that needed fast and precise reaction times i would not do very good with a track pad.
I mean my Laptop has a track pad and I use it a lot. but I'm still not nearly as proficient with it as a mouse. If i tried to play a game that needed fast and precise reaction times i would not do very good with a track pad.
Are you talking about only the specific case in some first person shooters where the d-pad is used for only inventory management? Because D-pads are used for a lot more than that. And in any case, being able to quickly and reliably change inventory while in the middle of a firefight is kind of important. Having to retreat to a place of safety to get the correct grenade type out would be a serious problem.lacktheknack said:
But that was the original complaint that jeffers had. He said that a d-pad was needed to for precision split second button presses in many case. The response was that the touch screen replaces the d-pad.
What cases are these?DrOswald said:
No, seriously. What? I've never used a D-Pad for anything quick and common... ever.
Are they cases like movement, which could be easily accounted for by using the trackpad like an iPod Classic wheel?
You won't find me arguing with you here. Parties on both sides have shown an alarming lack of common sense regarding all this new Steam stuff.Vigormortis said:
None of that tells me specifically whether or not the Steam Controller is going to work with games not associated with my Steam account. For all we know, Valve may decide to hard-lock the controller to prevent it from working with non-Steam games. Until Valve decide to release more info, all anyone can do at this point is speculate.
Seriously, I simply want more details from Valve, and people like you keep telling me to "read the information available". That's exactly what I do, and I'm still not getting answers to all the questions I have regarding Steam Universe and Valve's ultimate intentions with the project.
A fair point. And I think some may have misspoken before.DrOswald said:
What they likely meant to say was, D-pads are all but relecated to functioning as extra buttons nowadays. Therefore, anything that can function as a cluster of customizable buttons can function as a D-pad.
As such, given that the touchscreen is nearly limitless in it's configurations, it can provide a superior replacement to the classic d-pad.
If you're intention is to use a D-pad for purely movement inputs, as in a side-scroller or fighting game, than I doubt the touchscreen would provide a good alternative.
However, if the touchpads are as configurable and sensory responsive as Valve is claiming, then one could conceivably configure one of the trackpads to function; and perhaps even feel; like a d-pad.
Until we get the things in our hands, we just can't know.
They wouldn't hard-lock it to Steam games.KungFuJazzHands said:
A. That's not possible if it's designed to be hackable. Like... physically impossible.
B. Valve has a habit of not committing suicide.
A fair point. However...KungFuJazzHands said:
Given that Valve not only plans to provide the source code to SteamOS, but also the driver and hardware rootkits for the controller, it's almost inconceivable that they'd even attempt to 'lock it to Steam'.
Not because I think they wouldn't want to, but because giving the tools to hack and mod the thing to the community would make it almost impossible TO lock the thing to Steam.
Think of it this way: even if Valve somehow made it only functional with Steam games, if the community at large has access to the driver source-code then Valve can do nothing to stop the community from making the thing function with...anything, really.
Unless Valve decides to sue everyone that tries. But then, what would have been the point of providing the tools to mod the thing in the first place?
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Yes, that's all still speculative, but generally speaking if a company is giving out the source code and rootkits to one of their devices, they aren't planning to 'lock it down' to anything.
That said, I'm sure certain features may remain exclusive to Steam games. Like shared profile and mod/hack settings. But having access to the core driver software, the modding community could implement similar features in their own way.