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Gergar12

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So has China, but no one is going to physically attack the US. Or military is too mighty and the oceans ensure that any buildup is easily known about.
Sure they could. And face massive reprisal. Why do you think the Cold War never really went hot?
Yes, but when the US is fighting China in the SCS, and near Taiwan, and has to fight China in the western hemisphere, that means basically we have to divide our forces. Plus, it's close to the Panama Canal.

Also, China has basically made shipping containerized missile launchers. Imagine those going off/launching when the additional US Army, Marines, Air National Guard, Navy, and Air Force are being ferried to near Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, possibly, and the Philippines.

 

crimson5pheonix

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You don't think humans need clean water, or even electricity to run the machines for mechanized agriculture.
Notably that has nothing to do with Venezuela, drones, or anything else. Most military tech fetishists keep it in their pants, only the crazy ones think Red Dawn is a documentary.
 
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Gergar12

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Notably that has nothing to do with Venezuela, drones, or anything else. Most military tech fetishists keep it in their pants, only the crazy ones think Red Dawn is a documentary.
Most of the Texas refineries are on the Gulf Coast. If those go down, we will get an energy crisis, and I was only responding to the question of whether America has ever been attacked in a significant way, and it has.
 

Agema

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You don't think humans need clean water, or even electricity to run the machines for mechanized agriculture.
And has a cyberattack caused that sort of mass humanitarian crisis in the USA?

No.

Okay then, let's move on.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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The reason it's our problem is the same reason we give foreign aid, if you let problems spiral they get worse, and eventually effect you given Venazula, and the US are on the same hemisphere, I know everyone who is liberal myself included generally wants compassion for refugees, but similar to abortions generally every refugee is a tragedy.
So we should make the refugee crisis worse by deposing the president and starting a civil war in the country? Sounds great.

No, it would have let to a lost of expertise, and also people who boss people around is not how democracies generally function in policy at the federal level, and that goes double for the democrats, even people the republcian party have pushed back on Trump, and his staffers have taken his phone in 2016.
On no, we'll lose the expertise of *checks notes* people who have launched multiple regime change wars and have failed in every single one. Like I said, maybe it would be totally fine to lose that expertise. Clearly they aren't very good at the thing they're "experts" at.

Both, they could be staging grounds for future drone attacks with shaheds drones, and their foreign interlopers could pose problems for American DEA trying to contain the fentanyl problem. Also the US has bases in the region as well
The fentanyl problem that has nothing to do with Venezuela because fentanyl doesn't go through Venezuela?

As for "future drone attacks" no one is attacking America. At least no government.

They are too weak to do it themselves, but Russia, and China could. Thye already have or had forces in the area recently.
Russia isn't attacking America, they don't stand to gain anything, and stand to lose a lot. In 3 years Russia hasn't been able to defeat Ukraine, one of their direct neighbors. They just don't have the resources and logistics to project power all that far outside of their borders. Russia may be a direct threat to parts of Europe, but they just don't have the capability to make a significant attack against the US, and even if they tried to there would be no upside for them to do it. They would gain nothing and lose everything.

China doesn't have a reason to attack the US either. As much as China is now a world superpower their economy is still largely reliant on the US, and they are also still reliant on US technology and will be for the foreseeable future. With Trump in the white house it's also highly unlikely that the US is going to come to the defense of Taiwan in a direct engagement with China should China choose to invade. There is literally no upside to China in attacking the US, so it's not going to happen.

The US can be attacked by terrorists, or non-state actors, but there is literally no upside for any country to attack the US. It's delusional fear-mongering to think otherwise.
 

Gergar12

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And has a cyberattack caused that sort of mass humanitarian crisis in the USA?

No.

Okay then, let's move on.
Well, 9/11 didn't either, but it did have consequences that would have happened even if AL Gore were president, and didn't invade two countries. And you don't know what could, and couldn't happen in the future, the US military has stated that in the cyber realm, China and Russia are both peers. I am going to trust them on this. Plus you do realize even fi the US could feed its own people despite a massive attack, it supplies food to other countries too.
 

Thaluikhain

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Yes, but when the US is fighting China in the SCS, and near Taiwan, and has to fight China in the western hemisphere, that means basically we have to divide our forces. Plus, it's close to the Panama Canal.

Also, China has basically made shipping containerized missile launchers. Imagine those going off/launching when the additional US Army, Marines, Air National Guard, Navy, and Air Force are being ferried to near Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, possibly, and the Philippines.
Again, that would provoke massive retaliation, which is not something China wants. In any case, the existence of a sovereign state of Venezuela not run by US oil barons is not necessary for China to do that sort of thing.
 

Gergar12

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So we should make the refugee crisis worse by deposing the president and starting a civil war in the country? Sounds great.



On no, we'll lose the expertise of *checks notes* people who have launched multiple regime change wars and have failed in every single one. Like I said, maybe it would be totally fine to lose that expertise. Clearly they aren't very good at the thing they're "experts" at.



The fentanyl problem that has nothing to do with Venezuela because fentanyl doesn't go through Venezuela?

As for "future drone attacks" no one is attacking America. At least no government.



Russia isn't attacking America, they don't stand to gain anything, and stand to lose a lot. In 3 years Russia hasn't been able to defeat Ukraine, one of their direct neighbors. They just don't have the resources and logistics to project power all that far outside of their borders. Russia may be a direct threat to parts of Europe, but they just don't have the capability to make a significant attack against the US, and even if they tried to there would be no upside for them to do it. They would gain nothing and lose everything.

China doesn't have a reason to attack the US either. As much as China is now a world superpower their economy is still largely reliant on the US, and they are also still reliant on US technology and will be for the foreseeable future. With Trump in the white house it's also highly unlikely that the US is going to come to the defense of Taiwan in a direct engagement with China should China choose to invade. There is literally no upside to China in attacking the US, so it's not going to happen.

The US can be attacked by terrorists, or non-state actors, but there is literally no upside for any country to attack the US. It's delusional fear-mongering to think otherwise.
Maduro's inner guard is made up of Cubans; he doesn't even trust his own military. It's doubtful whether there would even be a civil war given how unpopular he is, and how undersupplied and undermaintained his own military is.

I think a better answer would be that most fentanyl likely doesn't go through, or is made in Venezuela, but could be in the future, say if the US were effective in taking down the cartels in Mexico. And some of it has gone through Venezuela, since some of the boats that the US blew up were drug-running submarines from.... Venezuela.

Really, no government is attacking America; Iran did when Soleimani died, and against our troops in Iraq.

Russia has attacked the US in cyberattacks, and could in the future with drones, also, may I point you to this.


I don't agree that Trump may not defend Taiwan; I don't think it's 100%. He sent them 11 billion in weapons shipments, and his supporter CEOs, minus Elon, are either weapons manufacturers like Andruil or military contractors like Palantir. Plus he could be pushed to like in the case of attacking Iran, by his aides, since no man rules alone.

The US defense department doesn't think any of this is delusional, nor does the DIA, National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, DEA, FBI, CIA, etc.
 

Gergar12

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Again, that would provoke massive retaliation, which is not something China wants. In any case, the existence of a sovereign state of Venezuela not run by US oil barons is not necessary for China to do that sort of thing.
Invading Taiwan, which produces most of the world's advanced chips, including 2nm chips used by most of Trump's donors, and in many of America's electronics, will always do that.
 

Gergar12

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Russia doesn't need to have assets in Venezuela to launch a cyber attack against the US. Cyber attacks are location agnostic and therefore have nothing to do with Venezuela.
I was responding to a question of whether the US has ever been attacked by Russia.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Most of the Texas refineries are on the Gulf Coast. If those go down, we will get an energy crisis, and I was only responding to the question of whether America has ever been attacked in a significant way, and it has.
Your premise was that Venezuela was going to be some forward base for physical attacks, which is ridiculous.
 

Gergar12

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Your premise was that Venezuela was going to be some forward base for physical attacks, which is ridiculous.
Did any of you guys watch the Ryan McBeth video?

Long story short, the Panama Canal is within range of bomber strikes from Venezuela, and IRBMs in Venezuela are within range of those Texas refineries. Do any of you guys know how geopolitics works? The status quo is not constant; the world is ever-changing.

Not to mention the drones.

 

Dirty Hipsters

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I was responding to a question of whether the US has ever been attacked by Russia.
And clearly that's not the kind of attack that is being discussed or is relevant to this thread on Venezuela.

China and Russia are not using Venezuela as a staging ground to directly attack the US, so pretending that Venezuela is a threat to the US because of it's ties with Russia and China is laughable. So what if they have some minor military assets in Venezuela? They aren't going to do anything with them to attack the US, so they are literally not a threat.

Talking about cyberattacks is irrelevant to the conversation.
 

Thaluikhain

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I think a better answer would be that most fentanyl likely doesn't go through, or is made in Venezuela, but could be in the future, say if the US were effective in taking down the cartels in Mexico. And some of it has gone through Venezuela, since some of the boats that the US blew up were drug-running submarines from.... Venezuela.
Might be in the future? You personally might become a drug dealer in the future, should Trump kidnap you then?

Invading Taiwan, which produces most of the world's advanced chips, including 2nm chips used by most of Trump's donors, and in many of America's electronics, will always do that.
Sure, which is presumably why China has yet to do that.
 

thebobmaster

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I just want to point out that this logic of "It's all right to intervene into Venezuela because dictatorship that may attack the US at some point" is the same exact kind of logic that led to the US getting involved in Vietnam. "If we let Vietnam fall, then Cambodia's next, then eventually Asia, then they'll come after us!"
 

Gergar12

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And clearly that's not the kind of attack that is being discussed or is relevant to this thread on Venezuela.

China and Russia are not using Venezuela as a staging ground to directly attack the US, so pretending that Venezuela is a threat to the US because of it's ties with Russia and China is laughable. So what if they have some minor military assets in Venezuela? They aren't going to do anything with them to attack the US, so they are literally not a threat.

Talking about cyberattacks is irrelevant to the conversation.
The question before was whether the US has ever been attacked, not whether the US has ever been attacked physically which I also provided an answer to.

"China and Russia are not using Venezuela as a staging ground to directly attack the US, so pretending that Venezuela is a threat to the US because of it's ties with Russia and China is laughable. So what if they have some minor military assets in Venezuela? They aren't going to do anything with them to attack the US, so they are literally not a threat. "

That's not the judgment and analysis of people who do this for a living.
 

Hades

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Useless fucking "opposition"

They're not mad that Trump invaded another country. They're mad that Trump didn't get permission before invading another country...
Not entirely untrue but isn't the entire point of a president having to ask permission so that when psychopaths like Trump get elected they can't start wars willy nilly. Agreeing Trump should sidestep that theoretical barrier on his urges seems rather unwise.