Venezuela

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Dirty Hipsters

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The question before was whether the US has ever been attacked, not whether the US has ever been attacked physically which I also provided an answer to.
So it's clear that you misunderstood the context of the question.

That's not the judgment and analysis of people who do this for a living.
Yes, the people who do this for a living have to have contingency plans for any possible situation. That doesn't mean that those situations are probable, or that the US should be actively starting wars based on something that may be a possible threat at some point in the future based on things that haven't happened.
 

Gergar12

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I just want to point out that this logic of "It's all right to intervene into Venezuela because dictatorship that may attack the US at some point" is the same exact kind of logic that led to the US getting involved in Vietnam. "If we let Vietnam fall, then Cambodia's next, then eventually Asia, then they'll come after us!"
That was mainly because of that idiot McCarthy got people like Christian missionaries who went to China fired, they worked in the US government, and could have provided a more sober analysis that Vietnam had been invaded by China before, Ho Chi Minh loved America, and thanks to French arrogance in its colonies.

Might be in the future? You personally might become a drug dealer in the future, should Trump kidnap you then?



Sure, which is presumably why China has yet to do that.
I am a no-buddy college student who hasn't even tried weed; if he would kidnap me, it's because I am a minority.

When dictators spam, I want to do X over and over again. I would listen to them.

 

Gergar12

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So it's clear that you misunderstood the context of the question.



Yes, the people who do this for a living have to have contingency plans for any possible situation. That doesn't mean that those situations are probable, or that the US should be actively starting wars based on something that may be a possible threat at some point in the future based on things that haven't happened.
Trump didn't do this; he pulled the trigger, but much of the pushing, planning, etc, was done by Marco Rubio, and the DOD, the same DOD I referenced. Also, it is probable that China will invade Taiwan and will pull every trick out of its hat to achieve massive success.


 

tippy2k2

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Not entirely untrue but isn't the entire point of a president having to ask permission so that when psychopaths like Trump get elected they can't start wars willy nilly. Agreeing Trump should sidestep that theoretical barrier on his urges seems rather unwise.
I want the US to stop bombing people. Democrats want to make sure Trump gets permission before The US bombs people.
 

Gergar12

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I want the US to stop bombing people. Democrats want to make sure Trump gets permission before The US bombs people.
And I want the world to be a type 1 civilization before my generation dies; it's not going to happen anytime soon.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Trump didn't do this; he pulled the trigger, but much of the pushing, planning, etc, was done by Marco Rubio, and the DOD, the same DOD I referenced. Also, it is probable that China will invade Taiwan and will pull every trick out of its hat to achieve massive success.


Marco Rubio isn't exactly an unbiased source and has a vested interest in attacking Venezuela because he wants to topple the Cuban government, and thinks that Venezuela is the first step to doing that. That has nothing to do with Venezuela being a threat to the US.

I have no doubt that China wants to invade Taiwan, or that they will attempt to do so. I doubt that it'll cause a direct military confrontation with the US over Taiwan.

Trump does not have an interest in defending Taiwan. At best he'll commit to giving weapons to Taiwan and Japan, the same way the US was giving weapons to Ukraine, but what Trump wants is to use Taiwan's independence as a negotiating chip in a deal with China. He doesn't actually give a shit about Taiwan.
 

Gergar12

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Marco Rubio isn't exactly an unbiased source and has a vested interest in attacking Venezuela because he wants to topple the Cuban government, and thinks that Venezuela is the first step to doing that. That has nothing to do with Venezuela being a threat to the US.

I have no doubt that China wants to invade Taiwan, or that they will attempt to do so. I doubt that it'll cause a direct military confrontation with the US over Taiwan.

Trump does not have an interest in defending Taiwan. At best he'll commit to giving weapons to Taiwan and Japan, the same way the US was giving weapons to Ukraine, but what Trump wants is to use Taiwan's independence as a negotiating chip in a deal with China. He doesn't actually give a shit about Taiwan.
His donors do want to protect Taiwan; without those chips, his tech company donors are screwed. Will Trump pick his base or his donors, just like Iran, Israel, and even Ukraine? He will pick his donors.
 

Hades

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I want the US to stop bombing people. Democrats want to make sure Trump gets permission before The US bombs people.
Ok but doesn't this situation just create more bombings if Trump is the only one who's approval is needed?
 

Dirty Hipsters

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His donors do want to protect Taiwan; without those chips, his tech company donors are screwed. Will Trump pick his base or his donors, just like Iran, Israel, and even Ukraine? He will pick his donors.
Trump is an 80 year old tech illiterate man. If China tells him that once they take over Taiwan they'll keep making chips and selling them to the US and give the US a "good deal" he will believe them.

I also don't think China is going to invade Taiwan until China has their own chip fabs up and running, which they're currently working on. Part of the deal to get Taiwan will likely be selling chips to the US, or investing in Intel or something to offset the potential destruction of TSMC. If Trump's tech oligarchs can continue getting the chips they need in the short term they won't care if they come from Taiwan or China.
 

Gergar12

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Trump is an 80 year old tech illiterate man. If China tells him that once they take over Taiwan they'll keep making chips and selling them to the US and give the US a "good deal" he will believe them.

I also don't think China is going to invade Taiwan until China has their own chip fabs up and running, which they're currently working on. Part of the deal to get Taiwan will likely be selling chips to the US, or investing in Intel or something to offset the potential destruction of TSMC. If Trump's tech oligarchs can continue getting the chips they need in the short term they won't care if they come from Taiwan or China.
Okay, what about the defense contractors? What about the fact that China will eventually leverage those chips to blackmail the US, which even Tim Cook was forced to move his iPhone facilities from China to India due to civil-military fusion of US companies, and the US government? Also, tech oligarchs generally are pro-US power as well, and have staff who understand how Taiwan being in Chinese control could affect them, and many are secretly anti-China, given how many don't want Chinese-American executives, aka the bamboo ceiling. Not everyone is Ray Dalio.

Trump is a lot of tech realist and pragmatic than you think; he won the 2024 election after all with the support of podcasters like Joe Rogan.
 

Hades

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If Trump repeats this with Greenland there might be a problem they haven't considered: Healthcare.

Depriving Greenland's citizens of healthcare and forcing them to risk getting destitute whenever they get something worse than the flue is just going to increase public discontent at the occupation and makes the region harder to control.

But if they allow Greenland to retain their healthcare they risk giving their own populations silly ideas such as healthcare being possible to begin with. Why should it be possible in hostile territory with subjugated citizens, but not in the motherland?
 

Thaluikhain

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When dictators spam, I want to do X over and over again. I would listen to them.

Sure, they want to take Taiwan, they've wanted to take it since 1949, but if it will trigger massive retaliation, then they won't. Should they be certain that the US (et al) won't defend Taiwan, you do not want to be in Taiwan at that time. Until then, Taiwan is relatively safe.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Okay, what about the defense contractors? What about the fact that China will eventually leverage those chips to blackmail the US, which even Tim Cook was forced to move his iPhone facilities from China to India due to civil-military fusion of US companies, and the US government? Also, tech oligarchs generally are pro-US power as well, and have staff who understand how Taiwan being in Chinese control could affect them, and many are secretly anti-China, given how many don't want Chinese-American executives, aka the bamboo ceiling. Not everyone is Ray Dalio.

Trump is a lot of tech realist and pragmatic than you think; he won the 2024 election after all with the support of podcasters like Joe Rogan.
The tech oligarchs are talking out of both sides of their mouths and are fighting hard to sell their technology to China even while they complain about China's tech dominance.

Just look at Nvidia and how they've been lobbying the Trump administration to let them sell their best GPUs to China.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Yes, but when the US is fighting China in the SCS, and near Taiwan, and has to fight China in the western hemisphere, that means basically we have to divide our forces. Plus, it's close to the Panama Canal.

Also, China has basically made shipping containerized missile launchers. Imagine those going off/launching when the additional US Army, Marines, Air National Guard, Navy, and Air Force are being ferried to near Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, possibly, and the Philippines.
I doubt that China will invade Taiwan. The orange bastard has strengthened China's position in global trade and the real gem of Taiwan, their semiconductor plants are too easy to sabotage or just air strike.

Well, loading missiles into crates like that would still be seen by satellite and even if they managed to do it, they could do it once before massive retaliation.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Did any of you guys watch the Ryan McBeth video?

Long story short, the Panama Canal is within range of bomber strikes from Venezuela, and IRBMs in Venezuela are within range of those Texas refineries. Do any of you guys know how geopolitics works? The status quo is not constant; the world is ever-changing.

Not to mention the drones.

Even if they struck the oil refineries, that's not some decisive ending blow. It's not good, it's not nothing, but it's not a winning move. And there's no way to capitalize on that sort of opening move, so it's just fodder for speculation, not a serious concern.
 

tippy2k2

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Ok but doesn't this situation just create more bombings if Trump is the only one who's approval is needed?
...am I somehow not getting my point across?

Democrats are ONLY asking that Trump get their permission. They still want to bomb Venezuela, they're just mad that Trump didn't ask them permission first.

I want an opposition party that DOESN'T want to bomb other countries. Like...sure, making Trump get their permission is all well and good for the Checks & Balance everyone still pretends exist but I want an opposition party that actually OPPOSES what Trump is doing, not one that just wants Trump to get their permission before getting us into (yet another) pointless war.
 

Thaluikhain

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...am I somehow not getting my point across?

Democrats are ONLY asking that Trump get their permission. They still want to bomb Venezuela, they're just mad that Trump didn't ask them permission first.
Not sure if they want to bomb Venezuela, but yeah, the idea that the US shouldn't go round bombing place for no good reason isn't something they are going to argue, because the concept of not being able to bomb places for no reason is alien to them.
 

tippy2k2

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More that you don't think the point all the way through.
I am thinking it through perfectly fine. I want an actual opposition party. Not a party who's idea of opposing Trump is complaining that Trump didn't get their permission before sending us to yet another pointless war.

But hey, being disappointed that Democrats won't do more than a strongly worded letter is on me. Democrats and Republicans both love war so expecting either side to do anything anti-war was foolish of me.
 

Silvanus

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Depriving Greenland's citizens of healthcare and forcing them to risk getting destitute whenever they get something worse than the flue is just going to increase public discontent at the occupation and makes the region harder to control.
The US has denied adequate infrastructure, healthcare, investment and political representation to Puerto Rico for >120 years, and their population is about 6x that of Greenland.