Visual Novels; their place in the gaming world?

[NPC009]

It doesn't necessarily have to be more gamey. Its more that the few moments of actual player interaction (the very occasional choices) feel arbitrary, yet contrived. They don't make much sense within the narrative. These game don't actually ask you if you want to go to pick up woman a) over woman b), they ask you if you want to go to place a) over place b), with the tacit understanding that by picking a seemingly random location, you will bump into one of these women. I feel that the games that do this might as well not even bother with the choice mechanic. If you are going to have it, present a meaningful choice.

That all said, I do tend to like the gamier ones. Or at least the ones that give me more regular and more meaningful influence over the story.

I rarely play the dating type and I'm not really into dating sims either, but in the ones I played there's usually some sense to it. If you want to meet the nerdy boy with the glasses, going to the library is your best bet. And sometimes they're more like chance encounters. Like, decide to go shopping and you'll run into the token bad boy hanging out on the street.

Now, of course it's kind of ridiculous most character fit neatly into popular categories, but to many people that's the appeal of these games. Knowing what to expect is comforting. It's not any different from buying the new FIFA every year or playing lots of CoD-esque shooters.

I don't think this is a problem, as there are always games out there that do things differently or are self-aware enough to play with the tropes. I had a blast with Sweet Fuse [http://aksysgames.com/sweet-fuse/], where being assertive gets you the guy. Also, there's the whole 'murder games in theme park were all the rides are based on (fictional) games and you have to save your uncle, legendary gamedesigner Keiji Inafune before the time is up'.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

It doesn't necessarily have to be more gamey. Its more that the few moments of actual player interaction (the very occasional choices) feel arbitrary, yet contrived. They don't make much sense within the narrative. These game don't actually ask you if you want to go to pick up woman a) over woman b), they ask you if you want to go to place a) over place b), with the tacit understanding that by picking a seemingly random location, you will bump into one of these women. I feel that the games that do this might as well not even bother with the choice mechanic. If you are going to have it, present a meaningful choice.

That all said, I do tend to like the gamier ones. Or at least the ones that give me more regular and more meaningful influence over the story.

Have you only read more dating sim like VNs because those aren't the only types of choices there are. And usually those kind of choices are there to allow the reader to choose what kind of interactions the main character has and with who. Not neccessarily a bad thing. If you want to see more of character X then isn't it nice that you have the option to do so? And vice versa. If you don't like to see character Y some choices make you avoid this character.

 

[ZiggyE]

Also, the two game screens you provided don't disprove my point. The exceptions to a trend do not disprove the existence of that trend, and I had already acknowledged repeatedly that there are exceptions. This is what qualifiers like "often" or "most" are for.

The format in those images is known as NVL. There are literally hundreds of NVL VNs. [https://vndb.org/g43?fil=tag_inc-43.tagspoil-0;m=0;o=d;s=rating]

 

[Entitled]

What I really don't understand is how the fans have grown so accustomed to this standard, they think it is bizarre for others someone question it. Hell, you even said it yourself: "There's no reason to make special CGs for each scene, unless something interesting is happening it's just 2 or more people talking in a room." In a VN, two people talking in a room never looks interesting.

It's not that unusual, that fans of a medium or genre get used to a technical limitation, and identify it as a self-defining quirk.

For example turn based games exist because they were the first adaptations of tabletop games, that needed pen and paper to manually calculate all combat results. Objectively speaking, real time simulations are more efficient at the immersion that was the goal all along. But by the time we had enough computing capacity, gamers started to self-identify as people who care about levelling and inventories and numerical skills, even where they make no realistic sense.


For that matter, you might say that manga are more efficient than VNs, but manga itself isn't as efficient as anime, if you want to reduce everything to amounts of information broadcasted, and novels are not as efficient as movies.

For some reason, people stay attached to historically developed mediums, instead of just maximizing "efficiency".

Okay, well I do know, it is because VNs are made as cheaply and as quickly as possible, so anything that might push up the production cost is out of the question. What I really don't understand is how the fans have grown so accustomed to this standard

Yes, that's part of the reason too. Telling VN devs that they should experiment with making every scene a CG, is a bit like telling mangaka that they should draw enough to make every scene animated. And this point we are talking about orders of magnitudes of different production values, if you still want to tell the same amounts of narrative.

If VNs would be limited to shorter, more comics-like scenes, with quicker and more intense storytelling, to stay affordable, then stories like Ever17, Fate/Stay Night, or Higurashi couldn't have been told.

Well, a variation on their themes could be told, as seen from their adaptations, but not the detailed worldbuilding and elaborate plotting that made them popular in the first place, and that's foreknowledge made their adaptations appealing to most.

 

[Someone Depressing]

The VSDB (Visual Novel Database) is a pretty good resource for finding the best and finding the worst, the major partition being which one has about three hours of garbage, boobs bigger than heads, and full-on hardcore loli guro that someone, somewhere, somehow, is getting off to this very second. Then you can lose a little bit of faith in the world and move onto your next pile of bilge.

So you lose faith in the world just because people enjoy things you don't? What a great way to look at the world. I would rather be happy that people can find enjoyment in something that I can't.

I mean that it's almost depressing in that it's heavily related to the NEET and hikikimori issue in Japan. If someone who has a stable life and a job also had a hidden collection of 8-year-olds getting their limbs torn off while wearing lolita outfits, so what? I don't care. But the fact that these games/stories/media/whatever you want to call them are being sold and marketed to people who pressured by society into the situation they're in is the part that just makes me lose faith in Japan ever getting out of the rut that its younger generation has found itself in.

I don't care what kind of porn that people like. Everyone likes stuff that others will find freaky and/or terrifying. But when that stuff is damaging an already strict and harsh society like Japan's, that's when a line must be drawn and this medium analysed.

 

[Mutant1988]

I mean that it's almost depressing in that it's heavily related to the NEET and hikikimori issue in Japan. If someone who has a stable life and a job also had a hidden collection of 8-year-olds getting their limbs torn off while wearing lolita outfits, so what? I don't care. But the fact that these games/stories/media/whatever you want to call them are being sold and marketed to people who pressured by society into the situation they're in is the part that just makes me lose faith in Japan ever getting out of the rut that its younger generation has found itself in.

I don't care what kind of porn that people like. Everyone likes stuff that others will find freaky and/or terrifying. But when that stuff is damaging an already strict and harsh society like Japan's, that's when a line must be drawn and this medium analysed.

So because of the severity of issue A (Social withdrawal) that is not caused to issue B (VNs - A medium, not a genre), issue B should be analysed?

I also must say that it's amazing that you found porn when you went looking specifically for porn. I would never have expected that.

 

[maninahat]

]Look at how in a single page of a manga or a comic book[/url], even something as simple as a conversation between two people will involve the "camera" moving around the room from panel to panel, focusing on different things, capturing the people and the story from different angles. It does a lot to set a tone, emphasis or a dynamic without having to depend on what is being said by the characters. It's so rare to see a comic not use these techniques that it actually becomes an neat story telling trick when it does pop up. [http://4thletter.net/wp-content/uploads//thiefofthieves-01.jpg]

Good thing that VNs use music to set a tone, emphasis or a dynamic without having to depend on what is being said by the characters.

In VNs though, there is no effort to experiment with these options despite being a primarily visual medium.

But that's just wrong. The novel part is primary, not the visuals. If you were expecting good visuals you had very very wrong mindset. Though that doesn't mean that no VN tries to do stuff visually. Fate/Stay Night comes to mind as an example.

Hell, you even said it yourself: "There's no reason to make special CGs for each scene, unless something interesting is happening it's just 2 or more people talking in a room." In a VN, two people talking in a room never looks interesting.

There are many reasons why two people talking in a room can be interesting. The dialogue and the interactions between those characters for example.

If it is the novel part that is the primary part (in spite of the name "visual novel"), then it is still a bad format. The word part of a visual novel is often reduced to one/two sentence captions that appear on the screen one at a time. You can set an automated scroller to move from one line to the next, but if you have a fast enough reading speed, the autoscrollers are too slow and you have to move to the next line with a mouse click or space bar. That is a terrible way to have to read a novel.

Plays Diablo, no problem.

Plays VN, CLICKING ON THE MOUSE IS HARD!!!

Edit: Actually having a few lines is far better way to read, you don't have a problem of being distracted mid page and starting over.

I don't like the constant clicking in Diablo either. I find that even more annoying, and so does anyone else sitting in earshot. Perhaps it isn't the VNs I don't like, but repetitive strain injuries.

 

[FC Groningen]

I've posted regarding whether I like the majority of the VN's earlier. Since then, people seem to be divided on whether they are "terrible" or "occasionally extremely good". My problem so far with VN's is that most of them follow the same guidelines, which on top of the little interaction and pace can make for a very boring experience.

I think Yahtzee commented on it in his older videos (some JRPG) in which he states that Japanese games tend to be full of text and in which plots are driven by characters blatantly telling everything.

As I said, most VN's I read so far follow the same route. Some introduction in which all characters are introduced somewhat which have a lighter tone. After a while, you have picked a (female) character you'll stick with for the rest of the game. For the sake of "character dept", some problems are introduced which can only be toppled together with the protagonist, which are mostly the same problems like daddy issues, a "wound" from the past, a bad childhood etc. Most of these issues are solved eventually with a firm speech of the protagonist, or playing the knight in shining armor in another way. After, the protagonist is rewarded with the girl and they happily live ever after.

My personal opinion on the matter is that forcing issues onto characters does not make for interesting characters. Humor, wit and character traits that stand out do much more than adding angst and drama each time. It's the reason I liked Grisaia no Kajitsu above all other novels, despite it resorting to angst and issues again later. The latter is what I tie directly to "Japan" and hence I'd love to see some Western visual novels.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

My personal opinion on the matter is that forcing issues onto characters does not make for interesting characters.

Isn't this normal in fiction(and in real life)? I really can't think of a single main character in any fiction that doesn't have ANY kind of problems in his/her life. Everyone has some kind of issues and the way the character handles those issues is what defines them as characters. That is what gives them depth. Personally I wouldn't like to see a Mr. Perfect without any problems or issues in fiction. That would be just boring.

Humor, wit and character traits that stand out do much more than adding angst and drama each time.

This is also a good way to tell about a character, I have to admit. That's why some VNs get a fandisk which usually only focuses on more lighthearted and humorous stuff but keeps the same characters of previous, more serious VN.

 

[FC Groningen]

Well technically not in real life. Assuming you're a guy, how many girls did you date? How many of those required you to deal with similar problems from the past? I'm well aware that a lot of games and series introduce some sort of problem, but the reason I mentioned it here is because most of the times it feels sort of "forced".

--> Common route. Bright sun, clear sky. Decent girl with some typical Japanese character traits in your average daily life setting (high school or something).

--> "x" route. Dark past, angst, drama etc introduced. Standard development of a lot of VN's.

To me, it feels like most developers only know how to "deepen" the plot in 1 way. The "tip of the iceberg" approach just gets old rather fast. Especially if it doesn't fit the setting. An entire game focussed on, let's say a great war, natural disasters, famine/poverty, or disease; fine, I understand related problems arise. Teenagers in high school; completely different story. Especially if it's all out of self pity and indeed can be solved by a firm emotional speech of the protagonist.

 

[Kaimax]

I don't like the constant clicking in Diablo either. I find that even more annoying, and so does anyone else sitting in earshot. Perhaps it isn't the VNs I don't like, but repetitive strain injuries.

You do know that you can also use the keyboard to progress in a VN.
Enter, to progress and Ctrl/Shift to fast forward/Skip. Heck, most VN developers nowadays makes keyboard usage much more easier and you can simply use one hand.
One developer (GIGA, maker of Baldr Sky) has it's own unique key setup by only using the Z,X,C and space for all the controls (Of course with the arrow keys) and it's implemented on all of their products.

Speaking of controls here, just for shits and giggles, one developer, "WAFFLE" who only does straight Nukige (Straight Porn) made one of their VNs Voice activated, so you have free use of both of your arms (plot wise, your character got both his arm broken).

 

[Mikeybb]

They're not my thing to be honest.

Closest I've come to stepping into that game type is the "Ace Attorney" series which admittedly I found a lot of fun.

The few walking simulators (a term that always makes me smile and thusly I've become fond of) I've played were more enjoyable than the visual novels I tried out.
This isn't to say that VN aren't good, but more that I've never found one that engaged enough to draw me in.
Hatoful boyfriend was probably the one I got furthest with, but it was more an expression of confused curiosity, rather than genuine enjoyment.
The worst, and most forgettable, made me wish I was sitting in my comfy chair reading a good book instead.

So, where does it sit in the gaming world?
In that curious spot, part way between entertainment mediums.
Straddling the border of traditional fiction and electronic entertainment.
It needs a name that conveys the elements of both.
The enhanced visuals of the electronic medium and the detailed story telling of the written element.
That describes the engaging elements of both novel and visual medium.
I suggest "click-to-read computamated-electrobooks".

 

[SquallTheBlade]

Well technically not in real life.

I don't know about you but every friend I've had and every girl that I've dated has had some problems in their lives. First when you get to know people you don't see them. No one wants to share their problems with just anybody. But after you get to know them better you start to see that their lives aren't perfect either. Maybe they have problems with their family, other friends, relatives, school or work. And it's perfectly normal.

Assuming you're a guy, how many girls did you date? How many of those required you to deal with similar problems from the past? I'm well aware that a lot of games and series introduce some sort of problem, but the reason I mentioned it here is because most of the times it feels sort of "forced".

Issues with families are something that I see quite often.

--> Common route. Bright sun, clear sky. Decent girl with some typical Japanese character traits in your average daily life setting (high school or something).

--> "x" route. Dark past, angst, drama etc introduced. Standard development of a lot of VN's.

I don't know, this is something that I quite like. It's the contrast between more serious stuff and lighthearted stuff. First you see that everything seems pretty normal. All is good. But after a while you realize that not everything is well. Then stuff happens and ultimately issue gets resolved in a good way or a bad way.

Teenagers in high school; completely different story. Especially if it's all out of self pity and indeed can be solved by a firm emotional speech of the protagonist.

What VNs have you read where the character was in self pity? Those that I have read had nothing of sorts in them. Maybe I'm just lucky with what I pick up. High school setting is just one of many. It would be dumb to say that all VNs focus on that. And even then, teenagers have problems too and depending on what kind of setting the VN actually has, the problems might be pretty serious.

And hey, this has barely nothing to do with the VNs as a medium anymore. That's more like complaining about the story itself. VNs are a medium which can have many different kinds of stories in them.

 

[Scars Unseen]

What VNs have you read where the character was in self pity? Those that I have read had nothing of sorts in them. Maybe I'm just lucky with what I pick up.

Takeru from Muv-Luv Alternative would probably count, but it isn't treated like a good thing, and is actually part of his character development.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I don't like the constant clicking in Diablo either. I find that even more annoying, and so does anyone else sitting in earshot. Perhaps it isn't the VNs I don't like, but repetitive strain injuries.

I'm not a fan of the clicking either. That's why I map the VN interface controls to my XBox 360 controller so I can comfortably read the VN from my couch.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Well technically not in real life. Assuming you're a guy, how many girls did you date? How many of those required you to deal with similar problems from the past? I'm well aware that a lot of games and series introduce some sort of problem, but the reason I mentioned it here is because most of the times it feels sort of "forced".

--> Common route. Bright sun, clear sky. Decent girl with some typical Japanese character traits in your average daily life setting (high school or something).

--> "x" route. Dark past, angst, drama etc introduced. Standard development of a lot of VN's.

To me, it feels like most developers only know how to "deepen" the plot in 1 way. The "tip of the iceberg" approach just gets old rather fast. Especially if it doesn't fit the setting. An entire game focussed on, let's say a great war, natural disasters, famine/poverty, or disease; fine, I understand related problems arise. Teenagers in high school; completely different story. Especially if it's all out of self pity and indeed can be solved by a firm emotional speech of the protagonist.

Yeah, that seems to be a common trait in Japanese writing: the hidden depths narrative. Yume Miru Kusuri, Fate, Katawa Shoujo and various other vns have this structure and while I personally like it and find those stories compelling, I can understand the tedium. It is also made worse by the whole "protagonist solves everything" mentality of the VNs; I think Yume Miru Kusuri had it so that both parties solved each other's problems through their relationship but it's definably true for the other two. Still, VNs are stuck in a literary rut of sorts and will become more varied as time moves on.

As for the rest of the forum, well, this kind of went nuts. I know that VNs are a source of contention but I didn't expect it to be this much of one. The opinions on display are mostly in support or hate and I'm not sure we are able to come to mutual understanding here.

 

[SweetShark]

Now I have the desire to post all the VN I played all over these years.
But for me:
I "played" a game with the name "Jupiter Knot". You just read it, not make any kinf of choices, nothing. Just reading.
Results? Still many reviewers see it like a game. Even Jim.
So, even if I say this is not a game, other proffesionals said it is a game and it is a good one.
In other words, play/read Jupiter Knot. It is good.

 

[VanQ]

Plays Diablo, no problem.

Plays VN, CLICKING ON THE MOUSE IS HARD!!!

Edit: Actually having a few lines is far better way to read, you don't have a problem of being distracted mid page and starting over.

Diablo caters to the ADHD tier instant gratification, twitch reflex, big explosions and gore in your face most gamers expect these days[footnote]Something that I can appreciate from time to time, just not always.[/footnote]. A VN requires patience and an attention span greater than a 5yo's in order to get any gratification out of it. There's a reason that I said in my previous post that VNs don't mix well with most gamers.

 

[VanQ]

Almost all of those covers are of (teenage?) girls in skimpy school uniforms. They also all have "ero" ratings placed right along with writing and visuals. I'm not against VNs in concept, I actually think new types of story telling are very interesting, but this list doesn't make me want to rush out and jump into the medium.

Forgive me for the several days late post but it took me a while to find the folder with these titles in them. So since girls aren't your thing, here's a list of English translated VNs that might be more to your liking.

-Absolute Obedience
-Silver Chaos
-Starry ☆ Sky ~in Spring~
-Togainu no Chi
-Tokimeki Memorial Girl?s Side
-Yo-Jin-Bo The Bodyguards

A big misconception that seems to be popping up in this thread is that VNs are for hikkikomori/NEET men. There's plenty out there for everybody.

 

[VanQ]

I didn't compare the games, I just rolled out my eyes at a gamer complaining about needing to press a button in a game, when in just about every game you press the same button thousands of times, Diablo just seemed the best comparison, though any shooter or RPG would suffice.

Holy shit, just got to Michiru's side story in Grisaia, the girl needs a cookie and a hug.

I figured that you weren't directly comparing them. I just noted why I thought that people are totally okay clicking away a million times if something explodes when they click but they complain when it takes a couple thousands clicks to shift text.

Grisaia is a personal favourite of mine. Michiru is one of the most fun characters I've had the pleasure of reading about, I have to say. I honestly think she makes a far, far better match with Yuuji than any of the other girls. Her route is especially bitter-sweet. Poor Nekonyan. ;_;

Grisaia cops a lot of flak for being generic but for some reason I really enjoyed the atmosphere and enjoyed Yuuji's interactions with the other characters. If the VN had one great flaw it's that there is no Chizuru route. I really would like to learn more about she and Yuuji met, because it's hinted that it was under extraordinary circumstances, since she knows about his work as a soldier.

Spoilers for the Amane route, in case you haven't read it or seen the anime yet:

Spoiler

I never got around to reading the second and third VNs just yet, but I really want to know what happened to Kazuki after she helps Amane escape from her deranged classmates. I heard that plothole was resolved in one of the later VNs. Hopefully the second season of the anime will cover that.