Warhammer 40K's story, how is it even remotely appealing?

[Olliesama]

My favorite aspect of the W40K world is how humanity is the dominant species and yet can be seen as less advanced than the modern world. They're superstitious, xenophobic and don't properly understand the technology they use and believe it's due to the god referred to as the 'Machine Spirit' and is begrudgingly ignorant to other technologies and anything that's different is seen as blasphemy to someone that's been kept alive for years on life-support but is just a vegetable. Every race is as bad as the others and has plenty of conspiracies in it's world such as how the 'Machine Spirit' may be a Necron C'tan god or how humanity kills it's own citizens to keep the Emperor alive. It's all so silly but rather than coming off foolish seems hugely misguided and sickening. Shows how we're potentially at our peak now.
As well as that I love how original it is, many of the concepts are so copied that to some it's come off as generic as a result of the copies but they're still very original. The variety of the universe makes anything and everything possible which brings out the best and worst of our own imaginations.

 

[MetroidNut]

OP, I used to share your opinion to the letter (especially the Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy bit). But then I discovered that the entire universe is subject to extreme alternate interpretations.

On one hand, you can interpret it as being played straight, a deep and emotional story about heroic Space Marines fighting for honor against overwhelming odds and terrifying foes. Which, for me at least, brings about that aforementioned apathy, especially given how the Space Marines are usually portrayed as heroic while they massacre innocents FOR THE EMPEROR.

On the other hand, you could take the entire thing to be a campy, 80s-tastic comedy. Where the SPEHSS MAHREENS are arrogant assholes who kill more allies than enemies, Commissars execute soldiers for blinking, and most of the major villains are comic relief (ABADDON THE ARMLESS, FAILURE EXTRAORDINAIRE).

I think if you take the entire setting as a grand work of self-satire, it's a lot more fun.

 

[Zantos]

You might not like the whole military sci-fi/fantasy in a bleak dystopia, but that doesn't make them poor. Same with the tabletop codexs (codices?), and the plots for the games and whatever else they have going. Some may be better written than others, but on the whole it really is just a matter of opinion.

Now, I don't entirely agree with Saviordd's premise but his conclusion is a good one. He didn't just state "I don't like dystopian/military sci-fi/fantasy" he laid out several problems he has with Warhammer 40,000. If you want to refute his position, you have to actually address it. You cannot simply make up one that doesn't exist and act as if the job is done. That's not how intelligent discussion works.

The problem is though, at the time of posting the things he laid out as problems were only subjective problems. You can't refute that it's over the top, or that it's overly violent, or that it's awfully bleak. It is, but whether or not you think that's a problem is subjective, and if he doesn't like that sort of thing then there is nothing anyone can say to persuade him otherwise.

The only thing really that I could dispute was that 90% of the characters are jackasses (mild paraphrasing?), though when I have absolutely no idea how he came to that conclusion beyond him looking them up on the wiki, it's really difficult to back up why I'd disagree with that with any common source material. And that's before the ones that really are jackasses, but in the context that's part of the appeal of the character.

 

[Vhite]

While your arguments are valid, I would like to share counter argument that may shed some light on why people like warhammer universe.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

 

[DoPo]

The problem I see with WH40K is that everyone is grim and dark, ALL THE TIME. This makes them just whiny bitches, not characters you can relate to.

Well, whether that is good or bad depends on if you want to relate to them, right? I can think of other works where you can't relate to the character, and yet they are still well received. Sponge Bob Squarepants, for example is sort of on the other end of the scale. I'm enjoying the spectacle, so to say, rather than try to unearth qualities in WH40K, I'm not actually after to have fun.

 

[TwiZtah]

The problem I see with WH40K is that everyone is grim and dark, ALL THE TIME. This makes them just whiny bitches, not characters you can relate to.

Well, whether that is good or bad depends on if you want to relate to them, right? I can think of other works where you can't relate to the character, and yet they are still well received. Sponge Bob Squarepants, for example is sort of on the other end of the scale. I'm enjoying the spectacle, so to say, rather than try to unearth qualities in WH40K, I'm not actually after to have fun.

I'm not talking about having fun. Jim Sterling covered this pretty good. Where everyone is grim and dark all the time and that becomes the norm, then you stop noticing that the game is dark and grim. To have sadness you need happyness.

 

[DoctorObviously]

Opinions.

I personally think WH40K is the single most detailed, epic universe out of any work of fiction I have seen. Of course, this all depends on your taste, the kind of mood you're in and what kind of person you are. I can get really immersed in it though I can see why some people don't like it.

 

[DoPo]

The problem I see with WH40K is that everyone is grim and dark, ALL THE TIME. This makes them just whiny bitches, not characters you can relate to.

Well, whether that is good or bad depends on if you want to relate to them, right? I can think of other works where you can't relate to the character, and yet they are still well received. Sponge Bob Squarepants, for example is sort of on the other end of the scale. I'm enjoying the spectacle, so to say, rather than try to unearth qualities in WH40K, I'm not actually after to have fun.

I'm not talking about having fun. Jim Sterling covered this pretty good. Where everyone is grim and dark all the time and that becomes the norm, then you stop noticing that the game is dark and grim. To have sadness you need happyness.

That is certainly true - it devalues the whole grimdarkness of it all, however, it doesn't stop me from enjoying it. It depends whether you want tragedy or not, I suppose. You can have a setting where a death is a truly horrible thing, or maybe few deaths. In WH40K the death count racks up faster than speeding on the highway. Devastation is measured in thousands, even more, planets get destroyed with the same ease you'd swat a fly. Sure, it's laughably hard to be moved by any of the actually fucked up that's going on. But I still like it. In a way it contributes to my enjoyment.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

the moment the story kicks in I just shut down and the game with it. It is just not for me to the point that it can actively kill my interest or outright make me despise the game.

It doesn't seem to realise that for all the grimdark-doom-death to have any weight you need to have something to contrast it with.

I think you hit the nail on the head for me.

This.

I have a number of friends who love the setting, OP, and I am equally baffled by it. I thought your link to TV Tropes on dark apathy is quite appropriate. Everything I've read or heard about the universe makes all sides seem so unlikable that I have no vested interest in anything that happens there.

Also, I have to say, some of the comments in this thread make me want to cry. Not because they like 40k - more power to them if they do for being able to find someone in that universe who isn't an asshat - but for some of the quasi literary defenses being thrown around. Like this one:

Reading this immediately made me think of the phrase "Those who can do, those who can't teach".

Bullshit. That is one of the stupidest adages in all of western culture. It is flat out wrong.

I teach writing. I'm also a published author. Most teachers ALSO do.

Or, to put it another way, the adage should be "those who can do, and also teach."

The fact that the story breaks rules on what makes good stories and yet people (and lets be honest, a lot of people) greatly enjoy it means that those rules are wrong, simple as that.

Actually, no. Lots of people enjoy Porn too, but that doesn't mean that Porn is the ultimate form of story telling.

People enjoy Jerry Springer, but he isn't a modern Shakespeare.

People enjoying something that happens to have a bad story doesn't mean that the definition of a good story needs to be revised - it means that people sometimes like guilty pleasures. Like Porn. Or bad romance novels. Or those 'novels' that are basically corporate fan-fictions for various science fiction franchises. Or Twilight.

Warhammer 40k is shlock - badly written, but fun. Some people, like myself and the OP, are turned off by it. I don't like Twilight either, but I proudly display several Aliens and Resident Evil novels on my bookshelf. Are they well written? No - they're shlock. They're guilty pleasures.

I don't confuse them with literature. Lois McMaster Bujold and Jacqueline Carey are literature. S.D. Perry (of the Aliens and Res Evil novels) is shlock. I enjoy reading both.

 

[goose4291]

My major probem with 40k is as thus:

Unfortunately as its been doing the rounds for nearly 30 years some people (I'll stress SOME at this point) can't differentiate between it and reality.

Example:
I once went out for a pint with some of my mates after I joined the Navy in one of their hometowns and we were discussing, as you do the tools of our trade i.e SA-80s and the like.

Some gimp who'd come out with my mates came out with something about "Heavy Bolters ripping people apart like wet paper towels" and so on.

I couldn't bring myself to talk to him for the rest of the evening.

I know that comes across as petty, but it just really annoyed me.

 

[Megalodon]

The problem I see with WH40K is that everyone is grim and dark, ALL THE TIME. This makes them just whiny bitches, not characters you can relate to.

How would you define a "whiny *****" of a character? Because I would tend to think of stuff like Rob Schneider in the Stallone Judge Dredd, Rose from Doctor Who, or Anakin Skywalker in the prequels as "whiny bitches". The bad 40k charcters tend to be unrelatable, not becuase they're whiny bitches, but because they're one dimensional caracatures that embrace the worst over the top elements of the setting without any redeeming feature or character development, such as Kaldor Draigo or the books of CS Goto.

 

[HalfTangible]

Probably for the same reason there are people who like the transformers' movies. The difference being that Warhammer is COMPLETELY unapologetic about the fact that it exists to cause massive explosions. Where Transformers puts a conspiracy theory, Warhammer puts an Exterminatus.

"Sir, the planet's overtaken by a cult!"
"HERESY! Blow the planet up!"

"Sir, the guardsmen are using strategy and tactics!"
"Heresy! Blow the planet up!"

"Sir, my ice cream melted on the planet below!"
"Heresy!" *shoots him* "Okay, now blow the planet up!"

On contrast: yeah, you need something nice and good to offset all the horrendous violence and death in order to take it seriously... except you're NOT supposed to take it seriously. If anything in the setting is meant to be taken seriously (doubt it) it's how people act and react to various situations in stories set in that universe, and that DOES get some contrast because of how different characters behave when presented with the same ridiculous problems.

The good 40K characters are the ones who don't realize how grim and dark the universe is, and try to be good people as best they can. There's a story in which a Blood Angel space marine sees a child falling into false idolatry. He looks at the idols for a minute, tells the kid he's really good, and then tells him to only make statues of the Emperor from now on.

In the end though, even in stories with bad characters, it's just fun and/or funny to have a ridiculous level of violence in a universe where it'd just be a footnote.

On misogyny: Honestly don't see it. Space Marines (despite the name) are basically space-monks (all male) and there's a corresponding faction of space-nuns (all female) There are few female guard models because of miniature match-up and mold issues (issues which can be alleiviated if you really need to) Orks reproduce by spores so technically there AREN'T any girls or guys(yes, i know they call themselves 'boyz', shut up)

 

[OtherSideofSky]

The Warhammer 40k story is hilarious. I have no interest in actually playing the game or reading any of the novels, but I frequently sit down with friends and laugh uproariously at randomly chosen pages of the Lexicanum.

 

[Paragon Fury]

The reason why the story for WH40K has gotten out of hand is that it pretty much prints money for Gamesworkshop, so they have no desire to bring it to a sensible, reasonable conclusion. Its the same thing with so many TV shows and other things - the writer comes out with a story where they likely have a good vision for the whole series.....and then it starts making ludicrous amounts of money and then they or the publisher get greedy and try to make as much as possible, story integrity be damned.

 

[Blunderboy]

Different people like different things. What seems like a point against it to you, may be a point in its favour to other people.

Once again this image sums up my feelings.

People are different. Let's stop wasting time on shit like this.