WARNING: Last of Us 2 has leaked

[TheMysteriousGX]

Thus this character in THLOU2 being trans also presents a problem. Unless the character is in their 50's like Joel and were around before the world collapsed, it will be hard pressed writing to justify how the character could be a transperson in a world where every medical supply must be used for survival and wasting any supplies to make someone trans just doesn't make sense in a world that has effective ended. As a result one of the defining physical traits about the character makes no sense and thus runs a high risk of pulling the player out of it.

What the gaming press and bloggers will assume is people just hate the character because they are transphobic, which I don't think is genuine. Sure some people will be made uneasy about it, and even some many be transphobic.....but to say that's the core reason the character might possibly be disliked is hyperbole at best. There are many other reasons why the character could be disliked, and you have to ask yourself a question before calling people transphobic (you in a general sense not you specifically GX. I'm using generic terms here) "If this character wasn't trans, would they be likable?" If the answer to that is no then the dislike isn't sole based on the transgenderness of the character. The character might just be a scummy piece of shit and nobody want to be forced to play as.

...so yeah, like I said:

If you don't like the new character because of the first italicized paragraph, fine.
If you don't like the new character because they're trans, well...
(If the character is even trans and it's not just channers being weird around different body types)

One of the most mentioned thing I've heard Gamers(tm) criticizing about this character is how they "don't look like a woman".

Which, yeah: it's the post apocalypse. If she's trans, she's not gonna have access to a whole lot of hormones. If she's trans, she's not gonna look like the Gamer Media Default Woman. (As much as that's a bullshit standard to begin with: just look at criticisms of Ellie's or nuLaura Croft's designs for how little you have to deviate from the GMDW to get labeled as an SJW agenda)

Of course, that's assuming she's trans, and the Gamers(tm) aren't doing that thing where they don't think most actual female body types exist.

 

[CriticalGaming]

...so yeah, like I said:
One of the most mentioned thing I've heard Gamers(tm) criticizing about this character is how they "don't look like a woman".

Which, yeah: it's the post apocalypse. If she's trans, she's not gonna have access to a whole lot of hormones. If she's trans, she's not gonna look like the Gamer Media Default Woman. (As much as that's a bullshit standard to begin with: just look at criticisms of Ellie's or nuLaura Croft's designs for how little you have to deviate from the GMDW to get labeled as an SJW agenda)

Of course, that's assuming she's trans, and the Gamers(tm) aren't doing that thing where they don't think most actual female body types exist.

Another thing I would like to point out that doesn't indicate much good faith in how TLOU2 will actually play out, is how Naughty Dog, Sony, and even the voice actors within the game have reacted to this.

First of all, Naughty Dog and Sony Copywrite Striking Youtube channels for merely TALKING about the spoilers is not only scummy it also leads me to believe that they aren't confident in the game and want to pull the wool back over peoples eyes as much as possible so that people will blindly buy the game Day 1. On top of that Neil Druckman (game director) and Troy Baker (VO of Joel) both have come out to make statements. Troy Baker came out begging people to give the game a chance and that it's just a video game so keep and open mind or some such nonsense. Neil came out to tell people some bollocks on how revolutionary this game will be for narative characters or female characters.....I couldn't be bothered to listen to him be dishonest after not apologizing for trying to ruin Youtube channels for no reason.


Basically the clear panic that the studio's have shown in regards to this game make me think that they aren't that confident in the game changing people's minds after seeing the leaks. The events that have been spoiled for people have not been received well and Naughty Dog has done nothing but try to cover that stuff up, which means it's most likely going to play out exactly the way the leaks indicate and thus the negative reaction is not likely to be changed by the actual game.

And the more the comes out the more I am thinking the sexual orientation of the main characters is the least of the games narative problems.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Another thing I would like to point out that doesn't indicate much good faith in how TLOU2 will actually play out, is how Naughty Dog, Sony, and even the voice actors within the game have reacted to this.

First of all, Naughty Dog and Sony Copywrite Striking Youtube channels for merely TALKING about the spoilers is not only scummy it also leads me to believe that they aren't confident in the game and want to pull the wool back over peoples eyes as much as possible so that people will blindly buy the game Day 1. On top of that Neil Druckman (game director) and Troy Baker (VO of Joel) both have come out to make statements. Troy Baker came out begging people to give the game a chance and that it's just a video game so keep and open mind or some such nonsense. Neil came out to tell people some bollocks on how revolutionary this game will be for narative characters or female characters.....I couldn't be bothered to listen to him be dishonest after not apologizing for trying to ruin Youtube channels for no reason.


Basically the clear panic that the studio's have shown in regards to this game make me think that they aren't that confident in the game changing people's minds after seeing the leaks. The events that have been spoiled for people have not been received well and Naughty Dog has done nothing but try to cover that stuff up, which means it's most likely going to play out exactly the way the leaks indicate and thus the negative reaction is not likely to be changed by the actual game.

And the more the comes out the more I am thinking the sexual orientation of the main characters is the least of the games narative problems.

It could possibly be due to the fact that a lot of people have seemingly made their minds up already, based on a few sentences of plot points and the equally scummy practice of trying to spoil about five years worth of hard time, money and energy.

Yeah they’re in damage control now trying to salvage all that, because people - let’s face it - can be uniquely idiotic. A lot of these YouTuber’s jumping on the bandwagon to cash in on the commotion aren’t many ticks above the paparazzi imo.

Anyways.

 

[Houseman]

It's not as if a story could be ruined by one or two crucial plot points... Right?

The Rise of Skywalker was still good, right?

 

[CriticalGaming]

It could possibly be due to the fact that a lot of people have seemingly made their minds up already, based on a few sentences of plot points and the equally scummy practice of trying to spoil about five years worth of hard time, money and energy.

From what I've heard, there are full cinematics that have leaked, it's not just a few sentences of plot.

 

[BrawlMan]

I see it like this, I understand a damage-control they are trying to do, but copyright striking people for just talking about it on video is dumb. It only makes you look all the more incompitent and look like an asshole. That said, a good many of these people on YouTube are just jumping on the bandwagon to get clicks and views. Just another version of the paparazzi. Scumbags. As for one of the actors saying that the game is revolutionary for female characters.Yeah buddy, there are great female characters in games long before The last of us showed up. And there continues to be with or without you.

 

[CriticalGaming]

As for one of the actors saying that the game is revolutionary and female characters or video games. Yeah buddy, there are great female characters in games long before The last of us showed up. And there continues to be with or without you.

I would also argue that if they don't make this trans character a likable and enjoyable character to play/root for, then it could only end up hurting future games having LBGTQ representation as other game companies will look to this character as an example and if the character is hated by the community then that will be an excuse for other companies not to bother with trying a trans character themselves. Which would be a shame for the community.

 

[SilentPony]

It's not as if a story could be ruined by one or two crucial plot points... Right?

The Rise of Skywalker was still good, right?

HEY! This is a civilized conversation, we don't mention that name here

 

[CriticalGaming]

Looks like Sony has also flooded the PSN with over 2500 reviews for the game, pre-release.....ensuring the gme has a 5-star review for as long as possible post release.

hmm....Everytime you turn around you can't help but find another red flag in regards to this game quite possibly not being very good.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Looks like Sony has also flooded the PSN with over 2500 reviews for the game, pre-release.....ensuring the gme has a 5-star review for as long as possible post release.

hmm....Everytime you turn around you can't help but find another red flag in regards to this game quite possibly not being very good.

Who the fuck cares about PSN reviews?

Neil Druckmann's own words (before the leaks) are my biggest red flag for the game:
“We didn’t set out to make the biggest game we’ve ever done, we set out to tell this really ambitious story that became the biggest game we’ve ever done. And that’s why we took as long as we have."

“The story we laid out four years ago is really complex, has a large cast of characters. The core of it is simple, but where it goes and the twist and turns are complex. We needed more time for cinematics, we needed more locations, we needed more types of enemies. So the scope of it kept growing.”

That sounds like bad development to me. Funny thing is that how developers describe a game to you to sell you on it has the biggest tells over anything. I remember the Bungie dev interview during their Destiny E3 reveal and I knew it was going to be shit from listening to the devs explain the game.

But can we just wait for the game to come out and play it?

 

[CriticalGaming]

But can we just wait for the game to come out and play it?

We sure can, and I'm sure a lot of people will still play the shit out of this game.

But this thread was spawned from a discussion about leaks that highly suggest unfavorable things about a highly anticipated release, so conversation is going to happen especially as more and more new unfolds.

Nobody really cares about PSN reviews, but the point of what I said is the fact that there are so many reviews 5 weeks before the game comes out and it's impossible for them to exist. Professional reviewers who get early media copies do not get things 5-weeks in advance nor do they bother posting user reviews on Playstation Network, long before any review embargo is lifted.

The drama around these leaks, the panic and public disaster coming from both Naughty dog and Sony, is frankly rather fascinating to watch. Just like Fallout 76, Anthem, and No Man's Sky drama was fun to watch.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

We sure can, and I'm sure a lot of people will still play the shit out of this game.

But this thread was spawned from a discussion about leaks that highly suggest unfavorable things about a highly anticipated release, so conversation is going to happen especially as more and more new unfolds.

Nobody really cares about PSN reviews, but the point of what I said is the fact that there are so many reviews 5 weeks before the game comes out and it's impossible for them to exist. Professional reviewers who get early media copies do not get things 5-weeks in advance nor do they bother posting user reviews on Playstation Network, long before any review embargo is lifted.

The drama around these leaks, the panic and public disaster coming from both Naughty dog and Sony, is frankly rather fascinating to watch. Just like Fallout 76, Anthem, and No Man's Sky drama was fun to watch.

Can you rate something as long as you bought it? Meaning pre-orderers could rate it?

But the game isn't out so you don't know how "fun" the drama is yet. I guess it's fun if you enjoy reading like stuff on the level of Youtube comments, the new XCOM had a "controversy" too among gamers that was pretty stupid. I don't get it, why waste time on stuff like that when you can use that time to do something you actually like. The whole trying to "spin" things is stupid because well over 90% of the people that's going to buy the game have no idea, they don't follow gaming news. If anything, it brings the stuff more into the light than it would've been in the 1st place. The reason I play the game or not play the game has nothing to do with story spoilers.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Can you rate something as long as you bought it? Meaning pre-orderers could rate it?

But the game isn't out so you don't know how "fun" the drama is yet. I guess it's fun if you enjoy reading like stuff on the level of Youtube comments, the new XCOM had a "controversy" too among gamers that was pretty stupid. I don't get it, why waste time on stuff like that when you can use that time to do something you actually like. The whole trying to "spin" things is stupid because well over 90% of the people that's going to buy the game have no idea, they don't follow gaming news. If anything, it brings the stuff more into the light than it would've been in the 1st place. The reason I play the game or not play the game has nothing to do with story spoilers.

As far as i can tell, you can't rate the game as a general customer right now. Even with a pre-order. (I have a pre-order still) and I cannot rate the game.

 

[BrawlMan]

All Games Delta

www.allgamesdelta.net

 

[stroopwafel]

I'm intrigued by the game and definitely going to play it. I feel many people let their mind be made up by youtubers. It takes courage to put fan expectations on it's head with a game 7 years in the making and I can only appreciate that. To me it seems more they wanted to highlight the universality of emotions like resentment and hate that really makes no distinction between self-ascribed identity or orientation. Which is something people seems to get particularly hung op on but in the context of the story these kind of messages is what provides meaning. It doesn't look ND pulled this story haphazardly out of their ass given the extreme care and attention to detail just to make a cheap 'SJW' point which I personally would have strongly disliked as well.

I feel many of those youtubers are deliberately poisoning the waters with their reductionist takes just for clicks by deliberately capitalizing on anti-SJW bias even if these assumptions are completely out of context. Context provides meaning but meaning is absent with loose takes unattached by a coherent narrative. I know the director is a big proponent of 'equal representation' but I don't think that is a bad thing. It's only a bad thing when it's part of an agenda but I don't see how that is the case with this game. The kind of main, thematic element seems to have nothing to do with any of the accusations that are thrown at the developers. If anything it could transcend these kind of notions.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I'm intrigued by the game and definitely going to play it. I feel many people let their mind be made up by youtubers. It takes courage to put fan expectations on it's head with a game 7 years in the making and I can only appreciate that. To me it seems more they wanted to highlight the universality of emotions like resentment and hate that really makes no distinction between self-ascribed identity or orientation. Which is something people seems to get particularly hung op on but in the context of the story these kind of messages is what provides meaning. It doesn't look ND pulled this story haphazardly out of their ass given the extreme care and attention to detail just to make a cheap 'SJW' point which I personally would have strongly disliked as well.

I feel many of those youtubers are deliberately poisoning the waters with their reductionist takes just for clicks by deliberately capitalizing on anti-SJW bias even if these assumptions are completely out of context. Context provides meaning but meaning is absent with loose takes unattached by a coherent narrative. I know the director is a big proponent of 'equal representation' but I don't think that is a bad thing. It's only a bad thing when it's part of an agenda but I don't see how that is the case with this game. The kind of main, thematic element seems to have nothing to do with any of the accusations that are thrown at the developers. If anything it could transcend these kind of notions.

I can mostly agree with you here. However I think what the Youtubers have done is still fair game to talk about, especially in the context of everything Naughty Dog and Neil Druckman have put forth in regards to this game. There are warning signs all over the place for this game to be lacking.

And frankly I think the large amount of negative backlash is from fear, which is a testament to just how great the first game was. People love the characters that were created for the first game and a lot of people said that TLOU didn't even need a sequel. Now it is getting a sequel people were on board because of how good the first game was, however once the leaks kind of spoiled the serious possibility that the characters we grew to love are destroyed for the sake of playing some random other character just stinks of people being right about them not making a TLOU2 in the first place.

If they wanted to explore this storyline, I think it would have been a much better idea to do it with an entirely new cast of characters. New characters can exist and a meanful story can still happen while taking place in TLOU world. But because they chose to keep the same characters that people love and destroy them for the sake of this new protagonist who doesn't seem likable in the least, people are upset. I can see why, but like i said before I am gonna get the game and I'm gonna review it here and we'll see how it goes.

 

[Adam Jensen]

It's kind of hilarious that some people think that TLoU2 will flop. I bet that most people who shit on it are still going to end up buying it. I said it before and I'll say it again - gamers are, by and large, a stupid bunch of people with little to no self respect and little to no impulse control. They absolutely must purchase the latest, shiniest game, especially if it's exclusive to the system they own. So yeah, if I were Sony or Naughty Dog, I'd rest easy knowing this fact.

 

[stroopwafel]

All Games Delta

www.allgamesdelta.net

I can mostly agree with you here. However I think what the Youtubers have done is still fair game to talk about, especially in the context of everything Naughty Dog and Neil Druckman have put forth in regards to this game. There are warning signs all over the place for this game to be lacking.

And frankly I think the large amount of negative backlash is from fear, which is a testament to just how great the first game was. People love the characters that were created for the first game and a lot of people said that TLOU didn't even need a sequel. Now it is getting a sequel people were on board because of how good the first game was, however once the leaks kind of spoiled the serious possibility that the characters we grew to love are destroyed for the sake of playing some random other character just stinks of people being right about them not making a TLOU2 in the first place.

If they wanted to explore this storyline, I think it would have been a much better idea to do it with an entirely new cast of characters. New characters can exist and a meanful story can still happen while taking place in TLOU world. But because they chose to keep the same characters that people love and destroy them for the sake of this new protagonist who doesn't seem likable in the least, people are upset. I can see why, but like i said before I am gonna get the game and I'm gonna review it here and we'll see how it goes.

I can see how people can be disappointed but not how this warrants attacks on the developers integrity as if it was somehow made under SJW mind control. If anything the game appears to make no distinction between those who are able to commit atrocities and those exempt from it and rather shifts blame on the cycle of revenge with a cause and effect providing a real meaningful premise with the already established perspective from the first game as the narrative stakes. Rather it are many youtubers who want stereotypical characters and storylines which is what would occur if they simply retold the first game with prettier graphics. The 'fans' might be happy but I personally consider these kind of bold, creative choices much more intriguing.

If gaming ever wants to mature as an artform these kind of personal stories free from concessions or pandering also need to be told. It would have actually been easy for ND to just give fans exactly what they wanted, reap the 10s on metacritic and delight their corporate overlords but the fact that they chose artistic expression first speaks to their vision and courage to carry it out. This is what really pushes the envelope. It might not work out in the end but I can only appreciate a huge AAA title 7 years in the making actually tries.

 

[CriticalGaming]

It would have actually been easy for ND to just give fans exactly what they wanted

Except I don't really know that people wanted this at all. If anything I've seen people saying that TLOU never needed a sequel and that if they were going to make one, then it should revolve around completely new characters and not have anything to do with Joel and Ellie at all. People viewed their stories as complete. If anything they put these characters into the sequel out of obligation.

I don't see why a revenge story NEEDED Joel and Ellie in it at all.

I can see how people can be disappointed but not how this warrants attacks on the developers integrity

I think people's attacks were more generated from the copyright claims and aggressive attempts to stop people from even talking about the leaks and issuing false copyright claims that could ruin youtube channels. The developer response was very very poorly thought out and was clearly a knee-jerk reaction to the leaks, which only furthered people's reasons to hate on the game AND Naughty Dog as a whole.

 

[stroopwafel]

Except I don't really know that people wanted this at all. If anything I've seen people saying that TLOU never needed a sequel and that if they were going to make one, then it should revolve around completely new characters and not have anything to do with Joel and Ellie at all. People viewed their stories as complete. If anything they put these characters into the sequel out of obligation.

I don't see why a revenge story NEEDED Joel and Ellie in it at all.


I think people's attacks were more generated from the copyright claims and aggressive attempts to stop people from even talking about the leaks and issuing false copyright claims that could ruin youtube channels. The developer response was very very poorly thought out and was clearly a knee-jerk reaction to the leaks, which only furthered people's reasons to hate on the game AND Naughty Dog as a whole.

Ehmm..okay but I assume these were more Sony's decisions than ND's. Make sense though that they want to protect their product before it's even out and not have it damaged by a disgruntled (ex) employee. Eventhough ofcourse one can argue if copyright claims are the appropriate method to contain that damage and manage the youtube outcry.