We should forgive Bioware.

[Nimzabaat]

I really want to forgive Bioware. They have some extremely talented writers that can create immersion and emotional attachment with a player like few other games (or many stories for that matter). But damn, two--maybe three, I haven't played TOR--disasters in a row is pretty bad. Just one would be acceptable, but ME3's ending was a ***** slap to anyone who liked the story and characters, and DA2 was obviously a money grab.

Still, I want to go back to where I was a hardcore Bioware fan that would buy their stuff in an instant. All that it will take is for me to see some sincere effort on their part. If they take their time with DA3 and make it a kickass game that they can be proud of, I'll start calling myself a Bioware fan with pride again.

Actually there was an announcement a while back. Bioware had some pretty talented writers but they left the company to pursue other interests. That's where we get ME3s "If you're not ready to die, you're already dead!" (that was soooooo awful).

On topic: I'm not sure where this new mentality is coming from. The "Oh look someone shit in my cereal. Well I shall eat it and not complain because complaining means i'm acting entitled." It's up to us as consumers to not pay for an inferior product. That's how we make our feelings known. So everytime a developer comes out with a game that you would feel bad about purchasing; buy another copy of Skyrim or The Witcher (1 or 2) and tell them that good games get rewards. That's what I do.

Anybody need another copy of Skyrim... (just kidding)

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

Bioware has a long history of releasing pretty good games.

So did Rare, at one point. Same goes with Square Soft, a company that manages to maintain more relevance than Rare in the current market (albeit under a different name), but only barely, and they aren't nearly as untouchable as they were during their SNES/Early-PSX heyday. Then there's iD Software, they're still kicking around, but despite having created and defined an entire genre back in their glory days, their games are only so-so today.

I'm sure I could rattle-off a few other relics that used to be the gods of gaming 10+ years ago, but are barely remembered today (if they're even still around) because of how their games have dropped in quality. Now, I'm not saying that Bioware is definitely walking down that path as we speak, just saying that a back-log of good games doesn't mean anything if their games continue to not impress.

 

[Don Reba]

I don't hate Bioware. I simply acknowledge the reality of it having become just another mediocre publisher-owned developer and get on with my life. It might still surprise me, but probably won't.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I don't think people are wrong for being mad about all of the things that have happened to Bioware over the last few years. But I think the hatred for EA is reaching critical mass and has helped amplify the rage directed at Bioware, and it's just tiring. You should never put blind faith in a developer, no matter how good they are. By the same token, you shouldn't hate a developer because they're doing things differently, or because they're owned by one of the worst publishers currently in the industry, or because they've made "mediocre" "passable" games after a long history of great games.

Cannot speak for others, but I don't "hate" Bioware.
I simply will not buy their games because they are owned by EA.

Why?
In brief, it's because I find EA to be a dangerous force in the industry who continuously wants to force practices that I don't agree with (and make them industry-standard), and thus harmful to my hobby. Disagree if you wish, but most of my experiences with EA have largely been in the red.

Therefore, buying their games simply means supporting the source of the problem, and that's idiocy.

I... probably don't look at these types of things with enough emotion, though. I'm fairly neutral about most things in relation to developers and publishers. I don't like EA's business practices, but I like the games they release. I've had fun with a few Valve games, but I try to not use Steam if I can help it and I don't care about Half-Life 3. I don't harbor any strong feelings toward Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft. Maybe I'm just weird...

It's not terribly weird. Just a different part of the demographic.
Plus, people change. I used to care an awful lot more about Nintendo and Sony than I do now, and for completely different reasons.

 

[Sight Unseen]

If they start making good games again that aren't ripping you off at every turn with monetization schemes, then I'll start buying their good games again. Simple as that.

 

[Mikeyfell]

snip

Well, I actually liked about 70% of Dragon Age 2 and never played The Old Republic, so for me it was only Mass Effect 3 that turned me off of Bioware forever.

But everyone likes it a lot, and the more I see positive comments about Mass Effect 3 the crazier I think I'm going.

Can you tell me what Mass Effect 3 did right? Like anything it did that was good, Because I've played it through 6 times now and have found maybe 3 minutes of "acceptable" or "good" things in this 50 hour game.

What did you like about it? Is there something specific? Because I've driven my self mad trying to think of any reason someone who enjoyed the first 2 games would like the third one.

I am being sincere here, I'd really like to know what people liked about it.

 

[shrekfan246]

Cannot speak for others, but I don't "hate" Bioware.
I simply will not buy their games because they are owned by EA.

Why?
In brief, it's because I find EA to be a dangerous force in the industry who continuously wants to force practices that I don't agree with (and make them industry-standard), and thus harmful to my hobby. Disagree if you wish, but most of my experiences with EA have largely been in the red.

Therefore, buying their games simply means supporting the source of the problem, and that's idiocy.

Well, I take issue with the rhetoric you use, but I don't disagree with you. If people don't want to support EA, then that's fine. As I said, I don't like EA's business practices. I often find myself in quite the quandary because I can't decide whether I want to not encourage EA's practices or play the game that has my interest. The hatred for EA seems to spill over into hating the developers they own based purely on the fact that they're owned by EA, though, which I think is a bit ridiculous. Think of hating The Simpsons because of something Rupert Murdoch did. It wouldn't make any sense, would it?

It's not terribly weird. Just a different part of the demographic.
Plus, people change. I used to care an awful lot more about Nintendo and Sony than I do now, and for completely different reasons.

I suppose that's true.

 

[Eremiel]

My problem doesn't lie with the games Bioware have made. ME3 was good, excepting the ending.

My problem lies with them thinking that they are completely infallible.
Look at how they initially reacted to the outcry over said ME3 endings. They insisted stubbornly that people just didn't 'get' their amazing artistic visions and that the outcries were those of 'spoiled and entitled' gamers. Never for a single second did they stop to consider that maybe, just maybe.. the endings actually deserved the critique. Same thing for SW:ToR. All criticisms were met with complete dismissal.

Their sheer arrogance and the way they act is what has killed them in my eyes.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

No, they have lowered whatever quality they once had and frankly I can't take tat BS anymore. Let them make shooters like everyone else far all I care........

 

[mxfox408]

It would seem bioware is headed in the direction of the former #1 RPG developer SquareEnix is at, swirling of the toilet bowl. The minute you make mistakes then insult your fanbase using term artistic Integrity, then not admitting you messed up, its in a place we hate to see video game developer. We already have to deal with it enough on a day to day bases with corporations, we hate to see it tucking over our entertainment. Unfortunately that's where bioware is headed.

 

[shrekfan246]

snip

Well, I actually liked about 70% of Dragon Age 2 and never played The Old Republic, so for me it was only Mass Effect 3 that turned me off of Bioware forever.

But everyone likes it a lot, and the more I see positive comments about Mass Effect 3 the crazier I think I'm going.

Can you tell me what Mass Effect 3 did right? Like anything it did that was good, Because I've played it through 6 times now and have found maybe 3 minutes of "acceptable" or "good" things in this 50 hour game.

What did you like about it? Is there something specific? Because I've driven my self mad trying to think of any reason someone who enjoyed the first 2 games would like the third one.

I am being sincere here, I'd really like to know what people liked about it.

Well, my enjoyment of the game is going to be purely based on my subjective opinion, so I believe anything I say in its favor would be able to easily be refuted by you.

Besides, if you don't think it did anything right, why did you put yourself through it six times? Sounds like you certainly have driven yourself mad. But fine, I'll tell you what I liked about it that you probably won't agree with.

I liked how much smoother the controls were. The combat felt much faster paced, it felt more urgent and visceral than the previous two games. The first Mass Effect becomes frustrating very quickly on higher difficulties and the cool-downs for biotic/engineer abilities were fairly ridiculous for pitched gunfights. I had more fun with the game-play of Mass Effect 2 than the first, and I felt that between the newly-introduced weight mechanic that altered ability cool-downs and the improved in-combat movement opened up the game when compared to 2. There was more weapon variety, as well.

While I disliked the new dialogue system and how it pigeon-holed you into being Paragon or Renegade to get the best options, I felt that the writing was still solid. While I disliked how squad-mates had less to say between missions (there were many visits to Tali/Liara/Garrus that ended with me just saying "I should go"), I liked how squad-mates would move about and banter with each other while on the Normandy. I liked the growth return characters like Jack and Grunt showed in their small cameos, I absolutely loved Mordin's quest-line, and I liked the constant call-backs to things that I had done in the previous two games.

I liked the soundtrack. That might seem like a cop-out, but the composition team only had one of the same members from the previous two games, and I think they still did a stellar job.

To me, any issues that it did have weren't enough to outweigh how much fun I had. That's about as simply as I can put it.

 

[The Forces of Chaos]

snip

Well, I actually liked about 70% of Dragon Age 2 and never played The Old Republic, so for me it was only Mass Effect 3 that turned me off of Bioware forever.

But everyone likes it a lot, and the more I see positive comments about Mass Effect 3 the crazier I think I'm going.

Can you tell me what Mass Effect 3 did right? Like anything it did that was good, Because I've played it through 6 times now and have found maybe 3 minutes of "acceptable" or "good" things in this 50 hour game.

What did you like about it? Is there something specific? Because I've driven my self mad trying to think of any reason someone who enjoyed the first 2 games would like the third one.

I am being sincere here, I'd really like to know what people liked about it.

Don't worry Mikeyfell. Your not alone in thinking that ME 3 did only a few things right (For me, only the combat (I liked the more mobile feel to sheparad) and the tuchanka plot was of interest to me). I think people just want the hate to drop down, but so many things were broken in ME3 it's not funny.

As for myself, I feel that bioware/EA wants to "broaden its player base" by appealing to Cod/FPS fans, by doing this they have alienated some of their traditional playerbase. I really have lost interest in both the ME and DA series. It seems such a waste in the direction they have gone down.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Well, I take issue with the rhetoric you use, but I don't disagree with you. If people don't want to support EA, then that's fine. As I said, I don't like EA's business practices. I often find myself in quite the quandary because I can't decide whether I want to not encourage EA's practices or play the game that has my interest.

I find that the answer to that depends on what you value more: Short-term gain or long-term gain. A sort of a test of personality.

Most gamers don't really care about the long-term. They take what is offered at face value, and unless they're heavily invested in their hobby (as I am; I've been gaming for about 25 years now) that is probably the most I can expect.

Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but for the purposes of this topic, that's what I offer.

The hatred for EA seems to spill over into hating the developers they own based purely on the fact that they're owned by EA, though, which...

That is true, I have seen that problem cropping up a lot lately on these forums especially, but I don't hate Bioware, just as I didn't hate Westwood.

Most of the problems that crop up from EA's acquisitions stem from time-mismanagement. (not always, there are cases where the team was just incompetent)
"You can have it done Fast, Cheaply, or Competently. Pick two."
EA assumes that they can have all three, with a huge emphasis on Fast.

I think is a bit ridiculous. Think of hating The Simpsons because of something Rupert Murdoch did. It wouldn't make any sense, would it?

The sad truth of the matter is that "bad apples" are capable of supporting great works.
It's something we have to rationalize, and it's why I take objection to those who claim that it's purely a matter of "If it's a good game, support it. If it's bad, don't support it, and the market will work itself out."

Why? Because good games can come saddled with problems not directly related to content. My biggest problem with Diablo 3 for example has entirely to do with distribution and access to the content; not the quality of the content itself.

By buying Diablo 3 I may encourage Blizzard to create more content like it and that would be fine assuming I liked that content, but it also means that I would be supporting a system that actively cripples my ability to enjoy said content (I have lousy internet, and lousy choices for service).

As for my own rationalization: When a company repeatedly and continuously attempts to force such baggage onto the consumer for no reason other than "higher profits", I don't find much of a rational reason to support that.

Conversely: If such a company wants to change and move away from such practices, then I would happily support them. However, EA has not done this.

By economics, it's their job to make offers and my job to accept or reject the offers based on their merits. If a company insists on forcing the matter despite numerous protests, then I can find no rational alternative than to stop doing business with them.

Long term vs short term, again.

In EA's case, it's a combination of that and their historically appalling business ethics.
They have been proven, in court, of abusing their employees, violating labor laws, and most recently, of engaging in deliberate monopolistic practices.
I see that as long-term abuse, and signs of a company that doesn't want to chance, because it works for them.

 

[Rack]

Most gamers can only speak at 11, but even so forgiving Bioware makes no sense. They've done 4 disappointingly weak games on the trot now, 4 disappointingly weak games that received at least 80% on metacritic. There's no reason to buy another Bioware game at the moment, and they have to give us one. Either they visibly restructure the company or they take the time and care to make something really good again, even though that will directly go against the wishes of senior management. Make a game that deserves those high scores and then it will make sense to forgive them, but not before.

 

[Weaver]

I'll forgive them when they start making games again instead of DLC platforms.

 

[SnakeoilSage]

I didn't mind Dragon Age 2, don't care about Old Republic and never played Mass Effect 3.

They need to get back to decent stories. I don't care if the gameplay is like Resident Evil 1.

 

[shrekfan246]

I find that the answer to that depends on what you value more: Short-term gain or long-term gain. A sort of a test of personality.

Most gamers don't really care about the long-term. They take what is offered at face value, and unless they're heavily invested in their hobby (as I am; I've been gaming for about 25 years now) that is probably the most I can expect.

Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but for the purposes of this topic, that's what I offer.

That seems to strike pretty close to home for what I've seen. There are a lot of people who like to complain about things like DRM, but when push comes to shove they don't actually do anything about it. I think a fair amount of it is probably a mentality of "Oh, I'm only one person, what impact would it have if I bought the game or not?" too though.

That is true, I have seen that problem cropping up a lot lately on these forums especially, but I don't hate Bioware, just as I didn't hate Westwood.

Most of the problems that crop up from EA's acquisitions stem from time-mismanagement. (not always, there are cases where the team was just incompetent)
"You can have it done Fast, Cheaply, or Competently. Pick two."
EA assumes that they can have all three, with a huge emphasis on Fast.

This is something I can agree with entirely.

The sad truth of the matter is that "bad apples" are capable of supporting great works.
It's something we have to rationalize, and it's why I take objection to those who claim that it's purely a matter of "If it's a good game, support it. If it's bad, don't support it, and the market will work itself out."

Why? Because good games can come saddled with problems not directly related to content. My biggest problem with Diablo 3 for example has entirely to do with distribution and access to the content; not the quality of the content itself.

By buying Diablo 3 I may encourage Blizzard to create more content like it and that would be fine assuming I liked that content, but it also means that I would be supporting a system that actively cripples my ability to enjoy said content (I have lousy internet, and lousy choices for service).

As for my own rationalization: When a company repeatedly and continuously attempts to force such baggage onto the consumer for no reason other than "higher profits", I don't find much of a rational reason to support that.

Conversely: If such a company wants to change and move away from such practices, then I would happily support them. However, EA has not done this.

By economics, it's their job to make offers and my job to accept or reject the offers based on their merits. If a company insists on forcing the matter despite numerous protests, then I can find no rational alternative than to stop doing business with them.

Long term vs short term, again.

In EA's case, it's a combination of that and their historically appalling business ethics.
They have been proven, in court, of abusing their employees, violating labor laws, and most recently, of engaging in deliberate monopolistic practices.
I see that as long-term abuse, and signs of a company that doesn't want to chance, because it works for them.

Again, something I can agree with. I mean, I'm not really sure what else to say on the matter. The last EA game I bought was Mass Effect 3, before that it was Crysis 2 and before that I can't even remember what the last game I bought had an EA stamp on it. Considering the number of games they put out per year, I'd say I'm hardly making a dent in their business model either way.

But the terrible DRM is one reason I've never purchased any of the Assassin's Creed games (or other Ubisoft titles that use the thing). Those god-awful "Your mom will hate it" commercials did nothing to interest me in Dead Space 2. Capcom's system of releasing incremental updates in physical form six months after the original release has made me disinterested in their fighting games. Konami's insanely terrible handling of the Silent Hill HD remake prevented me from buying that.

I don't know if I could write off every game that a publisher releases just because of their practices, but their practices have certainly prevented me from buying certain games before. I think maybe I'm just not as entrenched in the gaming community as some other people are. I've been gaming my entire life, but it's only been the last two years or so that I've actually started following things like this website.

 

[Amaror]

Me 3 was still good, despite the ending. The ending fucked the story but i still really enjoyed the rest of the game and got my moneys worth.
DA 2 on the other hand was not enjoyable in the least. The combat was boring and repetitive, the graphics were way uglier than Origins, the enviroments, well i don't have to tell you about that, and the story was just bullshit, with every single character going insane in the end.
I am not saying i won't buy any bioware game ever again, but to be honest i cannot see me buying a game from them at least in the foreseeable future. Da 2 was shit and defenetly not it's money worth so if i buy da 3 it would have to be a masterpiece like origins and it would be a year or two later for 10 bucks.
But i just know that's not going to happen.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

I was never mad on Bioware, so I have nothing to forgive them for. And yeah, I'm 100% buying their next game.

 

[Agente L]

It's not only DA2, ME3 and SWTOR.

It's the way they deal with critics in their own forums. It's the way they arbitrarily banned people using baseless claims. It's how they release incomplete games and sell the missing parts as DLC. It's how they have on-disk DLC. It's how they alienate their own fanbase by saying things like "We want call of duty audience" and releasing the aberration DAII, when DA:O was advertised as a "returning to the root" and "spiritual sucessor of Baldur's Gate". It's how they handled ME3 ending shitstorm.

I REALLY enjoyed DA:O. ME1 and ME2. But it's ridiculous what bioware turned into the last 3 years or so.