What does the Confederate flag represent to you?
- Thread starter Baron Von Evil Satan
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I will say this as this would be my bias: Coming from the Dayton area in Ohio the only people I have seen proudly bear the confederate flag have also been incredibly racist and ignorant. So I stand by saying the war was about slavery but I will admit that my passion and intolerance for the group I just described (coincidentally that is my only intolerance, and I can hang out with these guys as long as they don't talk politics or race with me)Plurralbles said:
Side Note: Im white which may also be a bias
I'll agree with this. I see the Confederate Flag as a flag for the south and its culture, and it doesn't really connote racism to me. But then again, I'm not American so I may have some sort of bias or lack of knowledge.Baron Von Evil Satan said:
It represents traitors, oathbreakers, and the triumph of the desires of the affluent over the interests of the common man and shared humanity. Any other ideas are unsupported by the facts.
I believe it represents States Rights. Slavery was bad, but not as bad in the US as in other countries. Technology was making slavery inefficient, so it would have died out on its own.
What's worse, a few decades more of slavery (at the most), or a huge civil war which results in states losing so much power there's hardly a point to their governments?
What's worse, a few decades more of slavery (at the most), or a huge civil war which results in states losing so much power there's hardly a point to their governments?
Southern Heritage, not racism. It is all that is left of the old south which was far different from what it is today.
Edit: the people that say the flag is racist are the ones that dwell in the past and need to move on not the respectable southerners who fly the flag.
Edit: the people that say the flag is racist are the ones that dwell in the past and need to move on not the respectable southerners who fly the flag.
Yeah, it only represents a way of life propped up and sustained through slavery.Baron Von Evil Satan said:
Unless you count revisionist southern apologetics. Then it's a symbol of rebellion.
But that takes a lot of revisionism.
Perhaps you should say it doesn't just represent slavery, though it depends on how honest you want to be about the history of which you speak. Outright rejection is completely false. the notion that the Civil War wasn't about is as true as the notion that it was. Slavery was a key factor behind the scenes of the war, especially since it would have a serious economic, social, and legal impact.
Though honestly, I've never got why people bother to rationalise why it's okay to use a contested symbol. Just wear it.
In some context, the flag of a "dead" country.
Most of the time though, it's rednecks, racism and what I've heard referred to as "hick towns" in the American south.
Since I'm Swedish it's pretty much only portrayed in American movies and comedy shows around here though, and the American Civil War isn't covered in history class.
Most of the time though, it's rednecks, racism and what I've heard referred to as "hick towns" in the American south.
Since I'm Swedish it's pretty much only portrayed in American movies and comedy shows around here though, and the American Civil War isn't covered in history class.
1. Yes, slavery was the driving force of the southern economy. That's why the state governments got their collective shorts in a wad when it looked like slavery was on its way out.creager91 said:
2. Slavery had ceased to exist in the north by that time mostly because it wasn't economically viable there. If one reviewed primary source documents; letters, newspaper editorials, and the like, one would find that the absence of slavery did not mean the absence of racism in the north.
3. The vast majority of confederate soldiers had never owned slaves, they were far too expensive. So to say that they personally were fighting for slavery isn't true.
To say that the civil war was only about slavery is only about half right. If there hadn't been disagreement over whose authority it was to deal with slavery, there would not have been a war. take the case of Brazil; they abolished slavery even later than the US, but they did so without a civil war because there was no disagreement over the authority of the national government to abolish slavery.
In conclusion, the confederate flags (yes, there were more than one), doesn't represent racism per se any more than the US flag does, and if you look at the level of racism in each country then the US flag has much more simply because the CSA only existed for ~5 years.
That's completely 100% my opinion as well. It's almost like people didn't see Independence Day!Boundless Apathy said:
Oh for sure, but those identities are borrowed at best. I think it's one of the things that makes Britain so great is the melting pot of cultures and our fairly erratic history. It's all opinion thoughTechno Squidgy said:I think the refusal of the identification of British is the fear of the loss of the further identification as English, Scottish, Welsh, etc.
EDIT: Also I find it funny that it's considered a country made up of countries. Mad stuff
the civil war wasnt even about slavery hardly at all. it was primarily about restoring the union, its just the people who you see associated with it that give it a bad connotation, its not a racist symbol.
Southern heritage. As to the Confederacy itself, seeing all the "South was racist" posts (thus implying the North was not) is hilarious.
Now then, we all know that Lincoln was racist. This is fact. We know that Jefferson Davis (president of the Confederacy) was a slave holder himself. This is also fact. How many of you know how Jefferson treated his slaves? He taught them to read and write. He also let them judge each other when any of them broke the rules. He figured slavery would end soon in any case whether or not the South succeeded. So he wanted black people to integrate on equal footing with white people.
Another fun fact. Most slave holders were not plantation owners. Most were poor farmers and could only afford 1 or 2 slaves. And they would work in the fields with the slaves, eat the same food, live in the same standards.
Now then, we all know that Lincoln was racist. This is fact. We know that Jefferson Davis (president of the Confederacy) was a slave holder himself. This is also fact. How many of you know how Jefferson treated his slaves? He taught them to read and write. He also let them judge each other when any of them broke the rules. He figured slavery would end soon in any case whether or not the South succeeded. So he wanted black people to integrate on equal footing with white people.
Another fun fact. Most slave holders were not plantation owners. Most were poor farmers and could only afford 1 or 2 slaves. And they would work in the fields with the slaves, eat the same food, live in the same standards.
Well, I'll keep the offer in mind. You ever make it up to PA, let me know and I'll treat you to... something. cant drink for three years (least not legally).Aur0ra145 said:
And yeah, I know. I saw all that Texas hype with wanting to be your own country.
Unfortunately, PA doesnt have alot of awesome flags. But thats oka. We pride ourselves in just having a ton of awesome (and important) battles. There's atleast three battle sites in PA where the war for what is now the United States of America was fought and won.
<spoiler=Though our cities have some rather sensible flags>http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/u/us-pa~pb.gifhttp://images.wikia.com/icehockey/images/3/34/Pittsburgh_Flag.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Harrisburg_PA_city_flag.gif/300px-Harrisburg_PA_city_flag.gifhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Flag_of_Philadelphia%2C_Pennsylvania.svg
A nation ruled by a slave holding aristocracy who forced the lower classes to fight a war that they really had no reason to fight and dressed it all up as a war to protect their "culture" of sorts from a progressive government of liberals and intellectuals (from their time at least, I do understand that Lincoln was racist but at least he wanted to abolish slavery) who only wanted to abolish the enslavement of their fellow human beings and to unite their nation under one banner again.
Wow... that was a long sentence.
Wow... that was a long sentence.
To me the Confederate Battle Flag mainly represents the area in the U.S. commonly referred to as the "South". That area has a very distinct culture within the U.S. Being a bit history buff I will also associate it with the C.S.A.
Obviously alot of racist groups use it as "their" flag, but it's much the way that Mussolini's Fascist Italy liked to conjure up images of the Roman Empire or Nazi Germany evoking "Germanic" traditions. They are descendants of these things true, but their connection is not as close as they claim.
While slavery was part of the reason why the Civil War happened it was not the whole part. If you were to ask the average Southern during that time why the Southern states had seceded they probably would have answered in a similar manner: "Because the Northern States were trying to oppress them". The average Southern didn't have slaves, only the most wealthy could even afford to own them (the slave trade had ended much earlier and keeping a person alive and work-worthy out of your own pocket is expensive). Why would a poor farmer want to support something that had no impact on his life? Hell, there were even several Northern states that still had slavery at the time (Maryland and Missouri are two). The only reason why the war is so closely linked to the issue of slavery is due to Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, which only banned slavery in southern states. The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't some moral law being brought about, it was a clever piece of political maneuvering that helped to dissuade the C.S.A.'s potential allies (Britain and France) from joining due to the fact that by that time both had banned slavery within their motherland. I don't know what your education taught you, but the reason why slavery is so closely linked to Confederacy is the same reason why the Holocaust is linked with Nazi Germany; at the time the war wasn't being fought to oppose it. It's only later that these practices were used to make the victors seem all the more righteous.
Obviously alot of racist groups use it as "their" flag, but it's much the way that Mussolini's Fascist Italy liked to conjure up images of the Roman Empire or Nazi Germany evoking "Germanic" traditions. They are descendants of these things true, but their connection is not as close as they claim.
The Civil War wasn't driven by racism. It was driven by the argument on how powerful the individual state governments had in relation to the Federal government. There's a reason why it was the Confederate States of America as opposed to the Federal states of America. The Southern states wanted more independence from the Federal government and had for some time. There had been several resolutions saying that an individual state had the right to overturn a federal decision within it's borders. These were ultamitly used by the Southern states to "give" themselves the right to secede from the Union. Lincoln dissputed these claims and thus the Civil War took place. In fact it was Lincoln's strenghting of the Federal government that helped to create the U.S.A. we know today. Before then the title U.S.A. made sense because it was more of union of seperate states (not to be confused with their common American usage today) is the sense of "The State of Britin" or "The State of Russia". Originally the U.S. was supposed to be a confederacy (Hence the Articles of Confederation). The slow centralization of the government wasn't universally supported and eventually came to the front when the Southern States felt they'd had enough.creager91 said:
While slavery was part of the reason why the Civil War happened it was not the whole part. If you were to ask the average Southern during that time why the Southern states had seceded they probably would have answered in a similar manner: "Because the Northern States were trying to oppress them". The average Southern didn't have slaves, only the most wealthy could even afford to own them (the slave trade had ended much earlier and keeping a person alive and work-worthy out of your own pocket is expensive). Why would a poor farmer want to support something that had no impact on his life? Hell, there were even several Northern states that still had slavery at the time (Maryland and Missouri are two). The only reason why the war is so closely linked to the issue of slavery is due to Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, which only banned slavery in southern states. The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't some moral law being brought about, it was a clever piece of political maneuvering that helped to dissuade the C.S.A.'s potential allies (Britain and France) from joining due to the fact that by that time both had banned slavery within their motherland. I don't know what your education taught you, but the reason why slavery is so closely linked to Confederacy is the same reason why the Holocaust is linked with Nazi Germany; at the time the war wasn't being fought to oppose it. It's only later that these practices were used to make the victors seem all the more righteous.