What happened to the Escapist?

[Objectable]

I blame the Authority. Ever since they prevented Daniel Bryan from regaining the title, the Escapist has been going downhill!

 

[MerlinCross]

Did this basically turn into "Did the site go down hill before or AFTER Gamergate" thread?

I actually can't answer that. I was never that much of a forum goer before the event so I'm unsure how the community thought things were being run. That and I only came to the site for like 4 things and left after seeing them so I'm unaware of how the rest of the content has been dealt with.

Sadly I did see a lot of bannings and people just leaving the site thanks to said event(for or against). So there probably is some weight to the 'site went downhill after' argument. We just have to see how this plays out because I'd hate to see the site go under.

To show that it's not "remaining to be the most open" when the extremely toxic group they're "open" to pretty much have their balls in a vice grip.

"Made their bed" is a far more apt description of the situation. They decided that Gamergate would be the best thing for their image, despite the massive warning signs, and Gamergate will repay that by targeting their revenue if they come to their senses.

....., I'd like to say I have a rebuttal but I don't. Gamergate is mainly a blob of different factions trying to work towards a goal so any number of people/groups could want revenge if the Escapist shuts down discussion. Others could just wipe their hands of it and move on while others could just thank them for putting up with it for so long. I myself would be in that last camp(least you guys talk back, not scream) but I have no idea the actual response and reaction if the Escapist actually does that.

And that's not even counting someone else doing it for lols(It's the internet, doing it for the lols happens).

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

Hold it, Tito's gone? Fuck, this site really has gone to shit, hasn't it? Seriously, losing Jim, Bob (not much of a fan of his, especially after ME3 and GG, but he did do the occasional killer Big Picture), and Tito within a span of only a couple months is insane. All that's really left now that I give a crap about is ZP, EP, and Critical Miss. That probably explains why I rarely find reason to come here much anymore, especially after all these damn controversies from the past 2 years tore these forums and the community apart (yes, peaking at GG). I miss when the most irritating thing people would do is derail threads with ponies. T-T

People say the mods here are harsh. I say they're the most generous, soft moderators with the most lenient rules on the net.

S-soft?

I was going for f-fluffy. Q^Q

Wait the flying fucking minute, when the hell did you become a mod again? O_O

At least I have another reason to come here then, I suppose. Another friendly face and all (and boy is that needed). Seriously, nice to see the Spidermod back in action. :3

 

[Elberik]

Its the Early-year lull in video games. We havent got a good distraction yet so people are getting broody. Everything isnt 100% sunshine & rainbows all the time,

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

Presumably Gamergate. The Escapist made their bed when they decided that a group that's not allowed on other websites for being toxic as fuck would be the best thing for their image.

Weirdly, lots of content creators have left. Probably a coincidence.

You call it "making their bed" with a group. I call it remaining to be the most open gaming forums after the GG bomb blew up. Comeplete censorship of it made the other sites look real cowardly. Moderating it by the rules like anything else gave The Escapist a lot of props late last year.

If The Escapists bans Gamergate now, do you think Gamergate will go after their advertisers?

Yes. But my question is, what's the point of your hypothetical?

To show that it's not "remaining to be the most open" when the extremely toxic group they're "open" to pretty much have their balls in a vice grip.

"Made their bed" is a far more apt description of the situation. They decided that Gamergate would be the best thing for their image, despite the massive warning signs, and Gamergate will repay that by targeting their revenue if they come to their senses.

The reason I, along with many others, became a part of the movement that would eventually become GG (which I am NOT a part of now and refuse to be again) is because of the censorship campaign against those who either criticised Quinn or the journalists. Banning uncivil or hostile behavior in discussions on a controversial topic is one thing, but openly banning all discussion on said topic was never and still isn't the morally right thing to do, and I say this as someone who is absolutely fed up with both sides of GG and just wants the shitstorm to end. You moderate such discussions and set ground rules for them - you don't forbid them altogether (speaking of which, the mods deserve crazy amounts of respect for handling it as well as they did).

Simply put, one should not forbid another to speak just because the former believes the latter to be utterly wrong, which is exactly what the other sites did (assuming the best case scenario - that they weren't just trying to cover their friends' / their own asses by making a strawman of their critics). At least in Greg Tito's case, he really didn't do it for his or the site's image but because he believed silencing people was wrong even if he was staunchly against their viewpoints, as the GameJournoPros thing had proven. It's why he remains one of the 2 primary people in this shitstorm that I strongly respect.

Captcha: "can't have nice things" I think that's something we're all feeling right now, Captcha.

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

Its the Early-year lull in video games. We havent got a good distraction yet so people are getting broody. Everything isnt 100% sunshine & rainbows all the time,

No offense, but this shit has been going since at least GG began in August and possible much longer than that if you want to try to trace some of this tension back further (ME3 or Extra Credits, anyone?). I don't think time of the year has anything to do with it, imho.

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

Oh how fun so many blaming it in the monstrous boogeyman of Gamergate and how "Toxic" it all is.

It seems quite simple.

- After some of the gamergate content and the controversy both ways the management Defy Media put a blanket ban on actual gamergate related content. Jim left possibly after being told he couldn't talk about it (but he still hasn't so who really can say). Bob has been less than silent on social media and has been making a bit of a rectum of himself there but in his more professional content producing capacity he was at least providing something constructive to the debate by trying to explain actions on both sides.

- Sites poisoning the water by removing the politics free space that was gaming. Other sites by interjecting a lot of politics into gaming and the reaction to this in the form of gamergate hit all sites as gaming was no longer seen as a safe non political non controversial area. Some sites of course got hit harder than others and Gawker actively attacking advertisers hasn't helped much.

- Online revenue dropping. I mean Linkara of TGWTG has a Patreon now. The availability of certain un-nameable things has caused ad revenue to drop in most places

If people had been paying attention Archon pointed out this could be happening last year and that the escapist was going to be cutting people to survive. Personally I had no real issue with Movie Bobs content for the most part it was quite good (Him on Twitter seems like a far different person) the only thing I've ever had issue with was his big picture on genetic engineering.

Polygon are actively signing their death warrant at present by telling people in no uncertain terms to fuck off and they "Aren't the right kind of gamers to be their readership". It looks like more developers are looking at Polygon and refusing things I mean Ubisoft refused to send a review copy of Farcry 4 and instead sent some half finished developer version then didn't bother sending the working version.

Anyone who thinks this decline is at the feet of Gamergate is sorely mistaken as Lisa Foiles stopping was kind of the first indicator something was happening. I think we might see some new pick ups at some point once things have stabilised a bit but at present it's weathering the storm that's going on.

Also is all this salt really healthy that a site refused help enable false DMCA claims ad other such nonsense?

I mean there's still the possibility of Big Man Tyrone's gaming news show coming (I really hope it does make it)

To show that it's not "remaining to be the most open" when the extremely toxic group they're "open" to pretty much have their balls in a vice grip.

"Made their bed" is a far more apt description of the situation. They decided that Gamergate would be the best thing for their image, despite the massive warning signs, and Gamergate will repay that by targeting their revenue if they come to their senses.

So let me get this right. You're angry because the Escapist chose to allow different opinions to be expressed and didn't instantly burn the earth and salt to get rid of people you dislike because they disagree with you ?

Yes there have been arguments that have got out of hand (when you talk religion, politics or sport it can and often will happen). However the escapist is at least trying to allow everyone to remain and to have these discussions.

I think you are right that GG isn't the sole cause of what's going on lately and might not even be the primary cause in at least the cases of the staff (the TGWTG mini-exodus going on right now lends credence to the idea of ad-revenue based business models falling apart). I would certainly list it as a factor though at least on a community level, even if not the primary one. General internet forums in particular, especially GG-centerpieces like the Escapist, now have massive underlying tensions everywhere that's pretty much only being kept in check by exhaustion. People have become more reluctant to talk about whatever their personal issues are in this clusterfuck of a controversy (even if it's "I don't care, quit bugging me already") and when they do their fatigue at dealing with this for months on end causes them to be much more rash and aggressive than intended. Basically, on at least a community level, GG is a major factor in driving people away as the majority of people are getting too tired to argue it anymore. However, with the discussions left unfinished, the tensions will likely continue to remain and will steadily build up underneath until it explodes in another GG-sized controversy (or bigger) down the line.

That's my take, anyways.

 

[Adultratedhydra]

not just GamerGate but the internet time and time again has proven it ISN'T a safe space...there is rampant misogyny and everything else and to say otherwise is burying ones head in the sand

Myself and others have to work pretty hard to find anything intentionally "Misogynistic" online. Very specific places that need to be gone to and even then the intentional malice is reserved for an even more select spot.

on the other side of the coin you need to go to very specific places to find what GG apparently hates so much in sarkeesian, wu, quinn. GG has to work very hard to see their shit.

Neither side wether they be "SJW" or "Pro-GG" has any moral highground anymore anyway. Both are as bad as eachother and constantly make proof enough that both "Sides" (BUT THAR NO BE SIDES, wrong, theres a thing and an opposition. this "NO THERES JUST EVERYONE ELSE" shit doesnt fly.) need to just shut up and go back to circlejerking themselves.

TLDR
GG is stupid with their cries of "ETHICS" but their laser focus on Social Justice and E-Celebs but so are these claims of "RAMPANT MISOGYNY EVEN IF YOU DONT KNOW YOU'RE ACTUALLY PASSIVELY A MISOGYNIST SHITLORD." from the other side of this coin.

 

[Vault101]

Myself and others have to work pretty hard to find anything intentionally "Misogynistic" online. Very specific places that need to be gone to and even then the intentional malice is reserved for an even more select spot.

1. it doesn't have to be intentional
2. I find that VERY hard to belive

[quote/]Neither side wether they be "SJW" or "Pro-GG" has any moral highground anymore anyway. Both are as bad as eachother and constantly make proof enough that both "Sides" (BUT THAR NO BE SIDES, wrong, theres a thing and an opposition. this "NO THERES JUST EVERYONE ELSE" shit doesnt fly.) need to just shut up and go back to circlejerking themselves.
[/quote]
I don't subscribe to the idea every disagreement has an equal opposite and a third ooptionwhere one can "dismiss both sides" as pretenf their above it all

 

[Adultratedhydra]

1. it doesn't have to be intentional

You dont speak for me or the other billions of people on this earth and you dont get to declare anyone anything. to think otherwise is laughable.

I don't subscribe to the idea every disagreement has an equal opposite and a third ooptionwhere one can "dismiss both sides" as pretenf their above it all.

Again, you dont have to subscribe to the idea just as i dont have to tell you that you have to dismiss it. Difference of opinion. Good for you that you are involved in something you believe in. Me? I dont care about a petty internet slapfight and choose to just think both sides are whining children.

 

[likalaruku]

Hmmm.... I initially came for Zero Punctuation, after several name-drops from someone on TGWTG.

I enjoyed Unskipable, Unforgotten Realms, Checkpoint, Feed Dump, Shamus Plays (especially the LOTRO one), Doraleous & Associates, & Jimquisition.

I found The Escapist Forum to be the most polite & on topic forum of all times. That hasn't changed at all.

I liked that, up until recently, the site was focused entirely on video games, & whenever something non-game related poppped up, I'd chime in "what does this have to do with video games?"

But like all good places, the core entertainment leaves. Escapist is no longer games-only & LLR left, Unforgotten Realms website shut down, PATV is gone, Channel Awesoem & Reviewtopia have become shadows of their former glory with their entertainment having almost entirely parted ways to different sites, JewWario is dead, Allison Pregler doesn't do OLP anymore, Homestar Runner only updates a few times a year if we're lucky, Jontron/AVGN/Spoony/LittleKuriboh have drastically reduced their yearly output of videos, Maximum PC stopped doing Byte Rights & Watch Dog, Ashens doesn't review Popstations anymore....

 

[Vault101]

You dont speak for me or the other billions of people on this earth and you dont get to declare anyone anything. to think otherwise is laughable.
.

oookay then...

if you accidentally hit me in the face with a stick, you'd probably apologize, most people would [i/]because they understand immedetly I could be in pain,[/i]and while it was unintentional they understand it was a slight upon me... and I'd probably be like "thats cool, mabye be careful with your stick next time".again people immediately understand the pain part...its tangible

but how people react to something that isn't as "tangible" as pain:

[quote/]"Ow that hurt!"
"no it didn't"
"uhhh...yes it does"
"no it doesn't , it only hurts if I meant to hit you, I didn't mean to"
"yeah but...you can see the bruise starting to show"
"maybe it hurts because you [i/]expected[/i] it to hurt and you clealry have a problem with sticks..why do you hate sticks?"
"I don't hate sticks! its just yours hit me in the face"
"IT DIDN'T BECAUSE IT WAS UNINTENTIONAL"
"I know that!"
"then why are you are you freaking out over it?? what the fuck is your problem?"
"because my face hurts!!"
"I don't believe you! youre just overly sensitive!"
"...mabye in future carry your stick closer to your body, so you wont hit people"
"you DARE suggest I change my behaviour? I DON'T HIT PEOPLE WITH SITCKS!
"you just did"
"No I didn't! stick hitters are tattooed thugs who run around after midnight! do I look like a goddamn stick hitter?"
"no but you did hit me in the face with a stick"
"NO I DIDN'T!!!"[/quote]

my face hurts/I found that offensive <- people dissmiss the very idea that somone could be legitimatly offended by what they say [i/]or[/i] things in general, because we've been told that those bad people...the racists the sexists the homophbobes are [i/]other people[/i] characters with cartoonish veiw points (like the KKK or ultra conservative christians) and that nothing WE say (normal people) could in anyway cause offense

or for a more grounded example

most things are rarely if EVER intentional or at least you wont have people openly saying "I'm sexist" but that doesn't mean what they saying isn't sexist/whatever other ism there is

[b/]It's cool that your gay because youre not a butch dyke/a fag[/b] <-person doesn't think they're being homophobic cause they [i/]"are cool with gay people as long as they conform to my idea of gender norms"[/i] when in fact they expressed said homophobic sentiments (with a little mysogany thrown in)

[b/]you're really pretty and articulate for a black girl[/b] <-said person thinks they are paying her a compliment, when in fact they are drawing upon A.) beauty norms centered around white women as the standards and B.) stereotype that Black woman are uneducated and/or dumb

[b/]hey sweetie! why don't you go fetch me that paper on the desk?[/b] <-they think they're saying something nice when in fact its condescending, especially in a professional environment where said woman probably doesn't want to be spoken to like that

ALL of those examples , the people were genuine, and didn't mean to offend...and ALL of them were Homophic/racist/sexist to varying degrees the fact that they were unintentional [i/]does not change anything[/i] for the person on the receiving end or for anyone who seems them


we seem to have a lot of people who reeeeeaaaly don't want to be called and/or implied to be [whatever ism] and yet they refuse to even consider whether or not the things they do/say are whatever-ist

 

[Adultratedhydra]

Snip

I dont hit people in the face with sticks and i'd apologise if i did by accident.

But if Nazi's and the rest of europe hit people with sticks then both hit people with sticks, neither side has the right to hit people with sticks no matter how much they defend their right to both sides are wrong.

 

[Vault101]

.
I dont hit people in the face with sticks and i'd apologise if i did by accident.

But if Nazi's and the rest of europe hit people with sticks then both hit people with sticks, neither side has the right to hit people with sticks no matter how much they defend their right to both sides are wrong.

you might not...but my point was it pays to think about the things we say/do (and the things we watch/read/play) instead of going on the defensive every single time (ie: gamergate)

 

[Adultratedhydra]

.
I dont hit people in the face with sticks and i'd apologise if i did by accident.

But if Nazi's and the rest of europe hit people with sticks then both hit people with sticks, neither side has the right to hit people with sticks no matter how much they defend their right to both sides are wrong.

you might not...but my point was it pays to think about the things we say/do (and the things we watch/read/play) instead of going on the defensive every single time (ie: gamergate)

Again, GG is stupid but so is the other side. People are crying Soggy knee's and Racism where there is none in the same way GG is crying collusion and rampant orgies.

Both sides fail to realise they are the same thing using the same tactics just under a different flag and both sides always jump straight to the defensive. And the figureheads of both sides all need to be silent and let the grown ups talk. The fear tactics that the figureheads of them use are deplorable no matter what side you identify with.

I mean explain how a GGer doxxing someone is terrible but someone from the other side doxxing someone isnt? Its a scumbag move no matter who you are.

On the other side the Grave dancing over bob is uncalled for honestly. I didnt like bobs content so you know what i did? -Ignored it.-

 

[Casual Shinji]

most things are rarely if EVER intentional or at least you wont have people openly saying "I'm sexist" but that doesn't mean what they saying isn't sexist/whatever other ism there is

[b/]It's cool that your gay because youre not a butch dyke/a fag[/b] <-person doesn't think they're being homophobic cause they [i/]"are cool with gay people as long as they conform to my idea of gender norms"[/i] when in fact they expressed said homophobic sentiments (with a little mysogany thrown in)

[b/]you're really pretty and articulate for a black girl[/b] <-said person thinks they are paying her a compliment, when in fact they are drawing upon A.) beauty norms centered around white women as the standards and B.) stereotype that Black woman are uneducated and/or dumb

[b/]hey sweetie! why don't you go fetch me that paper on the desk?[/b] <-they think they're saying something nice when in fact its condescending, especially in a professional environment where said woman probably doesn't want to be spoken to like that.

Those sound more like lines from the token passive agressive jerk character from any number of modern comedies (usually played by David Koechner), rather than someone trying to not sound intentionally prejudice.

Sure, there's plenty of people out there who talk like that, but this isn't what I would call the best examples of unintentional sexism/racism, because it's pretty much dripping with it.

 

[Adultratedhydra]

Those sound more like lines from the token passive agressive jerk character from any number of modern comedies (usually played by David Koechner), rather than someone trying to not sound intentionally prejudice.

Sure, there's plenty of people out there who talk like that, but this isn't what I would call the best examples of unintentional sexism/racism, because it's pretty much dripping with it.

Nah mate world is black and white. You're a racist misogynist shitlord or you're Not.

(That was sarcasm and you're right. Outside of the token Asshole in assorted media I've never heard someone speak like that and be serious.)

 

[Adultratedhydra]

Now anyone who is moderate and able to just laugh at or ignore content they find questionable suffers; why does everything become so binary on the internet?

Nah mate there is no moderate. didnt you get the memo? the world is black and white and you are passively a bigot, it's ok that you didnt know though, I'm here to inform you of that.

 

[Vault101]

Those sound more like lines from the token passive agressive jerk character from any number of modern comedies (usually played by David Koechner), rather than someone trying to not sound intentionally prejudice.

Sure, there's plenty of people out there who talk like that, but this isn't what I would call the best examples of unintentional sexism/racism, because it's pretty much dripping with it.

true...but when you're trying to explain a concept its often better to use simple/obvious examples

plus its the first stuff that came to my head

plus I didn't want to get into an argument over weather or not the examples used were racist/sexist because that would have been beside the point

Again, GG is stupid but so is the other side. People are crying Soggy knee's and Racism where there is none in the same way GG is crying collusion and rampant orgies.

given the context I don't think it is the same, if you interpret a work as racist then thats a perfectly valid criticism...[b/]weather or not it holds up to scrutiny[/b] is another thing altogether and obviously comes with a heavy does of subjectivity...but thats just the nature of these discussions


[quote/]Both sides fail to realise they are the same thing using the same tactics just under a different flag and both sides always jump straight to the defensive. And the figureheads of both sides all need to be silent and let the grown ups talk. The fear tactics that the figureheads of them use are deplorable no matter what side you identify with.
.-[/quote]
there is such a thing as the golden median fallacey

and no Doxxing generally isn't ok