What if We Leveled Backwards?!

[FinalHeart95]

So side-quests would make the character weaker and thus make the end-game more difficult. You are effectively punishing someone for exploring the game.
Sorry, I fail to see how this would work.

 

[Serge A. Storms]

The biggest problem with that idea that I can see is that there really are a whole hell of a lot of people that play a game for hours and hours just because they want to get their stats up and get shiny weapons. I wouldn't define that as "fun" and everything Yahtzee's ever said about RPGs would leave me to believe that he wouldn't consider that "fun," either, but it's what a lot of people like to do.

 

[DarkPanda XIII]

Honestly? I can see this working for a few game, though not all. But one idea that shot right through my head...I know it would fall on deaf ears and such cause of the wave of comments and such, but here goes.

"You are a godlike being that has all of his powers, is stronger than Atlas than any given day, and can make a typhoon with just a sneeze. Upon his throne of gold, a small man in a black cloak appears, telling the 'God' of his achievements and greatness....but..there is one thing that even he can't control..

A Sword, a Dark sword that even the greatest heroes have died around it. Being the extreme being that he is, he would mock the little man in black, and thus take the sword for his own. Just as he conquers the dungeon that held the sword, word comes around that the 'gods' ancient enemies are attacking....something he could use his sword upon.

As time rolls on, however, it becomes apparent that the sword is draining him of his powers, and life, and once he figures it out, he us unable to let the sword go, either with the Golem' reaction of 'my precious', or not-believing it to be true of this wonderful sword..or the sword has latched onto him physically. By the end, he is soon mortal, and the little man in black happens to be the ruler of the invading army, or the spirit of the sword itself, and the Godlike-being, now human must conquer it before he falls, like the heroes before him.

So yeah, it would be a bit more like a 1player thing, 'but' it could be a multiplayer if you have more than one weapon and such.

 

[Dfskelleton]

Yahtzee, please. Get together with some bearable developer and make a game. You obviously have the talent to think of awesome things. This is a great idea, I'm surprised nobody has taken this into consideration.

 

[chif-ii]

...F***in genius!

Another side effect of backwards leveling in an MMO is that it may encourage older players to be less dickish. Maybe.

 

[Exubernt]

What about group play? It's hard to get an end game party with a healer with one healing spell, and only particular abilities for things like crowd control. Moves that you don't necessarily use for 'solo' play you would naturally drop, but those could be useful for group play-style.

I don't want to dip into things like PVP

but what about Re spec? In games where you have ability points, respec ing makes sense, because you want to dub your experience into something effective for you. It would not make sense that you "trainer" would have the ability to grant you all your powers, then you get to re chose what you loose. I don't want to get to level 1 then have to re roll upon finding out that my abilities mean nothing in endgame.

It's a great idea, but the basic template of which most MMO's operate, it would defiantly have bugs.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

I'd love this idea as a single player game (not really a big MMO fan), especially if it was more action oriented so that you could make up for lost abilities with skill more effectively.

 

[Zaik]

I like it. Seems like the next logical step from Half-Minute Hero.

If you had posed the simple idea of "What if your level reset each time you beat a boss?" to random people before that it would have gotten a resounding "lolno" response.

Then half minute hero happened, and it was great. Simple, but it worked well.

It may need a sense of progression still though, like half minute hero had with keeping your equipment while losing your level. Perhaps you start as a young hero who initially is a blah blah stereotypical RPG superhero, however you continue to play as him as he creeps into old age and has to find ways to compensate for his failing health. Forbidden Magic, Alchemical "suppliments", stealing ancient artifacts, contracts with demons, etc.

Alone, it seems like a bad idea. But if you can put it in the right setting, it could be really fun.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

he was right in saying players would not want to play this game if they only level down.

but in a short game, probably action, it may work wonders.

the MAIN problem i see is that this is TOO MUCH outside the box for publishers to take to, they would just prefer to fund fifa 78 than this kind of game.

 

[Anonymous Overlord]

I don't think this idea would do anything for RPG's except piss people off to the point of not playing. Where i see this idea as a potential gold mine is the stealth/action game genre. If this idea was directly applied to something like Arkham Asylum. If your maximum health started at 100% and went down by 10% after each major boss fight, and you lost tools (or had them destroyed in exciting ways) this be one way of ramping difficulty consistently through the game as levels progressed. Sure you could wipe the floor with three of jokers cronies at the start but with a broken arm and two shattered ribs the task is much more daunting.

 

[zehydra]

This would be a great game, but it would only work in Single Player, for more or less the reasons that Yahtzee has already stated.

MMO's aren't really games that have progression through a storyline or world (some do, but most don't really). MMO's are actually more about progression compared to your peers. You want to try to be the best, the best there ever was.

 

[RandV80]

I recall an old SNES JRPG that did something to this sort, called 7th Saga. Going with the #7 theme you pick one of 7 hero's (and you could party with another) sent out by the king to find the 7 runes to use to defeat the great evil. It was brutally hard in the way old JRPG's could be, made even harder by limited inventory space for healing items, but each rune you found was a powerful tool that could be used without limit to do anything from casting buffs to casting heal spells. They were a crutch used not just for boss fights but most random encounters as well. So you collect all 7 gaining all their power and move on to confront the last boss... only to lose, get stripped of the runes, and tossed through a portal. You thought you were done but you're only a little over halfway through the game at this point, and half to do it all over again without the powerful free buffs and healing. The new 7 runes you have to collect now have the reverse effect of the originals and can only be used in the final boss fight.

It was a good game overall, nothing to memoriable that people would remember it like FF or Chrono Trigger, I'm just bringing it up because on a smaller scale to what Yahtzee is suggesting this did indeed up being a very good game mechanic. Like you get half way through the game and everything becomes new again.

 

[Haukur Isleifsson]

I just got this same idea some days ago. Funny thing that. I really think it could be made to work.

 

[Yosarian2]

You could do this as a science fiction game. Guy from an advanced civilization lands on a much more primitive planet. At the start of the game, you've got tons of guns, powered armor that recharges itself, effectivly unlimited ammo for all your guns, jump jets, super strength, ect, and you're fighting guys with swords, bows, and arrows; whole armies of bad guys are trying to attack this little village of good guys, and at first you're taking down whole armies of them easily. But as the game goes on, the solar generator on your powered armor gets damaged, and recharges slower; your portable bullet-producing factory breaks down, and you are suddenly limited with your ammo. Parts of your powered armor break or fail, leaving you with less and less protection. None of it lasts forever, and none of it can be replaced on this primitive planet, so by the end of the game, you've got almost none of your super-science left, and are left with just a sword, a bow, and possibly a handgun with a rapidly dwindling supply of bullets.

The idea of the character himself getting weaker is kind of depressing, but your equipment failing, piece by piece, leaving you more and more to fend for yourself? That sounds cool.

 

[BrownGaijin]

For some reason this idea reminded me of "Lord of the Rings". Remember how Frodo and Sam were at the beginning of the journey as opposed to the end?

 

[Cameron Tillery]

I like the concept overall too. It makes me think of what Yahtzee has said about being stealthy in some games as a symbol of skill. Anyone can run into a room with guns blazing an mow everything down, but someone with skill could go through without anyone knowing they're there. A player who has leveled down so much and gone through a game will have that sort of skill to beat that final boss with a twig and dental floss, because he doesn't need anything else at that point.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

This is a terrible, TERRIBLE idea. In fact, Yahtzee, though people do partially play through games in order to progress through the story, playing in order to get stronger is an equally fundamental desire. Take that away and I and many people would not even consider playing it. It might make for an interesting indie internet game, but it would never fly as a mainstream title.

 

[K_Dub]

It's definitely an interesting idea. I can't really see it working as an MMO though. As a single-player campaign, I can easily see the toll the fighting is taking on your character as a kind of wake up call to the player. "Shit...this is a pretty serious deal."

It could become a pretty emotionally draining journey, as the player realizes that they may not be strong enough to take on this major challenge. I would REALLY like to something like this done.

 

[internetzealot1]

Would not work as an MMO. Maybe as a single-player game. The concept has a distinctively indie feel too it, and it would probably work better in a short, low budget title. Honestly, the only way I could see this working is if you took away a player's brute strength while replacing it with smarter ways to fight.

BTW, didn't they do something like this in Haze?

 

[Samurai Goomba]

Only in single player. There needs to be a defining quest which frames all of this-a motivation and cause that makes the player WANT to give up everything in pursuit of it. Sort of like how Shadow of the Colossus did character degradation to build menace.

I know people probably aren't big into them, but Dan Abnett has a bunch of extremely nerdy Warhammer 40k novels that all follow this EXACT template.

The hero and his squad is introduced as supremely awesome, they quash a minor (but still memorable) threat so you can see how unbeatable they are, then they embark on a massive campaign which physically and emotionally drains them, turning friends against each other and leaving 1 or 2 of the most beloved characters crawling towards their goals on broken legs; using their last ounce of strength to somehow delay the inevitable and save the world.

I read these books because, whatever else they are, they aren't boring. The Ultramarines omnibus probably did the best job at this, showing how the pride of Imperial mettle gradually becomes little better than a subhuman creature, winning battles against monstrous evil solely through willpower and the ability to sacrifice anything but principle. I think this concept could work in a game, and has worked in games to a lesser extent (Crono), but it needs a story so poignant, beautiful and heartbreaking that players will care enough to give up Fiery Death Lv. 7 to see where this is going.