What is with Jrpg's?

[Infernostrider]

i'm sure im not the first to say this, but im losing interest and wanna say it before i close down the browser and going to bed: You're coming across very negatively. I'll take it you're not looking to make friends, so i won't whine about it, but you really should try to be a little bit openminded. You think you have seen and experienced it all just because you go to bars? My hairy arse you have. And thats period.

To the topic at hand, though. A LOT of people can relate to insecure characters. Sure they might not always be the most likeable or even the most powerful, but they are often the most human. As to being insecure, or, god forbid, emo (why emo anyway? because they don't puke rainbows and shit violets? because they, god forbid, show emotions other then rage?), you are 100% right. These are NOT attractive traits in any person, and it is very likely only few women will go for a man who is emotionally weaker then they themselves are. That does not mean that it doesn't happen, and looking at humanity: it's often the anti-social geeks who succeed in life with a good wife and job, where it's the butch drunks who end up as being worse drunks then they already were.
However, and here is the main point of this much-longer-then-intended-rant, it is very rare...possibly non-existent, even...for girls to like main characters who are like this. over the course of the game, said main characters gain power, experience and most of all: self confidence. Cloud (ff7) might be a lone wolf who is afraid to get close to people because he might get hurt, at the start of ff7, and squall isn't much different from that in ff8 either, but at the end of their respective games they are brimming with confidence, they are stronger and know it.
As for leadership qualities, it's more story related then character related here. I'll refer to cloud and squall again because im too tired, and most of all lazy, to think of any others right now: Cloud is an ex-SOLDIER, therefore he knows stuff about the enemy. He is also always calm and looks confident, even if he doesn't feel that way. He might not be able to open up much, but lets face it: next to no guys like to talk, let alone about their emotions. Squall isn't much different here. I do believe, however, that charm factors in. The characters are charming, relateable, and this is the same way for the other characters: they recognise themselves in our leading char, they have faith that he who seems to be at the center of all the bad guys' attentions will get us out of it. In the case of actual leader-like types like cid in several FFs, or auron in FFx, it is because they either have been chosen to lead before the games story, and sucked at it due to themselves or circumstances, or because they want to give a new generation a chance (auron specificly).

oh and finally: this is the internet, you have to word your questions and statements VERY exactly so you don't insult anybody and nobody will missunderstand you in any way. It is very easy to get it wrong when not talking with actual voices, and if people seem to not get the gist of what you're getting at (which may be the case for me aswell, ofcourse), then you should realise you haven't made your statement clearly enough and you may want to consider rewording it

 

[Samcanuck]

Well you could tell us a character so we could have an idea of what kind your talking about.

Squall...that seems to be the least likely fan favorite I catch flak on my opinion for.
Though Cloud, Squal, Tidus, Cecil and Star Ocean 2 guy are stacked on the list for me (although I have a fondness for Cloud)

CECIL? Are you kidding? He has military training! In fact, he is the very opposite of what you have been describing. If you could tell me what your problem is with Cecil, it would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Also, okay, let's have super-awesome killing machine as the protagonist in FFXV. Now tell me, how will this character develop? From super-awesome killing machine to... super-awesomer killing machine? There aren't many places you can go with that, hence the choice of weaker characters as protagonists.

Ninja yourself and read the reply I gave to that person. And what, you think that a person has to be weak of character to grow as a person? Jeeze, not ever human being (or RPG main character) has grown up a whiny, overly emotion spaz. There is a reason that Cloud left...soldiers who act like a whiney ***** are disliked and leave ultimetely before there contract ends.

Quit discrediting the question, or my other statments that will answer what you are asking, just becuase you have your panties in a bunch.

 

[robmastaflex]

Oh, sorry. Eh, for the short time I played the game (my save crashed for some reason), I got the overal sense of the character being as such. It's my own personal opinion, but should not discredit the question.

In fact, most people on this page that wont answer the question are discrediting the the focus due to their own personal views of one or two characters (mainly cloud from ff7). It's like having a political debate, they wont answer the sum of the question because they can't get past some individual fandom. I just read a post that was talking about condefince of a guy who peep's into a girls bathroom. These kid's don't understand that confidence in women is knowing that if you wanted to see something, than you make your move and get the girl, not be some akward pervert.

You can't disuss anything with those people...they just don't get that it takes conversation and understanding to learn and teach....not emotions and withdrawl from the topic.

Well to be fair, in the case of Claude, there will be some of my personal bias put into my interpretation of the character, but I can see where you're coming from. I just seem to have a high tolerance for such character traits. Also, in some cases, I suppose such traits can add to the appeal of a character, for example as I previously mentionned, Claude's whining made him a slightly better character to me as it's something I could relate to if I was inexplicably thrust into a similar situation.

On the point about being a team leader though, I'd say you're right. Certain traits that you mention do make bad characterisation when the character is the main leading force in the team. This only really applies to the FF games you mentionned though in my opinion, as the Star Ocean games seem to be based around a team with no real leader (with the possible exception of The Last Hope, due to Edge being the Captain of the Calnus).

 

[Zetswe]

Right....and/or the personality traits if you must [see my edit]. But confidence in the mission and an outward projection of strong character are key necessities for a leader in the case of inspiring your team, creating focus, commanding authority and preserving moral. Sadly Cloud, though powerful and flawed (as humans are), does not give me the overal sense of leadership. And it is in that lies the question.

And though most people is the correct statment, a leader must rise up beyond his own weakness...hense Cid would have made (and did for a short time) the better leader. The question is the draw...and I guess you have answered that well, human qualities...and the fantasy that a leader can be a flawed kid. Especially acting in a flawed manner that many JRPG characters do.

Hang on, we're talking about different characters here. I'm on about the main character of Star Ocean 2 here. Though I agree that Cid was a better leader in FFVII, though I'm probably biased on that due to him being my favourite character there.

Oh, sorry. Eh, for the short time I played the game (my save crashed for some reason), I got the overal sense of the character being as such. It's my own personal opinion, but should not discredit the question.

In fact, most people on this page that wont answer the question are discrediting the the focus due to their own personal views of one or two characters (mainly cloud from ff7). It's like having a political debate, they wont answer the sum of the question because they can't get past some individual fandom. I just read a post that was talking about condefince of a guy who peep's into a girls bathroom. These kid's don't understand that confidence in women is knowing that if you wanted to see something, than you make your move and get the girl, not be some akward pervert.

You can't disuss anything with those people...they just don't get that it takes conversation and understanding to learn and teach....not emotions and withdrawl from the topic.

Ya your right there hope I'm not one of the people your talking about there.It's like I said befor it's a culture thing and age us old JRPG players want a new muter JRPG but the game's are not targeted to that and the few that are somehow fail but we can't do anything about it unless we try to change it.

 

[Samcanuck]

snip

Great post.

 

[Zetswe]

Chrono shouldn't count for either group because he's a silent protagonist and thus didn't really have what you would call a personality per se. Squall was kind of, but remember the guy is 17; nobody is completely angst-less at 17. Cloud was a headcase so again, only really counts in Advent children. Tidus on the other hand, annoyed the bloody hell out of me for all the stated reasons. Other then those, I do agree that VII was where things started going downhill, though to be fair, it's usually the villains who are effeminate rather then the main characters.

Ya FF7 is one of the starting points but with the villain thing are you talking about FF9 I love that game but dam Kuja...just wow.

Kuja, Sephiroth and Seymour are the big ones. Especially Seymour. Sephy more as a total pretty boy way. Kefka somewhat, but it's excusable since he's batsh*t insane the whole time. And Kuja....Yeah, I half expected "Sweet Transvestite" as his battle theme.

Ya Kuja and Frank scare me but I love them.

 

[Samcanuck]

JRPG heroes are presented like that because they have the ability to grow over the course of the game, much like the characters of a book or movie might. Having a hard badass for a main character leaves no room for growth in the story of a JRPG, unless he grows to be more sociable towards the other characters, but that's not nearly as interesting or relatable as a weak, wimpy person becoming someone who can stand up for themselves when it matters. And the reason why this is done is indeed because Japanese men are very timid, so these characters who can and do change who they are are meant to inspire confidence. And the reason why they get the girl is because of that as well. It's a "you can become the person you want to be" sort of thing. Guys here in America don't always have these confidence issues, so it makes less sense to them, but in a game, just like in a movie or a book, it's satisfying to see a weak person become strong over the course of the story.

Another excellent post. Thankyou.

 

[FinalHeart95]

Well you could tell us a character so we could have an idea of what kind your talking about.

Squall...that seems to be the least likely fan favorite I catch flak on my opinion for.
Though Cloud, Squal, Tidus, Cecil and Star Ocean 2 guy are stacked on the list for me (although I have a fondness for Cloud)

CECIL? Are you kidding? He has military training! In fact, he is the very opposite of what you have been describing. If you could tell me what your problem is with Cecil, it would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Also, okay, let's have super-awesome killing machine as the protagonist in FFXV. Now tell me, how will this character develop? From super-awesome killing machine to... super-awesomer killing machine? There aren't many places you can go with that, hence the choice of weaker characters as protagonists.

Ninja yourself and read the reply I gave to that person. And what, you think that a person has to be weak of character to grow as a person? Jeeze, not ever human being (or RPG main character) has grown up a whiny, overly emotion spaz. There is a reason that Cloud left...soldiers who act like a whiney ***** are disliked and leave ultimetely before there contract ends.

Quit discrediting the question, or my other statments that will answer what you are asking, just becuase you have your panties in a bunch.

I'm sorry to come off so rudely, but I simply have no clue how Cecil could be considered a whiny emo kid. And I still have no clue, as you avoided the question, just as you say I did. Also, what reply? We are clearly talking about two different people, as the person that I said ninja'd me has no reply from you.

No, characters do not have to be "weak" to grow, necessarily, although it certainly makes it a hell of a lot easier. You're hinting at the fact that JRPG leads are whiny emo bitches, which is the case for quite a few of them at the beginning of the game. By the end though, they have developed and become confident, and a lot less "emo". This is character development, which is something that I find a lot of WRPGs lack, because they are all super-macho soldiers with anger issues. The only thing there to develop is the anger thing, because they're already super-macho, so they can't get stronger. I digress though, basically these kind of characters are easier to develop than those used in western games.

Anyway, your original question... wait, I already did. Character development. Also, they are relate-able to an extent, although I could see where some find them annoying.

 

[WhiteMonkey]

Cloud? Effeminate? What have you been smoking? he hits puny littel shinra guys with a sword the size of texas.

Besides if you knew the back story you'd know he just dosen't give a danm because hes devoted to aeris.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but... Didn't Cloud beat two other gorgeous women while he was dressed as a girl and courting Don Conero? That should indicate that he's very effeminate and could pass as a girl, no?

And to the people that are commenting about how whiny MC are better because there's more to work with in regards to character development... The main character can be a combat seasoned veteran/soldier/what-have-you and still be a character that has lots of room for development and he would still remain plausible as a charismatic leader leader due to his background. When someone like Tidus manages to save the world, it doesn't feel like an accomplishment, it feels rather like a miracle. I mean, it's not THAT hard to make a decent background for a character, is it now? But, why should the developers try to make better characters when they already have a selling formula, right?
This is why I don't like general audience of games like Final Fantasy. They just keep pouring in the money so the developers don't have the need to improve things. Stop paying for this crap (I'm looking at you FFXIII) and they will have to turn things around. In this case, wallets speak lauder than words.

 

[Samcanuck]

Well you could tell us a character so we could have an idea of what kind your talking about.

Squall...that seems to be the least likely fan favorite I catch flak on my opinion for.
Though Cloud, Squal, Tidus, Cecil and Star Ocean 2 guy are stacked on the list for me (although I have a fondness for Cloud)

CECIL? Are you kidding? He has military training! In fact, he is the very opposite of what you have been describing. If you could tell me what your problem is with Cecil, it would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Also, okay, let's have super-awesome killing machine as the protagonist in FFXV. Now tell me, how will this character develop? From super-awesome killing machine to... super-awesomer killing machine? There aren't many places you can go with that, hence the choice of weaker characters as protagonists.

Ninja yourself and read the reply I gave to that person. And what, you think that a person has to be weak of character to grow as a person? Jeeze, not ever human being (or RPG main character) has grown up a whiny, overly emotion spaz. There is a reason that Cloud left...soldiers who act like a whiney ***** are disliked and leave ultimetely before there contract ends.

Quit discrediting the question, or my other statments that will answer what you are asking, just becuase you have your panties in a bunch.

I'm sorry to come off so rudely, but I simply have no clue how Cecil could be considered a whiny emo kid. And I still have no clue, as you avoided the question, just as you say I did. Also, what reply? We are clearly talking about two different people, as the person that I said ninja'd me has no reply from you.

No, characters do not have to be "weak" to grow, necessarily, although it certainly makes it a hell of a lot easier. You're hinting at the fact that JRPG leads are whiny emo bitches, which is the case for quite a few of them at the beginning of the game. By the end though, they have developed and become confident, and a lot less "emo". This is character development, which is something that I find a lot of WRPGs lack, because they are all super-macho soldiers with anger issues. The only thing there to develop is the anger thing, because they're already super-macho, so they can't get stronger. I digress though, basically these kind of characters are easier to develop than those used in western games.

Anyway, your original question... wait, I already did. Character development. Also, they are relate-able to an extent, although I could see where some find them annoying.

Hmm...I never got that impression of Cecil until I played the DS version and understood the overal impression and approach that Cecil used when saying his given dialoge. Guess, you wont know until you play the game, for it's all about your own mind reading voiceless text in the Snes version. Different when you see the character beat the wall with his fist or cry out so very often in a melodramatic way.

But yes you have answered the questions. If I am correct you feel that Jrpg's base there storylines with the idea of growth of personality...starting with personalities that fail to denote a presence of leadership, but then move into doing just that. I personally feel, even at the end, the main characters typically fail to achieve an overal presence of leadership, and are simple acceptied for there flaw's. I also fail to see the draw that ones own personality progression should somehow enhance an already solid plot (as seen in the contrary by voiceless yet timeless Jrpg hero's)...and moreso, be the main theme overtop of the main plot. That's what I was wondering...if its a culture thing. Some others have said that it is a cutlure thing on the thred. I feel that I have learned what I can now and am now just damage controlling however.

Anyways, have a good one.

 

[Samcanuck]

Cloud? Effeminate? What have you been smoking? he hits puny littel shinra guys with a sword the size of texas.

Besides if you knew the back story you'd know he just dosen't give a danm because hes devoted to aeris.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but... Didn't Cloud beat two other gorgeous women while he was dressed as a girl and courting Don Conero? That should indicate that he's very effeminate and could pass as a girl, no?

And to the people that are commenting about how whiny MC are better because there's more to work with in regards to character development... The main character can be a combat seasoned veteran/soldier/what-have-you and still be a character that has lots of room for development and he would still remain plausible as a charismatic leader leader due to his background. When someone like Tidus manages to save the world, it doesn't feel like an accomplishment, it feels rather like a miracle. I mean, it's not THAT hard to make a decent background for a character, is it now? But, why should the developers try to make better characters when they already have a selling formula, right?
This is why I don't like general audience of games like Final Fantasy. They just keep pouring in the money so the developers don't have the need to improve things. Stop paying for this crap (I'm looking at you FFXIII) and they will have to turn things around. In this case, wallets speak lauder than words.

This is sorta my view aswell, and the reason for my question.
Glad to see I'm not alone (And I know that most people on this site feel the same thing (there have been polls conducted for goodness sake)...just most people opposed to my question for whatever reason are voicing there opinion in very fandom ways.

Been a struggle, but the hump has been dealt with I hope. Thanks for your opinion.

 

[DarkRyter]

Whiny, spazzy, and effeminate?

I always assumed most JRPG heroes didn't even talk, much less have any sense of character.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Its mostly marketing. Why is it that in most American made games the protagonist is a muscualr badass? Its because that is America's view as their ideal man. In Japan, they value beauty and basically flair, that is why feminate boys are usually considered sexy. ( Some can still look creepy, but others can take it WAY TOO FAR. Ex: Bridgette.)

And towards the weak characters, an explanation I can give is that it leaves room for character development. If the chcratcer was confident and strong, what else can that lead too? Him being even more confident and strong? That is why in JRPGS are tales of passage, young boys going from sniveling **** ot adulthood and maturity. But at the same time, what rpgs have you been playing? Throughout my time playing, I don't really recall a protagonist with those traits ( Besides Ness, but he is the only one that comes to mind)

 

[Fightgarr]

The reason is because teenage males need someone to connect with. Now, while Squall or Cloud or whoever may be absolutely nothing like anyone you've ever met (at least anyone you didn't want to punch), they are exactly what nerdy kids envision themselves as. Ever gone into a thread about what video game character you're most like? A lot of people list characters like Squall and Cloud. How about animals that you're like? Everyone seems to pick wolves for the reason that they're "loners". Here's the thing, guys (especially ones with a lack of female aptitude) tend to want to think that women love them anyway. Look at Squall, he's completely socially retarded, but Quistis and Rinoa like him for that. A teenager with a lack of social skills who has a hard time talking to girls and goes: Woah man! That's me if I was a badass! They connect themselves to that character because that character is their successful, badass incarnation. It's the reason why that character exists: because JRPG-makers know that they aren't really being played by frat guys, they're (typically) being played by the quieter, nerdier types. It's a massive generalization, but there you have it.

Also, to the OP (and a lot of people our there): acronyms are given plurals just like any other noun. They do not require an apostrophe.

 

[Jfswift]

I see this more in anime, like Shinji in Neon Genesis Evangaleon where he's kind of a wuss, than in mainstream jrpgs. I don't really care for guys that are semi-confident in games or shows even if that is realistic, although i'll tolerate them so long as the story is good, and I see some character growth.

 

[Aureli]

The reason is because teenage males need someone to connect with. Now, while Squall or Cloud or whoever may be absolutely nothing like anyone you've ever met (at least anyone you didn't want to punch), they are exactly what nerdy kids envision themselves as. Ever gone into a thread about what video game character you're most like? A lot of people list characters like Squall and Cloud. How about animals that you're like? Everyone seems to pick wolves for the reason that they're "loners". Here's the thing, guys (especially ones with a lack of female aptitude) tend to want to think that women love them anyway. Look at Squall, he's completely socially retarded, but Quistis and Rinoa like him for that. A teenager with a lack of social skills who has a hard time talking to girls and goes: Woah man! That's me if I was a badass! They connect themselves to that character because that character is their successful, badass incarnation. It's the reason why that character exists: because JRPG-makers know that they aren't really being played by frat guys, they're (typically) being played by the quieter, nerdier types. It's a massive generalization, but there you have it.

Also, to the OP (and a lot of people our there): acronyms are given plurals just like any other noun. They do not require an apostrophe.

This is completely off topic, but this needs to be pointed out. Wolves are not loners. They are pack-oriented animal.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand, glad you liked my earlier post.

 

[Yureina]

Well, some of these "emo" main characters in JRPG's do actually grow a little bit and become somewhat more likeable by the end of the game. The 3 Final Fantasy games that I have played (7,8,10) all had a main character that irritated me, but at the same time those main characters were usually much more tolerable at the end of the game than they were at the beginning, especially Squall in FFVIII. Maybe its just that I had been playing as that wierd emo kid for ~20 odd hours and I no longer allowed myself to get bothered by the character, or the character did indeed become somewhat more likeable as story events occured.

 

[brodie21]

they suck, and they are populated by 12 year old girls. including the "guys"

 

[Zetswe]

Well, some of these "emo" main characters in JRPG's do actually grow a little bit and become somewhat more likeable by the end of the game. The 3 Final Fantasy games that I have played (7,8,10) all had a main character that irritated me, but at the same time those main characters were usually much more tolerable at the end of the game than they were at the beginning, especially Squall in FFVIII. Maybe its just that I had been playing as that wierd emo kid for ~20 odd hours and I no longer allowed myself to get bothered by the character, or the character did indeed become somewhat more likeable as story events occured.

This is another way a character changes they grow on you to the point were you get use to them.

 

[Marter]

JRPGs have done this since they first started, and they made money. Companies aren't going to change what makes money, so the trend continues. When JRPGs with these types of characters stop being purchased, they'll stop including those types of characters in the games.