What is with Jrpg's?

[Towels]

I agree that most recent jRPGs I have played have this whiney, uninspiring quality in their writtings, but its not so much the main character being insecure with women that bothers me. Usually its a story with a love-plot shoehorned in that gets on my nerves.

EXAMPLE: Final Fantasy 8
Squenix marketed this game as an epic drama of love and coming of age, but the love plot is only vaguely related to the game's epic story arc of saving the world from an empire that is manipulated by a faceless, distant bad guy. The story makes loose, insubstantial connections of the Love plot and the main story arc, and doesn't finish. Didn't Laguna have a big thing for Rinoa's mother? Isn't Rinoa's father a general of the Empire? Why should I care that Laguna fell in love with some other woman, and futher, why is Laguna's adopted daughter making Squall relive these moments, when doing so actually gave the bad guy a tool to achieve her goal? What is so special about of symbolism of Squall's ring that gave to Rinoa other than its just a nice, pretty trinket to give his sweetie?

Its tied together by the time-honored cop out of how Rinoa turns out to be the choosen one, but only near the end and its just thrown as a plot device. (Plus, I find Rinoa annoying. WAY too bubbly, and WAY too niave.) In the end, the love plot only serves as a backdrop that ensures the protagonist has a happy ending; It does not function at all in the resolution of the final conflict. (I went through that whole game without using Rinoa except when I was forced to.) As a player, I'm told directly by Laguna that the intense feelings of True Love is what gives my party strength over the bad guys, but he doesn't tell me why, and I just have to take his word that intense emotion protected my party from time compression.
I just didn't feel the "Love" anyways and that left me with the nagging feeling of missing a point that probably isn't there.

BIAS alert: I really didn't like Squall or Rinoa as characters anyways. I only liked Irvine, but I probably wouldn't if he wasn't the "Specialist."

Also, characters that are confidient and skilled to begin can indeed grow into something more. Take Cecil for instance. Thats a lot of ground to cover in character development; it shouldn't just be disregarded simply the growth isn't so radical like Cloud's progression.

 

[Yureina]

Well, some of these "emo" main characters in JRPG's do actually grow a little bit and become somewhat more likeable by the end of the game. The 3 Final Fantasy games that I have played (7,8,10) all had a main character that irritated me, but at the same time those main characters were usually much more tolerable at the end of the game than they were at the beginning, especially Squall in FFVIII. Maybe its just that I had been playing as that wierd emo kid for ~20 odd hours and I no longer allowed myself to get bothered by the character, or the character did indeed become somewhat more likeable as story events occured.

This is another way a character changes they grow on you to the point were you get use to them.

Perhaps, but I mentioned FFX on that list as well. I HATE Tidus with a fiery passion, but even I could sort of tolerate him at the end of the game, if only because I knew some... things about him that made me look forward to that ending.

Those characters I think *do* get better, if only to shift from massive amount of hate to just being somewhat annoying.

 

[Zetswe]

Well, some of these "emo" main characters in JRPG's do actually grow a little bit and become somewhat more likeable by the end of the game. The 3 Final Fantasy games that I have played (7,8,10) all had a main character that irritated me, but at the same time those main characters were usually much more tolerable at the end of the game than they were at the beginning, especially Squall in FFVIII. Maybe its just that I had been playing as that wierd emo kid for ~20 odd hours and I no longer allowed myself to get bothered by the character, or the character did indeed become somewhat more likeable as story events occured.

This is another way a character changes they grow on you to the point were you get use to them.

Perhaps, but I mentioned FFX on that list as well. I HATE Tidus with a fiery passion, but even I could sort of tolerate him at the end of the game, if only because I knew some... things about him that made me look forward to that ending.

Those characters I think *do* get better, if only to shift from massive amount of hate to just being somewhat annoying.

Ya same here I never liked him but he got better over time I got used to him.

 

[fletch_talon]

I can't say I've ever encountered these emo characters everyone seems to talk about. I have seen characters that express emotions like fear and sadness, but that can't be what you're talking about, because that would imply that there is something wrong with showing emotions.

 

[Thaius]

Because the main character in a good story is not the one with the most admirable traits: that makes for a one-dimensional journey and a boring story on the personal level. The character has to be flawed. There must be some character trait, or many, that the events of the story will change in the main character. Characters like Auron and Yang pretty much already have it figured out: they would be boring protagonists. Any good story will involve a personal journey of the main character: even Halo has this. And, in pretty much all Japanese media, this is a hugely emphasized aspect of storytelling.

EDIT: Also, I would argue that most JRPGs do not have these protagonists. In fact, JRPGs in general have much greater variety in characters than the haters claim. I guess they just can't tell the difference somehow.

 

[Veldt Falsetto]

You think girls don't like effeminate guys? I don't want to say you are living under a rock but...

In other words, some girls like effeminate guys a lot, in fact some girls only like those kind of guys.

The majority don't in the realie real world. As far as I have seen in my time. You telling me most women like lack of confidence or a guy who doesn't seem like they can or will protect them?

The guys end up kicking ass and saving the world, just because they doubt themselves verbally doesn't mean they do literally. It largely depends on what type of girl anyway, not all girls like the stereotype of being a helpless girl needing a man to protect them.

Look man, go out to a bar...people watch a bit. I'm just saying what I have seen and experianced. Women tend to not even look twice at the unsure guy. You might think differently, but I have heard and seen everything on the contrary. Not sure where you are coming from...but I personally think you are fooling yourself to think that most women regard effeminate/weak traits as attractive. Doesn't mean women are weak for that. Jesus...look at 100% of nature for goodness sake!

If you're picking up girls in a bar or club the ol' "look at my muscles" way of getting the girl is fine but it's called a one night stand.

I don't see Tidus tiptoeing out of bed and leaving Yuna with a note, no he'd stay and cuddle, and that's the difference in a relationship and sex.

If she wants sex it's likely the masculine guy who seems a bit dumb, do it then leave, that appeals but most girls, if they want someone to love, it'll be the guy who can understand her emotions and the guy she trusts won't play her and for that they have to be a bit effeminite, and every JRPG lead is relatively good-looking so that helps

 

[Fightgarr]

This is completely off topic, but this needs to be pointed out. Wolves are not loners. They are pack-oriented animal.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand, glad you liked my earlier post.

Oh, I know. Hence why loners was in quotations. People also like to pick ravens as "loners" despite them being very playful animals. It just fits in with whole Squall-like attitude for them, and they feel that since they think those animals are badass or what-have-you, that they must be loners. It makes sense, right? Well, no.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Besides, not all JRPG protagonists are whiny, insecure guys. It's kind of a cliché, I think.

It seems to me those are the exception, not the rule.

 

[Fidelias]

Um... girls are human beings? They kind of have tons of likes and dislikes just like guys do. There are bound to be girls who are into that kind of guy.

Though, I have to agree that SOME (not all) jrpg's have really annoying main characters.
On the other hand, I get sick of seeing macho main characters who look like they've been pumped with steroids and have no emotion except for sadism.(*cough cough* Marcus *cough* Gears of *cough* War *cough*)

 

[Eponet]

And to the people that are commenting about how whiny MC are better because there's more to work with in regards to character development... The main character can be a combat seasoned veteran/soldier/what-have-you and still be a character that has lots of room for development and he would still remain plausible as a charismatic leader leader due to his background. When someone like Tidus manages to save the world, it doesn't feel like an accomplishment, it feels rather like a miracle. I mean, it's not THAT hard to make a decent background for a character, is it now? But, why should the developers try to make better characters when they already have a selling formula, right?
This is why I don't like general audience of games like Final Fantasy. They just keep pouring in the money so the developers don't have the need to improve things. Stop paying for this crap (I'm looking at you FFXIII) and they will have to turn things around. In this case, wallets speak lauder than words.

Ironically, FF13 is a perfect counter example.

Lightning:
- Experienced miltary background: Check
- Awkward around women: No way. Just not interested in them
- Effeminate Appearance: Okay, I'll give you that

Anyway, I can't actually think of a single example of protagonist that fits the awkward with women part. Most just don't seem to care. Not everyone is ruled by their libidos.

Then again, I'm not particularly well versed in JPRGs, I've only played FF4,6,7,8,9,10,12,13. Fate/Stay Night, Tsukihime, Moonshine, Legend of Dragoon, Vagrant Story, and Dragon Valor.

Of course, I'm sure all of these are just exceptions to the rule though.

 

[Negatempest]

See, after looking back at some of those games, a few things came to mind that didn't make sense at ALL. Lets use FF7 for example.

We all know that these very same characters faced beings BEYOND their simple comprehension of physics that used abilities that could wipe out cities in a single attack, yet if they get "KO'd" from these hits a potion by the name of "Phoenix Down" brought them back to life and ready to fight again like those attacks never happened. Yet when Aerith was "KO'd" by Seph in that whole "weepy" scene, all Cloud did was weep some more. I would have been the guy in the group slapping Cloud over the head and telling him "You IDIOT! We has over a DOZEN Pheonix Down's in our backpacks, we can USE THEM!"

You can't give me this bull about it being "reality" during a cut-scene, but be over the top fantasy during fight sequences. That kind of **** NEVER made sense.

 

[Eponet]

You think girls don't like effeminate guys? I don't want to say you are living under a rock but...

In other words, some girls like effeminate guys a lot, in fact some girls only like those kind of guys.

The majority don't in the realie real world. As far as I have seen in my time. You telling me most women like lack of confidence or a guy who doesn't seem like they can or will protect them?

The guys end up kicking ass and saving the world, just because they doubt themselves verbally doesn't mean they do literally. It largely depends on what type of girl anyway, not all girls like the stereotype of being a helpless girl needing a man to protect them.

Look man, go out to a bar...people watch a bit. I'm just saying what I have seen and experianced. Women tend to not even look twice at the unsure guy. You might think differently, but I have heard and seen everything on the contrary. Not sure where you are coming from...but I personally think you are fooling yourself to think that most women regard effeminate/weak traits as attractive. Doesn't mean women are weak for that. Jesus...look at 100% of nature for goodness sake!

If you're picking up girls in a bar or club the ol' "look at my muscles" way of getting the girl is fine but it's called a one night stand.

I don't see Tidus tiptoeing out of bed and leaving Yuna with a note, no he'd stay and cuddle, and that's the difference in a relationship and sex.

If she wants sex it's likely the masculine guy who seems a bit dumb, do it then leave, that appeals but most girls, if they want someone to love, it'll be the guy who can understand her emotions and the guy she trusts won't play her and for that they have to be a bit effeminite, and every JRPG lead is relatively good-looking so that helps

They don't /have/ to be effeminate. I'd trust Minsc, or Keldorn, or Valgyr not to do that, and I don't see any of them as effeminate in any way.

 

[Z(ombie)fan]

weak traits=/=weak person.

any who knows me IRL can tell that.

(that really pissed me off, as my personality profile is weak, but get if you piss me off there will hell to pay. and probably jail time, cause i wont stop till i cant continue. plus i play dirty.)

 

[NeutralDrow]

The weird thing is that there used to be no difference between JRPGs and WRPGs (Western RPGs). I'm just wondering, where did JRPGs and WRPGs split off?

The original designation was between computer and console RPGs. While they both had similar source material, the mechanical capabilities of PCs and consoles led to many of the system differences between the two subgenres, as well as influencing the direction that needed to be taken in order for the games to ultimately be satisfying. Thus, console RPGs (originally most popular in Japan, where Nintendo reigned) dealt with graphical and memory limitations with gameplay mechanics like random encounters and storytelling methods that ultimately better fit a linear game. PCs never really had to deal with these problems, and thus stuck closer to the "imitation D&D" model.

The ultimate result was two contrasting game styles and cultures. Real-world cultural differences may have had some effect, but were almost entirely limited to storytelling conventions.

 

[Samcanuck]

Glad to see I'm not alone (And I know that most people on this site feel the same thing (there have been polls conducted for goodness sake)...just most people opposed to my question for whatever reason are voicing there opinion in very fandom ways.

Been a struggle, but the hump has been dealt with I hope. Thanks for your opinion.

I think it's recoil from your borderline trollish OP.
Maybe tone it down a notch (next time) and you might get a more pleasant debate.

As it stands, all you've managed is to stir up a hornets nest. I'm actually quite happy to see so many come to the defense of JRPGs in this thread. It gets really annoying to hear the same lame "spike hair, effeminate characters" comments over and over again in any JRPG thread.

If you don't like something or you just don't "get" it, don't play it. Surprise! Some of us actually do enjoy JRPGs. They don't need any more "fixing" than any other genre. There's just more childish venom spewed their way lately, for reasons that I have theories on (but will not speak of it as it would most definitely start a war of flames).

What do you mean by trollish OP? I have a question that's valid, and agreed on by enough people. I have a write to ask it, so what is your deal? Was that reply I wrote to you? Who then is being the troll?

 

[ethaninja]

You think girls don't like effeminate guys? I don't want to say you are living under a rock but...

In other words, some girls like effeminate guys a lot, in fact some girls only like those kind of guys.

Yeah is it just me or does acting/dressing like a homosexual get you the ladies these days?

 

[Samcanuck]

You think girls don't like effeminate guys? I don't want to say you are living under a rock but...

In other words, some girls like effeminate guys a lot, in fact some girls only like those kind of guys.

The majority don't in the realie real world. As far as I have seen in my time. You telling me most women like lack of confidence or a guy who doesn't seem like they can or will protect them?

The guys end up kicking ass and saving the world, just because they doubt themselves verbally doesn't mean they do literally. It largely depends on what type of girl anyway, not all girls like the stereotype of being a helpless girl needing a man to protect them.

Look man, go out to a bar...people watch a bit. I'm just saying what I have seen and experianced. Women tend to not even look twice at the unsure guy. You might think differently, but I have heard and seen everything on the contrary. Not sure where you are coming from...but I personally think you are fooling yourself to think that most women regard effeminate/weak traits as attractive. Doesn't mean women are weak for that. Jesus...look at 100% of nature for goodness sake!

If you're picking up girls in a bar or club the ol' "look at my muscles" way of getting the girl is fine but it's called a one night stand.

I don't see Tidus tiptoeing out of bed and leaving Yuna with a note, no he'd stay and cuddle, and that's the difference in a relationship and sex.

If she wants sex it's likely the masculine guy who seems a bit dumb, do it then leave, that appeals but most girls, if they want someone to love, it'll be the guy who can understand her emotions and the guy she trusts won't play her and for that they have to be a bit effeminite, and every JRPG lead is relatively good-looking so that helps

How old are you anyways? Have you even read anything I have put? Are you a female or a ladies man? Can you explain exactly the 'Look at my muscles' way of getting girls exactly? Do you have any kind of logic behind what you are saying?

 

[Brad Shepard]

Non Square games aside, im not seeing most of the JRPGs girlymen.

Disgaea 1 and 2: Laharel and Adell are key points agenst you there.

Persona 3 and 4: Ok, 3 had that ribbon around his neck, but thats it, and 4 was just awesome in all meanings of the word.

Lloyd from Tails of Synphonia (best gamecube RPG): Nothing like that whatsoever.

Darts from Tails of Dragooon: Im not seeing it either.

 

[temporalcrux]

See, my viewpoints on this are a bit skewed. I gave up on Final Fantasy as a good JRPG after FF8. Mostly because Square was experimenting with things like level limits, monster growth in proportion to character level....

When I thing of JRPG, I think of my favorite classics, like Vagrant Story or Xenogears, or more recent games like almost all the ATLUS/Nippon Ichi games. You tell me Laharl's a fru-fru and I'll laugh in your face. The lead males in Shin Megami Tensai come across to me as badasses as well. And while I can question the outfits of some of the males in the Growlanser series, they're not falling into your category. Hell, even friggin Lloyd from "Tales of Symphonia" is a badass, masculine lead male.

What's your answer to this? "Exceptions to the rule"? Nah, I think you just see what you want to see, as you've said. And as such, why bother with the thread if you won't admit that you're understandings of the genre or characters is wrong?

 

[Cyan.]

Why has every post with the correct answer been ignored?

Young japanese men are for the most part, socially inept and complete failures at women. Also seeing as japan is a partriarchal society, the young men are given a massive dose of personality disorder by having to live up to the manly men of the house that their fathers are. Not to mention the sexual repression which leads to all these perverse habbits they have.

Socialising in japanese culture is like a train wreck in slow motion.... How that race manages to reproduce is beyond me.


However, i for one dispise the main characters of JRPGs because they are the polar opposite of myself and i find them infuriating. I am completley unable to relate to them and I spend my time yelling at the screen, cursing them for their stupididy.

I can really however, sum this rant up with an image of my favorite piece of JRPG lead character dialouge, which apears in every JRPG game over and over without fail.
I believe it symbolises the strength and value of all JRPG lead characters.