WHITE GUY DEFENSE FORCE GO!

[Owyn_Merrilin]

If the black guy thinks race does matter, it makes him kind of racist himself.

How so? Racism is not the admission that race matters. If it was, sickle-cell anemia would be a racist disease. Wanting to insert some melanin into the painfully white world of video games protagonists isn't racism either; it's a desire to be represented.

Race either matters or it doesn't, you really can't have it both ways.

Yes I can. It depends entirely on the character. Making Heimdall black is of no consequence because Heimdall's race is immaterial. Making Malcom X white? Yeah, kind of a problem.

Not entirely related, but there's a pretty funny skit on the subject from Donald Glover.

Heimdall was a god who lived in a totally alien society where race apparently didn't matter, though. That doesn't really apply to a character like Johnny Storm.

Edit: And after watching that video, not only is it hilarious, but he doesn't fall into the double standard I'm talking about. When it gets down to it I don't really care about the issue itself, but I do get annoyed by the way caring about a race swap is called racism... but only if it's from white to a minority, with taking a character in the other direction somehow being a /more/ racist thing to do than complaining about going from white to black/another minority.

Same thing with a lot of the social justice issue debates as they're carried out on the internet. I just don't like seeing people get called racists by even bigger racists, or sexists by even bigger sexists, or... (you get the idea.)

 

[The Wooster]

If the black guy thinks race does matter, it makes him kind of racist himself.

How so? Racism is not the admission that race matters. If it was, sickle-cell anemia would be a racist disease. Wanting to insert some melanin into the painfully white world of video games protagonists isn't racism either; it's a desire to be represented.

Race either matters or it doesn't, you really can't have it both ways.

Yes I can. It depends entirely on the character. Making Heimdall black is of no consequence because Heimdall's race is immaterial. Making Malcom X white? Yeah, kind of a problem.

Not entirely related, but there's a pretty funny skit on the subject from Donald Glover.

Heimdall was a god who lived in a totally alien society where race apparently didn't matter, though. That doesn't really apply to a character like Johnny Storm.

That becomes a question of realism. Just because Storm exists in a universe much like our own, doesn't mean his race is essential to his character arc. Unless the story REQUIRES him to be a particular race, I don't see the harm in changing it. At the same time, I probably wouldn't go out of my way to CHANGE his race unless the right actor came along. It's a complex, delicate issue, but it isn't the minefield many make it out to be. I'd be all for a black Spiderman, but I don't think a black Batman would work.

 

[scotth266]

I can't see the "Zimmerman mode activate" part of the joke as being anything but dumb. Comedy is meant to tackle touchy subject matters, but when you're criticizing "white-guy defending" and then have them blow away a black guy, you're completely missing the mark.

"White-guy videogame defenders" (WGVDs) aren't actively attempting to murder black people. They're guilty of an attempt to defend an uneven status quo, but even that is somewhat understandable given that the status quo is in their favor and people are prone to ignore that sort of thing. And some of the criticism they put forth isn't unwarranted - the games industry needs more not-white-guy characters, but a lot of attempts to introduce them have been ham-fisted at best, and that probably leads to some of that "not-really-identifying" issue that the comic's first panel touches on.

A good chunk of the opposition to more minority characters is probably due to buried racism. But while we might feel tempted to look down on WGVDs, they're fans of the medium and want what they feel is best for videogames - they're not actively TRYING to be racist. And given that the first panel seems to indicate that this comic's creators understand that, it's all the more jarring when, a few panels later, they equate WGVDs to cold-blooded murderers (as they clearly believe Zimmerman is.)

It's probably trying to draw some parallel to the over-reactions WGVDs have on the internet to the over-reaction they think Zimmerman had, but it really just doesn't work. There's a world of difference between some WGVD on the internet getting defensive over someone "playing the race card" and what happened in the Zimmerman case.

 

[fromthepoisonwell]

I don't see how mashing up a few terrible memes about how shitty reddit (and the associated crowd) is should be funny. Then again, maybe I frequented le reddit too long back in the day and have just been exposed to reddit's self hate too much to find it entertaining anymore.

 

[JimB]

I don't understand your argument.

The edited comic makes fun of the black guy for betraying his own position that race isn't important. That makes no sense because the black guy never says race isn't important. He just throws that back in the other guy's face after the other guy said it.

I never said that the article was the proof, I said this article is pretty non biased and lays everything out.

Then why did you provide it, if it doesn't prove any of the assertions you make? Are you just trying to change the subject and hoping I'll drop the question?

Race either matters or it doesn't, you really can't have it both ways.

We're not talking about the strip any more, are we? Because the black dude in the strip wasn't trying to have it both ways. That's the people he was arguing with trying to do that; they're the ones saying race doesn't matter, so it therefore matters if a character turns black.

 

[HalfTangible]

If the black guy thinks race does matter, it makes him kind of racist himself.

How so? Racism is not the admission that race matters. If it was, sickle-cell anemia would be a racist disease. Wanting to insert some melanin into the painfully white world of video games protagonists isn't racism either; it's a desire to be represented.

Race either matters or it doesn't, you really can't have it both ways.

Yes I can. It depends entirely on the character. Making Heimdall black is of no consequence because Heimdall's race is immaterial. Making Malcom X white? Yeah, kind of a problem.

Not entirely related, but there's a pretty funny skit on the subject from Donald Glover.

Making Malcolm X white is a problem because he was a historical figure, an actual PERSON >_> Revisionist history is a problem too, but it's not the same problem as racism

 

[cricket chirps]

So can I just give a quick congratulations to Cory and Grey for creating an article that I believe now has more comments than any other on the Escapist?

Because, yea, I have to say congrats here. Hope this whole conversation doesn't get brought up to you guys at the Expo this year.

Edit: WOOT, just made it 35 pages long

 

[Madmonk12345]

Also, I've been considering something. If race doesn't matter, and you then change the race, isn't it purely an asthetic change? How I'm I suppose to relate to the character any better when everything else stays the same? It's like the dudes with tits thing when we talk about adding female characters.

Actually, thinking about it, who framed it a a matter of relatability in the first place? Wasn't it born out of game publishers (EA, Ubisoft(?)) arguing that the white straight male protagonist's was necessary because of its supposed need to appeal to a wider audience, as if skin color or gender made protagonists more or less relatable?

The immediate and most obvious rebuttal to make would be to flip it, ala "What about relatability for us women/POC/gay people?", and while such people may seem equally bad as the people they're arguing against now when we think about the irrelevance of skin color,gender,etc. to relatability, can we really blame them for not thinking up that stab at the idea first?

IOW, relatability was a red herring in the debate that many have yet to shake off. There are more important reasons to ask questions like "why is X character a man/white/straight/cis", like how it seems to be a default in the AAA industry. Would the story of Grand Theft Auto V be a better story if one of the 3 main characters were not white and male? Given how most protagonists in the AAA industry seems to be the result of the poisonous focus testing that seems to murder so many games, the idea that it wasn't thought about seems possible enough to consider asking the question at the very least.

Might they have a good reason for making all of the main characters male and straight? Sure! However, If they haven't thought about it, then maybe making one of the characters black could have interesting consequences. Suppose you wanted to make one character's story more difficult than the others, as a "hard mode" for the game. Police forces tend to have more suspicion of black people because of long reigning cultural assumptions. Making the cops racist in GTA V could provide that difficulty along with an interesting story based around that difficulty, and that at least should be considered. It tells a story I really don't see examples of in video games(Though I'd be happy to be wrong). Or, if it is completely irrelevant, then why choose that aesthetic in the first place? Why not allow people to role play as whoever they want?

Asking questions to these extents just makes stories better in their consideration, and handles the gender,ethnic, and sexual orientation based divide in main characters to boot.

 

[Steve Waltz]

The Zimmerman joke is about them killing a black person, not the murderers' race.

Oh, okay. So only the race of the person murdered matters.

This makes PERFECT sense. Never mind the fact that Trayvon tackled and tried to kill Zimmerman. Nooo, the only reason Zimmerman killed Trayvon was because Zimmerman was racist. Anyone who claims self-defense is racist. After all, it's impossible to be prejudice against whites and hispanics, right?

Um... What's your point? That stuff is 100% irrelevant to the "Zimmerman mode" joke.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

The edited comic makes fun of the black guy for betraying his own position that race isn't important. That makes no sense because the black guy never says race isn't important. He just throws that back in the other guy's face after the other guy said it.

Hhm...

"He's doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"

Tried several times to figure out what you're saying but it just doesn't make any sense to me. If something doesn't matter then it doesn't matter. The black guy is trying to lead the person he was talking with so he doesn't have to say "Race IS important." What the edited comic does is block off the leading question by continuing to substantiate that the race doesn't matter.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I don't understand your argument.

The edited comic makes fun of the black guy for betraying his own position that race isn't important. That makes no sense because the black guy never says race isn't important. He just throws that back in the other guy's face after the other guy said it.

I never said that the article was the proof, I said this article is pretty non biased and lays everything out.

Then why did you provide it, if it doesn't prove any of the assertions you make? Are you just trying to change the subject and hoping I'll drop the question?

Race either matters or it doesn't, you really can't have it both ways.

We're not talking about the strip any more, are we? Because the black dude in the strip wasn't trying to have it both ways. That's the people he was arguing with trying to do that; they're the ones saying race doesn't matter, so it therefore matters if a character turns black.

Huh? No, you have it totally backwards. The comic (or at least the opening of it) relies on you being aware of the shitstorms caused by things like Idris Elba being cast as Heimdall, and the rumor of Michael B. Jordan playing Johnny Storm. The people /against/ casting those actors as those characters (and similar situations with other characters in other movies) were upset about the race being swapped, the people who were /for/ it usually said something along the lines of "well the race doesn't matter anyway." The edit is poking fun about the way most of those people only seem to think that the race doesn't matter for /white/ characters, for minority characters it's suddenly very important.

Basically both the comic and the edit rely on you having some background knowledge about a certain subset of the shitstorms that have hit nerd culture in the last few years.

Edit: I do see where the confusion comes from, but I don't think he was supposed to be quoting the other guy's argument. I think he had either managed to get the other guy to concede that the race wasn't an important part of whatever character they were discussing, or he was just going with it for the sake of argument. It's definitely something you need prior knowledge to get.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

But yeah. We're in total agreement. And hey, it was even topical. Bonus points for us.

Are you being reasonable and tolerant in this thread? WTF! Stop ruining it for the rest of us!

Um . . . . um . . . .

We were saying it was okay for an originally white character to have a black incarnation, so that makes us race traitors and hypocrites?


Is that better?

That is acceptable.

Also, I've been considering something. If race doesn't matter, and you then change the race, isn't it purely an asthetic change? How I'm I suppose to relate to the character any better when everything else stays the same? It's like the dudes with tits thing when we talk about adding female characters.

Well, let me say as a:
1:female

2:lesbian

3:asian-white mix leaning heavy o the asian

4:living in the southern United States. Ever had someone utter something racist at you as you walked by them?

5:in an area where there was 1 other remotely asian person my age, the rest being largely white or black. I'm talking in a school of 1500, there were 2 people that could be called asian, and after transferring to another school being the OLNY asian in the entire school of several hundred.
Even having grown up I only see asian people working in asian restaraunts. It's weird.

6:in a heavily christian state where, litterally you can't drive 2 miles in some areas without running into a church, some right across the street from another. They make starbucks look modest. And I'm not religious. <.<
(In short there's probably not a word to describe just how much of a minorty I am. Mind you this isn't a grab at pity, it's to show my position better.)

I can safely say that one should NEVER EVER EVER EVER EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVEEEEEEER underestimate the power of inclusion. Even something token can boost a person's morale!

Way I figure it, if you (Aimed at Devs) can cater to minority, do it. Not because you have to, but because you want to, and no one should try and stop you. After all, we're all people, we're all aesthetically different, aren't we?

 

[JimB]

"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"

If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?

Tried several times to figure out what you're saying but it just doesn't make any sense to me.

I guess we'll have to leave it there, then, since I cannot think of a simpler way to put this.

Huh? No, you have it totally backwards. The comic (or at least the opening of it) relies on you being aware of the shitstorms caused by things like Idris Elba being cast as Heimdall, and the rumor of Michael B. Jordan playing Johnny Storm.

That might be the case of the edited comics people have been slinging about, but it's pretty clearly not the case in the issue of Critical Miss, where the black guy is arguing in favor of changing some dude's race and people are refusing to on the grounds that it doesn't matter before backpedaling and explaining why it matters. I mention that because I wonder if we've been talking about different things this whole time, or what.

 

[EvilRoy]

"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"

If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?

Think about it this way:

"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why should I go back and redo this modelling/drawing/writing work to make him black?"

Its one thing if the conversation is in reference to a concept phase where someone could conceivably change any detail at any time and not really have to redo any work, but once ink is on paper you are asking a person to change a bunch of already done work to accommodate a change to something that has already been defined as not mattering. The comic - either the edit or the original - is not clear what stage the idea is in. Furthermore making the change even at the concept phase could be seen as condescending. "Sure fine whatever I'll make him black if it'll make you stop whining about it, now shut up I need to work on the parts of the story that actually do matter."

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"

If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?

Tried several times to figure out what you're saying but it just doesn't make any sense to me.

I guess we'll have to leave it there, then, since I cannot think of a simpler way to put this.

Huh? No, you have it totally backwards. The comic (or at least the opening of it) relies on you being aware of the shitstorms caused by things like Idris Elba being cast as Heimdall, and the rumor of Michael B. Jordan playing Johnny Storm.

That might be the case of the edited comics people have been slinging about, but it's pretty clearly not the case in the issue of Critical Miss, where the black guy is arguing in favor of changing some dude's race and people are refusing to on the grounds that it doesn't matter before backpedaling and explaining why it matters. I mention that because I wonder if we've been talking about different things this whole time, or what.

"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"

If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?

Think about it this way:

"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why should I go back and redo this modelling/drawing/writing work to make him black?"

Its one thing if the conversation is in reference to a concept phase where someone could conceivably change any detail at any time and not really have to redo any work, but once ink is on paper you are asking a person to change a bunch of already done work to accommodate a change to something that has already been defined as not mattering. The comic - either the edit or the original - is not clear what stage the idea is in. Furthermore making the change even at the concept phase could be seen as condescending. "Sure fine whatever I'll make him black if it'll make you stop whining about it, now shut up I need to work on the parts of the story that actually do matter."

Except you have the starting phrase wrong. It's an obvious reference to the arguments over things like, again, Idris Elba as Heimdall, where one side would say "they shouldn't cast a black actor, because the character has always been white." And the other side says "But the race was never a big part of the character, so why does it matter if he's black now?" Then this comic jumps in halfway through the argument, where the guy with the second position has apparently managed to get the guy with the first position to concede that the race didn't matter.

Why am I so sure of this? Because I actually follow the discussions on these forums, and this whole comic is an obvious satire of some of the really common ones.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"

If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?[/quote]

I wasn't aware we were fighting about it.

 

[EvilRoy]

Snip - Quote tag issues I think -

Except you have the starting phrase wrong. It's an obvious reference to the arguments over things like, again, Idris Elba as Heimdall, where one side would say "they shouldn't cast a black actor, because the character has always been white." And the other side says "But the race was never a big part of the character, so why does it matter if he's black now?" Then this comic jumps in halfway through the argument, where the guy with the second position has apparently managed to get the guy with the first position to concede that the race didn't matter.

Why am I so sure of this? Because I actually follow the discussions on these forums, and this whole comic is an obvious satire of some of the really common ones.

From my perspective it doesn't really matter where the starting point of the conversation was, the person who wants the item changed is wrong and creating extra work for no reason. As I interpret the conversation the person we actually see talking is requesting the change, you on the other hand feel you are able to accurately extrapolate backwards to the starting point of the conversation. The difference? I choose to base my statements on what I can see as it is, you seek to interpret the situation based on your understanding of the context of the website. One is not necessarily better than the other, but they can't really reconcile.

 

[ThreeName]

So can I just give a quick congratulations to Cory and Grey for creating an article that I believe now has more comments than any other on the Escapist?

Because, yea, I have to say congrats here. Hope this whole conversation doesn't get brought up to you guys at the Expo this year.

*cough*

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.166417-Old-Games-you-remember-playing-but-cant-remember-the-name-of

Not quite, champ

 

[Epicspoon]

*Casually strolls into thread, holding Banhammer*

Hey guys, what's going on in this thread? Oh? Weatherman calls for a shitstorm?

I'll stick around and watch, you know, just in case.

*Insert comment violating every single rule here*

 

[Warachia]

"He doesn't need to be black because his race doesn't matter."

"If his race doesn't matter, why not make the character black?"

"If his race doesn't matter, why make the character black?"

If his race doesn't matter, then why do you care enough to fight about it?

I'm not sure that it's so much them not caring but still fighting for it, and more that they want to know why anybody cares enough to make the change in the first place if it doesn't matter.

I'm in the same boat as Specter, so maybe you can help me understand why some people change it simply for the sake of changing it.

If you said that you wanted to change a character to a black character because you think there aren't enough non-white super heroes on the big screen and you're using it to represent a minority then it would make sense, if you say that you're doing it because they were the best candidate for the role then skin colour really wouldn't matter, but changing it for literally no reasoning besides changing it makes no sense, and that's why some people (including me) are confused.