WHITE GUY DEFENSE FORCE GO!

[-Dragmire-]

Oh Jesus. If this thread doesn't turn into seven pages of arguing I'm going to be really disappointed.

Omega, alpha, and beta males. The Twilight Sparkle plushy was inspired, as was the fedora.

Sounds like quite the underestimation at this point...

I take it you're not disappointed?

 

[Overquoted]

Well no I accuse you of wanting white genocide because of your dismissal of white people who are actually oppressed and under attack but who receive no international aid or support because of the color of their skin.
I'm not a victim, but there are people who are victims and my race has the very real potential to become victims.
In 1900 whites made up 36% of the human race, in 2013 they make up 7%. The way trends are going, white people will soon be racial minorities in their native countries, meaning they will be a minority open to abuse. Meanwhile the media is promoting whites as the devil incarnate who deserve no sympathy or protection, and unilaterally deserve whatever they get.
Can you see how that might go badly? Can you possibly fathom what kind of situation that might create? Not to mention it's all lies, from the slave trade to colonialism. Arabs traded African slaves, where is the outrage against them? Moors colonized Spain, Rome colonized Britain, where are our reparations?

"The consequences of what racism spawned", so first off, whites are solely responsible for all racism, and second, if a little white girl who never harmed anyone is raped and killed by a black in South Africa, that is "a consequence of what racism spawned" because her ancestors were racists, is that correct?

You're a real piece of work.

Oh, the laugh I got off this. You are a piece of work yourself.

I'll take your figures as a given, though I have my doubts they're correct.

A) Declining white populations has little to do with genocide. Post-industrial societies have declining birth rates. At the same time, intermarriage between groups is increasing (meaning more people descend from multiple ethnicities) and the declining child and maternity mortality rates mean the fertility rates in developing countries (primarily non-white) have been rising for decades.

B) Why should any racial group be a majority? You assume white people will become a minority, but that's not true. WGDF people in my state (Texas) are crying about becoming a minority when all that's happened so far is that the division is eliminating a majority. In other words, no one group will have above 50% representation. We'll all be minorities.

C) You seem to think that your majority is the only thing keeping non-whites from hurting you. I really, really doubt that. And it's pretty offensive for you to suggest it.

D) Because Group A did something bad excuses Group B from doing the same thing on a much more massive and sustained level? You go back far enough, every single person on the planet is descended from a slave. Is everyone still dealing with those effects? Nah. Are more recent slave-descendants in America dealing with them? Yep.

E) I'm a woman. Where's my bloody reparations from you? >:|

Few people are asking for reparations. They are asking that the current and ongoing problems (that originated with slavery but are not caused by slavery but by racism) be fixed. That's your problem. You see anything to do with racism as reparation for slavery instead of a reaction against current racism. Diversionary tactics or you genuinely don't believe racism is still a problem.

 

[Dansrage]

I'll take a stab at this

Well thank you for actually addressing my points and meeting me on even ground Bobleponge, I appreciate that.

I believe the Native American question is one Whites will eventually face, they saw mass immigration of a culture hostile to their own, and a race that reproduced faster than they could. Their culture was overridden and their country ceased to reflect their values and their history. Now Native Americans are in a sorry state, culture is on the decline, they're largely ignored by everyone, they're seeing poverty and strife.

I see this as a result of the process that has begun in Europe and America. I'm just going to argue for Europe at this point, because while America has a large white population, it is a country founded by immigrants and it is not a native land to whites, what I'm talking about applied more to native Europeans, so I'll concede the point of America.

America is a good example however because of the rapidly changing demographics, and I disagree that there is not a history of black-on-white violence, in the US alone blacks commit several times the amount of racially motivated attacks against whites than whites do against blacks, and the interracial rape levels favor black on white not by a factor of a few, but of tens of thousands. In Europe immigrants attacks against natives, mostly by religious Muslims, are absolutely rampant.
Just because something doesn't get media attention doesn't make it not true.

While mixing isn't forced by any means, it's certainly being encouraged, even coerced, white women in Scandinavia are often accused of racism if they don't want to date African or Asian men and the social pressure is strong.

I don't believe the race has to be pure, not in the Hitlerian sense, but when statistics show that in a couple of hundred years there may be no ethnically British people living in Britain, or no ethnically Swedish people left in Sweden, you have a problem. I believe it is a problem that doesn't need to exist, because immigration is happening mostly for political and social purposes. I don't believe diversity is good when I see things like Arab Muslim immigrants from Pakistan grooming underage British girls, or an African immigrants gang-raping Swedes, or French men being beaten by immigrants for being white. This is not an exchange of culture.

I just find it strange that I'm so often told to feel terrible and take personal responsibility for what people I never met, and probably am not even directly related to, did hundreds of years ago when people are doing far worse today, and that in the same breath I should feel as if nothing those same people accomplished is something to be proud of.

 

[kklawm]

White people's culture.

What culture exactly covers all white skinned people of the world? By the time you add in everyone all over the world with white skin the only combined culture you have left is that they eat, sleep and defecate. Culture is usually classified using geography, for this very reason.

 

[Dansrage]

It's amazing how little you think of everyone else that you'd think they can't see your blatantly loaded questions.

Ok whatever, I'm done talking to you now, I've found someone who is actually willing to have a discussion.

 

[Jamz]

I accidentally deleted this text and I'm not going to copy/paste it because I think this will cause confusion and be pretty awesome

Fair enough. Guess I was just in a weird mood. Apologies.

 

[Overquoted]

....Fat brony dudes are only white? Ladies' men are only white? Man, you'd better inform the Latin Lovers and Players of that.

Never said that. But being "White Guy ****" pretty much makes them all white in the comic? You seem to actually have missed the whole point of my post. The point is, and i'll repeat, is that the only characteristic they all share is being white dudes. There is way too much emphasis on the fact they're all white dudes.

Of course they're all white dudes! But not all white dudes are WGDF.

Your point was that by including bronies, ladies' men and hipsters, Critical Miss was applying the WGDF trope to every white man. And my counter is that would only be true if those particular characters strictly white and not just obnoxious regardless of race. In other words, being WGDF means you're more likely to also be obnoxious in other areas.

If all WGDF's are white men...
And some bronies are WGDFs...
Are all white men and all bronies WGDFs?

This kind of question sometimes appears on IQ tests. Can you answer it correctly?

 

[kklawm]

Wait is the guy with the yellow fedora yahtzee?

No. It's apparently some jerky guy for Reddit or something. I'm not 100% on that, but that's what I've heard.

Also, you don't see Yahtzee in his hat that much now[sub](ZP doesn't really count)[/sub].

Oh thanks, I thought it might be yahtzee, which would be a rather hilarious reference.

 

[Dansrage]

White people's culture.

What culture exactly covers all white skinned people of the world? By the time you add in everyone all over the world with white skin the only combined culture you have left is that they eat, sleep and defecate. Culture is usually classified using geography, for this very reason.

Well I wouldn't say there is a 'white culture' exactly, perhaps I shouldn't use that term, but the various white ethnicities, for example French, German, Swedish, Russian, Belgian, Irish, whatever you want, all have their own unique and rather fragile cultures and traditions I believe deserve to be preserved. Now, things change over time, don't mistake me for being opposed to change, and many old cultures have been lost to time, many an ethnicity has been lost, but we still remember and value them, we still teach their history and in a lot of cases preserve and admire their monuments.

This comes back to the question of: why do we value such things? Why do we preserve old monuments, why do we still celebrate old heroes and old events? Why celebrate the end of a war that is over, or a revolution that took place centuries ago? Because the accumulation of events and history makes up the identity of a country and it's people today, we are a product of the actions of our ancestors, their accomplishments and their failures.

I believe that importing immigrants who have no respect, or even contempt, for our history, culture, traditions and heritage, is inherently destructive.

 

[Shingro]

My problem isn't with a position, it's with an attitude. The WGDF quite obviously represent a small, but vocal, subset of largely white males who respond to any perceived threat to their cultural dominance with hyperbole and hostility. They also tend to interpret criticism of one sub group as criticism of an entire culture. In that respect, yes, you have proved my point.

Oh no, none of that now. At no point did you start restricting yourself to 'a small, but vocal minority.' You started at 'why can't this character be black' a question which draws all sorts of question about narrative, art and artistic licence and then you just kept expanding the net. You threw a MLP plus in there, you threw the stereotypical 'fat dude' in there, you brought a little hipster in you brought a little 'hittin on the ladies bro' in there. You even brought the whole frikken Zimmerman thing in there. All your actions expanded your net, not restricted it.

Creators can make what they want, they can insult who they want. This is your prerogative as the artist.

But for god sakes. DO NOT politician this, don't 'walk it back 'honest guys I just ment to make fun of the super mega assholes really truly.

Stand up for your work or apologize for letting it get out of hand because of your other opinions but jesus don't pretend you didn't cast a pretty wide ass net.

It's an obvious parody of a certain type of behavior. If you don't engage in it, then it doesn't apply to you. If you do, well...

See but you don't get to do that. You don't get to put out a thing and say "You shouldn't be offended unless you're my target" You especially don't get to say "x is my target any any other interpretation is wrong." "This comic isn't FOR you" It's even worse because your position appears to be "If you're offended you MUST be my target."

Especially when you add identifying marks that *specifically* tie to other groups. As it stands you tied in a good 3 obvious aversion fads in there and not a one deserves it.

Bronies do not deserve this comic
Bros do not deserve this comic
Hipsters do not deserve this comic


Like it or not you *very specifically* called out these groups and tied them directly to a specific awful brand of behavior. I can't even fathom the reason you would do so if you were going for 'an obvious parody of a type of behavior.' Nor can I see how you could claim you didn't. 'Did not!' isn't exactly the most impressive defense. The comic's right there, if you put a communist hammer and sickle on one of their chests who would you be calling out? What would that imply and who would have right to take offense to it? This isn't a hard leap of logic. Christ I don't even self identify with any of those groups and I'm still pretty offended by it. It's just a really nasty ugly thing to link to any group without VERY good reason, and frankly, I can't see how you could have it.


I think nearly 1000 posts of discussion and argument means whatever you can say about it "Obvious" is not one of them. If you're in the right on this you should be able to say something more. Don't sit on the broken vase and say you didn't do it. Man up to it and defend your artistic choices, or apologize for letting your own personal stuff get in the way.

Or you know what? Just go the other way, declare that every single person who is offended is CLEARLY a racist asshole who is only worried about cultural domination. Say it loud and say it proud. There's no grey, there's no one offended by method, there's no one offended from clear associations, there's no friends of groups who were called out, there's no debate fans and there's no social philosophers, there's no black people offended by trivializing what it takes to make a good black character (those posters are probably lying.) Say it. You made no mistakes, you were focused like a laser. If you're not with us you're against us. Every person who is pissed is just a white racist asshole.

Say it.

 

[Vegosiux]

Your point was that by including bronies, ladies' men and hipsters, Critical Miss was applying the WGDF trope to every white man.

To me, his point seemed to be more like "We have a fat, likely love-starved brony with a victim complex, a self-absorbed macho Casanova-wannabe and a fedora-wearing hipster who thinks he's above everyone. Their behavior is problematic because they exhibit victim complex, a disturbing level of arrogance and have their heads so far up their own asses that they're right back on their shoulders. Why is them all being male and white even relevant to all that?"

But well, that's how I understood it at least.

 

[Dansrage]

Your point was that by including bronies, ladies' men and hipsters, Critical Miss was applying the WGDF trope to every white man.

To me, his point seemed to be more like "We have a fat, likely love-starved brony with a victim complex, a self-absorbed macho Casanova-wannabe and a fedora-wearing hipster who thinks he's above everyone. Their behavior is problematic because they exhibit victim complex, a disturbing level of arrogance and have their heads so far up their own asses that they're right back on their shoulders. Why is them all being male and white even relevant to all that?"

But well, that's how I understood it at least.

Well, the fact that they were called the White Guy Defense Force might be a place to start searching for clues.

 

[Shingro]

....Fat brony dudes are only white? Ladies' men are only white? Man, you'd better inform the Latin Lovers and Players of that.

Never said that. But being "White Guy ****" pretty much makes them all white in the comic? You seem to actually have missed the whole point of my post. The point is, and i'll repeat, is that the only characteristic they all share is being white dudes. There is way too much emphasis on the fact they're all white dudes.

Of course they're all white dudes! But not all white dudes are WGDF.

Your point was that by including bronies, ladies' men and hipsters, Critical Miss was applying the WGDF trope to every white man. And my counter is that would only be true if those particular characters strictly white and not just obnoxious regardless of race. In other words, being WGDF means you're more likely to also be obnoxious in other areas.

If all WGDF's are white men...
And some bronies are WGDFs...
Are all white men and all bronies WGDFs?

This kind of question sometimes appears on IQ tests. Can you answer it correctly?

But like it or not he *specifically* named those groups in his comic, these aren't real people with casual items along with them, they've got specific identifying marks tying them to the groups. The art didn't fall onto the page when he opened his bag, it was willingly put there with intent. What was that intent? If you draw someone in a comic and draw a KKK hood on them are you implying nothing? Pretty much EVERY political comic ever made disagrees with your claim.

 

[Jamz]

White people's culture.

What culture exactly covers all white skinned people of the world? By the time you add in everyone all over the world with white skin the only combined culture you have left is that they eat, sleep and defecate. Culture is usually classified using geography, for this very reason.

Well I wouldn't say there is a 'white culture' exactly, perhaps I shouldn't use that time, but the various white ethnicities, for example French, German, Swedish, Russian, Belgian, Irish, whatever you want, all have their own unique and rather fragile cultures and traditions I believe deserve to be preserved. Now, things change over time, don't mistake me for being opposed to change, and many old cultures have been lost to time, many an ethnicity has been lost, but we still remember and value them, we still teach their history and in a lot of cases preserve and admire their monuments.

his comes back to the question of: why do we value such things? Why do we preserve old monuments, why do we still celebrate old heroes and old events? Why celebrate the end of a war that is over, or a revolution that took place centuries ago? Because the accumulation of events and history makes up the identity of a country and it's people today, we are a product of the actions of our ancestors, their accomplishments and their failures.

I believe that importing immigrants who have no respect, or even contempt, for our history, culture, traditions and heritage, is inherently destructive.

Assuming that what you say is correct, then how would one go about stopping immigration? Would you enact a test, lower the immigration levels, or use some other way? I know that a great deal of American innovation is (was) the result of large-scale immigration of entrepreneurs and other talent, because this can be seen very heavily in startup businesses in silicon valley (I can try to find a source if necessary). The real question is whether or not you're talking about ending all immigration at all levels or if you want to specifically target unskilled/illegal immigration. I think that answering that question is a very important thing.

I respect what you say about identifying problems based on statistics about large groups (IE racial, social, etc.) in a given geographic area, but it seems to me that acknowledging those facts and forcing them against the American nature of the individual are constantly at odds. It is my believe that this is the biggest problem going on right now. Blacks commit more crime against whites than vice versa, as supported by the Department of Justice' findings. But is that the result of a different culture or more of a result of economic hardship left behind because of previous policies limiting their ability to climb the social and economic ladder.

In other words, I think the problem is more about the economic class and its ability to affect the outlook of people moreso than their ethnic background, at least in the United States of America. What are your thoughts?

 

[Vegosiux]

Well, the fact that they were called the White Guy Defense Force might be a place to start searching for clues.

You got that backwards. A group would call themselves that if they were already white guys to begin with. The name of their group is a consequence of the fact that they're white guys, not the reason for it. Actually, in this case it's not even a consequence, it's just a more flashy way of saying "there three douches are all male and white".

And as such, that doesn't address generals3's point.