WHITE GUY DEFENSE FORCE GO!

Hover Hand Mode

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RoonMian said:
Actually, I think the ones responsible are the guy who came up with the whole "stand your ground"-law idea, the guy who came up with the idea of neighborhood watches and taking the monopoly on violence away from the police and general gun culture.
There's nothing wrong with the idea of the neighborhood watch aside from the occasional racist who will report black people to the police for no reason (which is coincidentally on-topic). Being the captain of the neighborhood watch doesn't mean that you're now a citizen cop. It means that you report things to the police and end your involvement there. You do not follow a "suspicious" person. You do not engage with a "suspicious" person. You do not carry a firearm while following or approaching a "suspicious" person. Zimmerman is, perhaps, the dumbest and most reckless person in the history of neighborhood watch outside of fiction.

thenoblitt said:
Lets have a large black man attack you and try and steal your fire arm, and lets see what happens? Also he known for violence, a drug dealer, and was suspended from school for fighting, also he initiated the fight, after running away. Lets see what you do, are you gonna just let him shoot you?
Why's it gotta be a large black man?
 

thenoblitt

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Hover Hand Mode said:
RoonMian said:
Actually, I think the ones responsible are the guy who came up with the whole "stand your ground"-law idea, the guy who came up with the idea of neighborhood watches and taking the monopoly on violence away from the police and general gun culture.
There's nothing wrong with the idea of the neighborhood watch aside from the occasional racist who will report black people to the police for no reason (which is coincidentally on-topic). Being the captain of the neighborhood watch doesn't mean that you're now a citizen cop. It means that you report things to the police and end your involvement there. You do not follow a "suspicious" person. You do not engage with a "suspicious" person. You do not carry a firearm while following or approaching a "suspicious" person. Zimmerman is, perhaps, the dumbest and most reckless person in the history of neighborhood watch outside of fiction.
2nd amendment allows everyone bar criminals, the right to bear arms. The 911 call was doctored by news outlets, and were fired accordingly. What actually happened, is that he approached Trayvon, Trayvon ran off, and then the officer told him not to pursue, then Trayvon came running back.
 

thenoblitt

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Hover Hand Mode said:
RoonMian said:
Actually, I think the ones responsible are the guy who came up with the whole "stand your ground"-law idea, the guy who came up with the idea of neighborhood watches and taking the monopoly on violence away from the police and general gun culture.
There's nothing wrong with the idea of the neighborhood watch aside from the occasional racist who will report black people to the police for no reason (which is coincidentally on-topic). Being the captain of the neighborhood watch doesn't mean that you're now a citizen cop. It means that you report things to the police and end your involvement there. You do not follow a "suspicious" person. You do not engage with a "suspicious" person. You do not carry a firearm while following or approaching a "suspicious" person. Zimmerman is, perhaps, the dumbest and most reckless person in the history of neighborhood watch outside of fiction.

thenoblitt said:
Lets have a large black man attack you and try and steal your fire arm, and lets see what happens? Also he known for violence, a drug dealer, and was suspended from school for fighting, also he initiated the fight, after running away. Lets see what you do, are you gonna just let him shoot you?
Why's it gotta be a large black man?
Because thats what Trayvon was. Thats what the whole situation was about, that's why hes black, cause thats what happened.
 

Hover Hand Mode

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There are several things wrong with calling Trayvon a "large black man". He was black, sure, but I wouldn't define him as "large". He was pretty skinny but made up for it by being tall. That hardly makes him an automatically threatening presence. My nephew is freakishly tall and one of the nicest kids you'll ever know. Please don't assume things based on a person's height. And Trayvon wasn't a "man". He was 17. Legally, still a kid.

All that aside, why would somebody have to be attacked by a "large black man" to understand Zimmerman's side of things? I know the answer to that is "because he's racist". But I don't share those racial fears. I can't relate to Zimmerman.
 
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NewClassic said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
If you don't agree with these people, they caricature the shit out of you anyway (it's easier to be completely obnoxious and fight values you assume are held, rather than values expressed)... this kinda thing I fear isn't going to help any.

I totally look forward to the constant referencing of this comic to devalue any and every opinion that doesn't contribute to the snarky echo-chamber that is the escapist.
I just have to wonder how much of it is the issues being misunderstood, rather than the issues being implied. The mindset seems to me to take offense at the comic as a whole. A collective attribution to a joke targeting a specific. In the same way some are misreading the comic in casting too wide a net, so too are its defenders reading too wide a rhetoric. It seems more likely that the "If you don't like it, don't read it" crowd is reading collective offense where some are expressing targeted displeasure. Proof, I think, that the flaws themselves lie as much in human nature as they do in rhetoric or expression. Language is still imperfect, despite its practice, so they'll always be misunderstandings. Either from a comic that perhaps is a little too liberal with its humor, or perhaps in those who feel its defense deserves the same vehemence perceived, even though there was less projected.

As for the echo-chamber, I think that's just a flaw of communities. The longer one exists, the more a collective consciousness seems to form. Same reason half of reddit is just subreddits calling other subreddits circlejerky, then in the same breath, creating their own shorthand of memes and references, which earns them the very moniker they were made to mock. So too, it seems, forums have that same poison. Just the nature of people, the desire to fit in makes them very well-suited for fitting in, often at the expense of variety.

Doesn't mean everyone is that way, though.
I think that's fairly insightful, NewClassic... And obviously it's not the case that everyone is like that.

It's not just the content of the comic though, it's the location of it's publishing. Anyone who is not implicitly complicit with the trending views of the forum knows that this is going to fuel a heap of dishonesty that can and will be directed at them... None of which will be conducive to open and interesting discussion.

For the record, I'm not offended by the comic. I think it's douchey, sure... But I'm not offended. What irks me is really the dismissive attitude that I know it'll encourage. Exemplified by the "if you don't like this, it says the world about you" crowd, who are very dismissive despite being thoroughly annoyed by what they consider to be dismissive attitudes...

I won't bore you any longer.

Edit - I think what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't feel like an open discussion forum when it comes to these kinds of issues. It feels like an incestuous orgy of idea (yes singular) that everyone is mad at you (me) for interrupting. I am getting bolder with my tone and language because I'm starting to not care whether I'm welcome here anymore, it's just a drop in the ocean of snark & rudeness as far as I can tell.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Read the comic, found it... not funny. It's just... Not really funny to me, it's just sort of there.

I did however find the edit rather funny.


I think it's the fact that it doesn't even explain who the three WDF guys are that does it for me. Suddenly! Power Rangers!
 

La Kias

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Trilligan said:
La Kias said:
I didn't say that. in fact Samuel L. Jackson did the role very well but it wasn't about race here, it was the right actor for the job and Samuel L. Jackson did it beautifully. Furthermore Ultimate Nick Fury was designed to look like Samuel L. Jackson before he was given the role in the films, so there was a black iteration of the character which keeps within the canon.
I'm fully aware of all of that (see my last post).

It does serve to point out that there is nothing inherently WRONG with swapping out one race for another in any given character - even an established one. When they swapped Nick Fury's race from white to black going from the original continuity to the Ultimates universe, they did no harm to the character whatsoever.

Change is not inherently bad. Diversity is not inherently bad. Asking for a greater variety of videogame protagonists is not inherently bad. But the way some people around here are arguing, it sounds like it's a crime against humanity to consider anything that isn't a white male.
Then glad we agree :D
 

thenoblitt

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Hover Hand Mode said:
There are several things wrong with calling Trayvon a "large black man". He was black, sure, but I wouldn't define him as "large". He was pretty skinny but made up for it by being tall. That hardly makes him an automatically threatening presence. My nephew is freakishly tall and one of the nicest kids you'll ever know. Please don't assume things based on a person's height. And Trayvon wasn't a "man". He was 17. Legally, still a kid.

All that aside, why would somebody have to be attacked by a "large black man" to understand Zimmerman's side of things? I know the answer to that is "because he's racist". But I don't share those racial fears. I can't relate to Zimmerman.
When someone is 17, whether or not he's legally a kid, he was selling drugs and starting fights, and had several gang related tattoos. I'm sure if you called him a kid he'd correct you. Also he was not that skinny. http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&sa=N&rlz=2C1GIGM_enUS0536US0536&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=979&tbm=isch&tbnid=sj2cR3ZzmwTCDM:&imgrefurl=http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/judge-to-rule-in-morning-about-trayvon-fighting-texts-after-contentious-nightime-hearing/&docid=JFxVxMiNY0jbXM&imgurl=http://legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Trayvon-Martin-cell-phone-photo-of-himself.jpg&w=635&h=476&ei=M_Y1UpbePKeYigLCsIGABQ&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:47,s:0,i:239&iact=rc&page=2&tbnh=169&tbnw=226&start=33&ndsp=46&tx=88&ty=52
 

JimB

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thenoblitt said:
Please look into the case more before you spout this misinformed opinion off.
I have looked into it. If you actually want me to change my opinion, I suggest presenting me with the evidence you insist is there, since as it is you're playing he-said-she-said and asking me to take your word over my own. This is particularly unlikely to work when you declare yourself the winner at the end of this post, as if it's a contest.

RoonMian said:
I think the ones responsible are the guy who came up with the whole "stand your ground" law idea, the guy who came up with the idea of neighborhood watches and taking the monopoly on violence away from the police and general gun culture.
I agree all those things are contributory factors, but none of them remove Zimmerman's responsibility not to chase someone he apparently thinks is a dangerous criminal as if he, Zimmerman, is somehow qualified to deal with such a threat.

thenoblitt said:
Let's have a large black man attack you and try to steal your firearm, and see what happens.
I do not grant your premise that I would be foolish enough to provoke such a situation in the first place.

thenoblitt said:
Also, he was known for violence, a drug dealer, and was suspended from school for fighting.
Jesus Christ, are you sitting here telling me that punching a kid in school, selling a few grams of weed, and getting suspended from school justify fatally shooting a child? I've done two of those three things; do I get to live, or shall I report to the firing squad? And if I deserve to live, which of the three of those crimes is the tipping point after which a child too young to vote has proven himself too much a detriment to society to deserve to continue drawing breath and pumping blood?
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion, but I thought I'd post this picture. This thread, prior to this post, has exactly 1138 posts in it. Those who know their Star Wars history will know why seeing that made me happy. Those who don't: it's an in-joke put into a bunch of movies George Lucas had something to do with, based on the title of his first film, THX 1138. Having it pop up as the number of posts in a discussion thread is /exactly/ the kind of tiny background detail it usually gets slipped in as. If only this meant that the Star Wars universe was real, and we were a part of it...

 

JimB

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Specter Von Baren said:
I did however find the edit rather funny.

That edit really confuses me. Why do people keep acting like the black dude (whose name, sadly, I have forgotten, if ever I knew it at all) ever said race doesn't matter? Or even implied it? He pretty obviously didn't, since he thinks this or that character ought to be black. That edit is mocking him for hypocritically betraying a position that isn't even his own, but rather that of the people arguing him. I don't get it.
 

ninjaRiv

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Is it just me... Or has Grey gone from a genuinely funny writer to a boring, preachy writer who forgot what comedy is? I mean, I get that plenty of people find this strip, and most of the previous "preachy" ones, funny but I don't see why.

I don't know if it bothers me because the internet seems overly cynical and shitty lately or if maybe I just don't care for this kind of "humour" any more, or what...

Anyway, Corey's art is fantastic as always.
 

thenoblitt

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JimB said:
thenoblitt said:
Please look into the case more before you spout this misinformed opinion off.
I have looked into it. If you actually want me to change my opinion, I suggest presenting me with the evidence you insist is there, since as it is you're playing he-said-she-said and asking me to take your word over my own. This is particularly unlikely to work when you declare yourself the winner at the end of this post, as if it's a contest.

RoonMian said:
I think the ones responsible are the guy who came up with the whole "stand your ground" law idea, the guy who came up with the idea of neighborhood watches and taking the monopoly on violence away from the police and general gun culture.
I agree all those things are contributory factors, but none of them remove Zimmerman's responsibility not to chase someone he apparently thinks is a dangerous criminal as if he, Zimmerman, is somehow qualified to deal with such a threat.

thenoblitt said:
Let's have a large black man attack you and try to steal your firearm, and see what happens.
I do not grant your premise that I would be foolish enough to provoke such a situation in the first place.

thenoblitt said:
Also, he was known for violence, a drug dealer, and was suspended from school for fighting.
Jesus Christ, are you sitting here telling me that punching a kid in school, selling a few grams of weed, and getting suspended from school justify fatally shooting a child? I've done two of those three things; do I get to live, or shall I report to the firing squad? And if I deserve to live, which of the three of those crimes is the tipping point after which a child too young to vote has proven himself too much a detriment to society to deserve to continue drawing breath and pumping blood?
Why doesn't anyone understand that TRAYVON MARTIN TRIED TO UNHOLSTER AND TAKE GEORGE ZIMMERMANS GUN, THATS RIGHT THERE IS GROUNDS ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THEY ARE GOING TO SHOOT YOU. HAD HE BEEN GOD DAMN 30 NO ONE WOULD HAVE CARED, A 17 IS MORE CAPABLE THEN PEOPLE GIVE CREDIT, HE WASN'T SOME KID HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING. STOP BEING SO IGNORANT.


http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/13/george-zimmerman-found-not-guilty-in-trayvon-martin-murder-trial/

here is a decent post that isn't to biased, laying everything out flat, it wasn't even a racial crime, the only person being racist was trayvon calling him a whitey and a cracker.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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JimB said:
Specter Von Baren said:
I did however find the edit rather funny.

That edit really confuses me. Why do people keep acting like the black dude (whose name, sadly, I have forgotten, if ever I knew it at all) ever said race doesn't matter? Or even implied it? He pretty obviously didn't, since he thinks this or that character ought to be black. That edit is mocking him for hypocritically betraying a position that isn't even his own, but rather that of the people arguing him. I don't get it.
Don't know if it works that way. If the black guy[footnote]I'm not sure if he /did/ have a name -- the text at the bottom of the comic kind of implies he was created for the strip, unless he was some minor character from really early on, back when Scary Penny and that bear still existed[/footnote] thinks race /does/ matter, it makes him kind of racist himself. Typically the pro-side to the argument over whether it's okay to change the race of established characters is based in the whole idea of race only mattering if it's intrinsic to the character (So for example, no white Martin Luther King, and no black Abraham Lincoln. No Irish Magneto or white Luke Cage, either, for that matter), and therefore it's okay to do it with characters whose race wasn't a big deal to begin with. It's often used as a not-so-subtle way of implying anyone who takes issue with such a change (and therefore thinks race /does/ matter) is racist. Which then begs the question of why there's such resistance to the resistance, if it doesn't matter, as implied in the edited comic. If Grey had the black guy taking the position that race did, in fact, matter, the comic would make less sense, because that's not usually the position people take when they're trying to defend a race swapped character. I mean I'm sure it's been done, it's just not common.
 

Amir Kondori

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madwarper said:
JimB said:
In a conflict he created by stalking a teenager who had committed no crime.
a) Zimmerman stalked no one. Look up the word, or at the very least, my previous posts that spell out the word's definition.
b) Zimmerman becoming suspicious of, exiting his car, and following Martin is also not a crime.
which, as best I recall, it doesn't.
Then, I suggest you go back and watch the tapes of the trial.
I think you're confusing internet Caucasian defenders with hardcore neo-Nazis and Klansmen if you think they'd reject George Zimmerman and his tactics based on him only being half-white.
Yes, because getting your head beaten into the ground is quite an effective tactic.
I hate to delve into this mess but he only got out of the car to read a street sign to give his location to the 911 operator. He didn't get out to follow Martin. It was actually when he got out to read the sign that Martin had doubled back on him and jumped him.
 

Hover Hand Mode

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thenoblitt said:
TRAYVON MARTIN TRIED TO UNHOLSTER AND TAKE GEORGE ZIMMERMANS GUN
Neither Trayvon's DNA nor fingerprints were found on the gun. I don't even know where you're getting this claim from.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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JimB said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
The comic's supposed to be about white stereotypes (emphasis on white and stereotypes) racially discriminating against blacks. The Zimmerman thing breaks the pattern of the comic.
I think you're confusing internet Caucasian defenders with hardcore neo-Nazis and Klansmen if you think they'd reject George Zimmerman and his tactics based on him only being half-white.
I don't think I am. I don't think they would either.
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
I think what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't feel like an open discussion forum when it comes to these kinds of issues. It feels like an incestuous orgy of idea (yes singular) that everyone is mad at you (me) for interrupting. I am getting bolder with my tone and language because I'm starting to not care whether I'm welcome here anymore, it's just a drop in the ocean of snark & rudeness as far as I can tell.
Yeah, it's hard not to get a sense that if you're so far off-foot of popular opinion that every discussion seems more like an "us vs them" situation, rather than a meeting of minds or opinions or what have you. Personally, I don't participate in threads too often lately simply because everything I could say has already been said, or would get lost in the shuffle. My posting style died with the smaller populations, but I still like discussing stuff at times. Even if it's like trying to resolve a fire with a flamethrower at times.

I think that's just human nature. Even with some older users that I'd spent a lot of time with when I first joined. I've had some discussions with PurpleRain recently that are practically nothing like the discussions I had with him previously. He's quite different since moving to Canada, which I believe has changed in part because of who he's spent time with. People change, and as a community, a people can change to. Not always better, not always worse, but always different.

Still, sorry to hear you aren't enjoying the company so much recently.