Why are people making such a big deal of out of Quiet from MGS 5?
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honestly, i dont think people cared all that much. there was some criticism about her outfit prior to the game's release, but we now know just how heavily sexualized the character is. its just weird, imo.
the explanation for her attire was dumb, but i can deal. its fine, whatever. the male characters have been sexualized and even nude in past games... but then the game comes out and i swear i saw a new post every day or so on the front of the gaming subreddit of Quiet doing something absurdly sexual. first, it was her bending over in the helicopter and presenting her butt hole to Snake, then it was the random shower scene where there were a group of soldiers ogling her in the background, and then i see her seductively stripping and then playing in the rain.
ive got no problem with sexualized characters, but at least make it have some sort of point to it. Quiet is apparently a soldier, but one who just randomly decides to shower in bend over or shower in front of guys, and dance nearly naked in the rain.
ive seen plenty of other characters that are just as sexualized as Quiet, if not more so. Bayonetta, a couple of the ladies from Mass Effect, etc. but there was actually a logic to it. it served a purpose and was an integral part to the characters, rather than being random.
the explanation for her attire was dumb, but i can deal. its fine, whatever. the male characters have been sexualized and even nude in past games... but then the game comes out and i swear i saw a new post every day or so on the front of the gaming subreddit of Quiet doing something absurdly sexual. first, it was her bending over in the helicopter and presenting her butt hole to Snake, then it was the random shower scene where there were a group of soldiers ogling her in the background, and then i see her seductively stripping and then playing in the rain.
ive got no problem with sexualized characters, but at least make it have some sort of point to it. Quiet is apparently a soldier, but one who just randomly decides to shower in bend over or shower in front of guys, and dance nearly naked in the rain.
ive seen plenty of other characters that are just as sexualized as Quiet, if not more so. Bayonetta, a couple of the ladies from Mass Effect, etc. but there was actually a logic to it. it served a purpose and was an integral part to the characters, rather than being random.
Except it never really goes there again after the prologue, the whale is literally the high point as far as trippy stuff goes, discounting the prologue this is probably one of the more grounded MGS games out there. Once the psychic kid is done with the prologue his power level seems to take a nose dive, which is kind of unfortunate because a boss battle against psycho mantis and the man on fire could have been awesome.Elfgore said:
And I mean a real boss battle, not the lame pseudo battle you get in the game.
The boss enemies in this game are frankly kind of lame compared to the Cobras from 3, Foxhound from 1, and Dead Cell in 2, shit they even make the rather mediocre BB corps fights from 4 look better by comparison. There's really no excuse for that, psycho mantis was great in 1 and his cameo in 4 was funny, the final battle with him for this game was likely part of what was cut out of that final mission that never made it into this game.
I was all set for crazy antics after that prologue, but the whale was pretty much the last time you'll see anything that bonkers in the game, even the ending is pretty grounded and somber compared to the shit that happened in the hospital. It really almost feels like the remnants of a different game, or at least a very different direction the game might have gone in.
Oh, I'll agree that it's Kojima through and through, and it's the part of him I fucking hate. Kojima is at his best when he's more straightforward, or at least creates a nice balance between serious and silly. That's why MGS1 and 3 are his best games, because the ludicrous moments are sprinkled throughout while the story/character is still the driving force. With Quiet it's the opposite. Her "off-colourness" is what drives the character, while her characteristics are just there to make an occasional appearance. And this is done for no other purpose other than to get people's rocks off. There's not even a hint of sexuality to Quiet's character, nor is there some sort contridiction to show the character in a different and interesting light.stroopwafel said:
There is no intellectual approach to this, it's just Kojima making a straight-up flesh trophy. With MGS2 he at least tried to do something intellectual, eventhough he failed miserably, but with Quiet whatever attempt there was was crushed by dem titties.
I'd say that's a false equivalence, since in that scene, the sexualisation and objectification of Raiden was not the main focus. The camera doesn't linger on Raiden's body the way it does with Quiet and he never acts as if he's presenting his body for an audience. That cartwheel is something the player does of their own volition, but Quiet does her awkward stripper movements on her own, with the camera getting right up in there. Also, there's the whole issue of Quiet being the latest in a long line of objectified female characters, while men in video games are portrayed for the same effect far less often.CaptainMarvelous said:Ima say it again with the picture, while Quiet is over-sexualised, in MGS terms she's doing pretty alright considering...Kingjackl said:
... man, when having a weird catchphrase poem mantra is only the SECOND most embarassing thing you're known for, you KNOW your game got weird.
Again, it's the whole "oh, what did you expect" complaint that gets me, implying people shouldn't complain about a problem just because it's ongoing. I think people had every right to expect better because a) Kojimaa said there was a good reason for it, and b) MGS has actually done better in this regard. Meryl and the Boss showed us how to do badass, attractive female soldiers without falling into creepy territory, EVA showed how overt sexiness could be justified in the writing. Quiet doesn't do either, even if (from what I've heard) her actual characterization once you get beneath the fanservice is fairly solid.
I will barely swallow the excuse of Quiet having to breathe through her skin but I am not going to pretend the designers didn't first think of a half naked sniper girl and only then started to ponder ''Now how can we justify this?''
I think the controversy is just about how blatant it was where the priority lied.
I think the controversy is just about how blatant it was where the priority lied.
Because violence is okay to depict because people know that's wrong but we can't show tits because people MIGHT THINK THAT TITS ARE ACCEPTABLE!
It's neopuritan drivel disguised as a legitimate grievance, concern trolling at best.
Yes, the "excuse" for Quiet's attire is bad. Yes it was just an "excuse" to get he jubblies out on display. That's not the issue, the issue is why can't we accept bare flesh?
But why did Kojima need an excuse? And here's the part nobody is thinking about. Because you made him feel like he needed one. He made the art he wanted to make, he doesn't need an excuse to put tits in it and people hounded and hounded him for it. So he came up with one, and because you like the way the world looks from your horse on high you still hounded him. He shouldn't have had to come up with an excuse and you forced it out of him, his only mistake was realizing you'd never be satisfied and not ignoring your moaning and whining.
I've heard it said that young girls with body issues might not be comfortable with that kind of display. Okay, that's legitimate, I'll grant that. But until someone duct tapes a young girl to a seat and forces her to play MGSV I'm afraid all you should do is let the young girls know there's a possibility that they might be made uncomfortable (Uncomfortable! My word, fetch the vapors!) and move on.
I've heard it argued that Quiet's attire is unrealistic. Well, I'm afraid that if you're so concerned with realism then perhaps the series where cardboard boxes are infiltration equipment, nanomachines are magical blood fairies and most importantly, the namesake of the series, the Metal Gears are essentially mechanical walking nuclear equipped dinosaur battle tanks isn't the series for you. The series where a whale made of fire is shown in the trailer and none of the fans even blink. That's not the series for people who want realism, out you go.
Any credence I could lend to the Anti-Quiet brigade evaporated when people who weren't very happy with Quiet's attire decided to mass-flag Stefanie Joosten's Twitch stream cause... let's attack the actress who done helped with it! That'll prove our point! All it amounted to was shitting on another person for no reason other than they participated in art you disagreed with.
All in all, the reaction to quiet was an immature approach to artistic freedom. (Which deserves defending no matter how 'needless' or 'embarrasing' you or I might find it. I'm embarrassed that the Chinese Room is still trying, doesn't mean I'm gonna harass them into justifying themselves.) And it was an immature approach to tits, which is pathetic and laughable.
It's neopuritan drivel disguised as a legitimate grievance, concern trolling at best.
Yes, the "excuse" for Quiet's attire is bad. Yes it was just an "excuse" to get he jubblies out on display. That's not the issue, the issue is why can't we accept bare flesh?
But why did Kojima need an excuse? And here's the part nobody is thinking about. Because you made him feel like he needed one. He made the art he wanted to make, he doesn't need an excuse to put tits in it and people hounded and hounded him for it. So he came up with one, and because you like the way the world looks from your horse on high you still hounded him. He shouldn't have had to come up with an excuse and you forced it out of him, his only mistake was realizing you'd never be satisfied and not ignoring your moaning and whining.
I've heard it said that young girls with body issues might not be comfortable with that kind of display. Okay, that's legitimate, I'll grant that. But until someone duct tapes a young girl to a seat and forces her to play MGSV I'm afraid all you should do is let the young girls know there's a possibility that they might be made uncomfortable (Uncomfortable! My word, fetch the vapors!) and move on.
I've heard it argued that Quiet's attire is unrealistic. Well, I'm afraid that if you're so concerned with realism then perhaps the series where cardboard boxes are infiltration equipment, nanomachines are magical blood fairies and most importantly, the namesake of the series, the Metal Gears are essentially mechanical walking nuclear equipped dinosaur battle tanks isn't the series for you. The series where a whale made of fire is shown in the trailer and none of the fans even blink. That's not the series for people who want realism, out you go.
Any credence I could lend to the Anti-Quiet brigade evaporated when people who weren't very happy with Quiet's attire decided to mass-flag Stefanie Joosten's Twitch stream cause... let's attack the actress who done helped with it! That'll prove our point! All it amounted to was shitting on another person for no reason other than they participated in art you disagreed with.
All in all, the reaction to quiet was an immature approach to artistic freedom. (Which deserves defending no matter how 'needless' or 'embarrasing' you or I might find it. I'm embarrassed that the Chinese Room is still trying, doesn't mean I'm gonna harass them into justifying themselves.) And it was an immature approach to tits, which is pathetic and laughable.
Someone who is really stupid or wants to die? If this was Arma or something I could understand people kicking up a fuss. This is the Metal Gear franchise. Realism isn't really meant to be a thing in the franchise nor is being practical.Johnny Novgorod said:
While I can see your reasoning, completely naked 'bishounen' dude has to have at LEAST elements of sexualisation and objectification. Most apparent by the fact (barring 4 I think) that shirtless Snake is used for the same notion (Ocelot torture and... to... mess with Sigint) in most of the games so completely naked really was a design choice.Kingjackl said:
The camera sort of HAS to linger on Raiden he is, literally, always the centre focus. From memory, it doesn't do the zoom in to watch the movements (which aren't needed at all unless it's to 'circulate air' or whatever Kojima's reasoning is) but Raiden is involuntarily presenting his ENTIRE body to the audience because they somehow got that skin-tight suit off him. Bearing in mind again, Snake always keeps the pants.
While you aren't wrong (the 'stripper movements' do push the bounds), this is one of those things where 'objectified' is a problematic term. Quiet does have a personality and motivations but we can't see them because she's representing the idea of Language gating off interactions with people. She also shows Venom Snake's willingness to forgive since she appears fully clothed in the intro and nearly kills VS and Ishmael. This, plus poor time management, means her arc isn't totally fulfilled but there is one there. She's over SEXUALISED but she isn't an object.
For reference, Hulk in Age of Ultron is pretty objectified, he exists solely for hitting things and giving Black Widow dilemmas of heart and conscience with little to no agency. Buuuuut nobody cares about that cos he's the Hulk (plus Cap, Ironman, Thor and Hawkeye all get fulfilling stuff happen).
Wait, your complaining WITHOUT getting into the characterisation? I mean... I don't wanna tell you your business but isn't that kinda ignoring the point? You could complain Eva is too sexual and isn't justified if you didn't get into it but with the benefit of hindsight it makes total sense.
Quiet's "outfit" gets some bare-bones justification (and we get to see what the males with the same dealy wear which is a little... Raiden-y) and she DOES do too many sexual movements but I'm guessing if people like me have told you the characterisation works, you are (not being insulting but realistic) going to write us off as just defending the series and ignoring the hypersexual stuff.
But internally, the logic does hold, it's weird and sketchy and it is STILL too sexual. But it isn't illogical.
Idk dude, I doubt I'm gonna be able to explain my point of view aptly enough without being over-ruled by the urge to just thrust all the male fan-service in the series into a post with "Equal Opportunity Creep factor" as the title.
So in another word, Quiet is the new Bayonetta and Sorceress (Dragon Crown)? They're all capable fighters but people goes apeshit over their apperances.
Ah, people do like to bring up that comparison whenever there's a complaint about women (because it is always women) getting sexually exploited, don't they? Yes, we're fine with violence. You know what we're not fine with? A side character (that we're supposed to take serious) stabbing cats whenever they're on screen or whenever you turn the camera their way. That's just fucking stupid and annoying. Same as a sexy character (that we're supposed to take serious) striking erotic and revealing poses constantly and being displayed as 'Look at that hot piece of ass' 90% of the time. It's a leeriness that gives Michael Bay a run for his money.BarryMcCociner said:
You could also have a literal naked Snake run around for the entire game and then complain when people get annoyed by it, because what's wrong with the naked human form? Nothing. In that setting though, it makes no flippin' sense and detracts from the character.
Meh. The only scene missing was one where Snake and Quiet stepped into the mobile shower together, see the mobile shower shake and rumble in typical Metal Gear fashion and then the door of the mobile shower opens with the alert sound and the exclamation mark followed by all the soldiers and Diamond Dog on mother base turning around with the alert sound and the exclamation mark as Snake steps out and says ''Kept you waiting huh?'' and Quiet replies all dazed ''V has come to''.Casual Shinji said:
Here are the reasons
Some people believe that women should no longer be sexualised, they consider open expressions of male sexuality bad.
This idea that stopping it will make the world a better place for women.
Jealousy.
May simply not like the idea of sexy women.
The last 2 are ok, they would be your own personnel criticisms of what you want in your game but there is nothing wrong with having characters such as this is that's what people want. It won't change the way men treat women, if anything the views of women who think this is harmful has almost certainly done some harm because those women ARE REAL.
Some people believe that women should no longer be sexualised, they consider open expressions of male sexuality bad.
This idea that stopping it will make the world a better place for women.
Jealousy.
May simply not like the idea of sexy women.
The last 2 are ok, they would be your own personnel criticisms of what you want in your game but there is nothing wrong with having characters such as this is that's what people want. It won't change the way men treat women, if anything the views of women who think this is harmful has almost certainly done some harm because those women ARE REAL.
I think Kojima wanted a lady in a bikini for the game but came up with some half arsed reason why she dresses the way she does. The reason makes zero sense. An everytime she is on screen the camera focuses on her arse and breasts so we all know exactly where Kojima mind was. lol. Should have just gave her shorts and a cut off tshirt to wear and his reason why would work better.
The design is kind of bad, but is also the kind of bad that you keep thinking up ideas you think could work better. Like the original idea of a bikini sniper could have worked. Give them camo swim trunks, a sea shell necklace, they would be super laid back to the point of medicated. Just go full beach bum. If they really like the parasite thing, you could build up a character from that. You would trash the stockings because they are totally not breathable. Replace the thong with shorts, the tie bikini with something like a sports bra, you might even be able to get a vest in there now that you opened up a lot of breathing room on your legs. You might also try just going full naked with webbing, maybe even play with some exotic skin like the stone skulls or skull face. Finally if what you really want is a sexy sniper then let them be sexy. Give them their voice back and then let them express their sexuality in other ways then simply dressing in lingerie.
It's a Japanese game, made by Japanese people, and goes along with Japanese sensibilities.
To apply western sensibilities to something made by people who have very little interaction with Western Culture is a very odd thing, I don't really see how anyone can expect them to not only understand a culture completely different to their own, but specifically cater to it.
I kinda wish people would respect games enough to understand them and realise they reflect the creators and try to use them as a peep-hole into other cultures rather than complain insistently that your culture isn't the same as theirs.
To apply western sensibilities to something made by people who have very little interaction with Western Culture is a very odd thing, I don't really see how anyone can expect them to not only understand a culture completely different to their own, but specifically cater to it.
I kinda wish people would respect games enough to understand them and realise they reflect the creators and try to use them as a peep-hole into other cultures rather than complain insistently that your culture isn't the same as theirs.
That is kind of Hideo's thing. They are a Japaneses developer, but they use western tropes and archetypes strained through a Japanese mind, so you end up with like this weird combo that makes it interesting.The Lunatic said:
You know, considering what a fanboy he was of BB in MGS3, they should have just done this from the beginning.Hardsuit said:
Make Ocelot be similar to Bartolomeow in One Piece, he's normally a competent, capable person, but around BB he gets juuuust a little unhinged. Until some tragic event happened in 5 that srs'd him the hell up.
Maybe they could have had something like, BB goes on a mission with a lot of support, finds the camp they were supposed to blow up is instead inhabited by civilians/refugees of some sort, Three Kings style, and Ocelot's faith in Big Boss as 'the ultimate soldier' wavers as they get killed a few at a time during the extraction, leading him to become the sarcastic handless badass we see on Shadow Moses. (if you want to make it even harsher, no conspiracies or anything, just the enemy learned ahead of time you were coming and ran away, and the refugees thought it would be safe to stay there. So not only are you there but the other guys that were heading to engage you. yeah, I love me some of that Pacific and Band of Brothers, how'd you guess?)
Gengisgame said:
BarryMcCociner said:
So for those of you pulling out the sex-negative and/or puritan cards, I have a question.Coruptin said:
Imagine if the game had Snake continuously masturbating throughout the game, just whipping it right on out and wanking himself raw every few minutes. During gameplay, during cutscenes, anywhere and everywhere. When queried, Kojima declares that this is how Snake cleanses his bloodstream of expired nanomachines.
I'm going to assume there would be some objections from the audience. Mostly along the lines of, "WTF, why is he doing that? This is stupid and makes no sense."
Would those people objecting be sex-negative puritans?