Why are people making such a big deal of out of Quiet from MGS 5?

[CaptainMarvelous]

Spoiler

Big boss never lived up to the legend that preceded him. He was a fucking coward. When it was a double who was doing everything to live up the big boss title. Did you forget Miller only found out later on about the double? Big Boss fucked over Miller by lying to him. He did all this to get heat off himself and in the end it was not worth it. Big Boss became a villain out of necessity and not out of spite. He had a perfect vision of the world as one united being. Him simply being a child killing dick hole was not true.

You can't say that he was a coward based on that. We don't have a clue

Spoiler

what the real Big Boss was doing and where he was doing it.

This is not complicated at all. It's just bad storytelling. Kojima fucked up his own convoluted story to such an extent that only more Metal Gear games could try to fix it. Because in the current state MGS V makes no sense at all because of that ending.

I can't believe that someone on Kotaku managed to sum it up nicely: http://kotaku.com/why-metal-gear-solid-vs-ending-was-so-disappointing-1729833383

I'm just gonna spoiler tag my entire contribution for this

Spoiler

Big Boss was probly establishing FOXHOUND. It fits in the time-frame, he likely did it while the medic was in the coma under a different code-name. What exactly happened TO him is kinda unimportant, he's in Peace Walker mode, he's gonna get a lotta land and build a mech with a nuke and then PROFIT!! And this is where the medic comes in.

Phantom Pains' whole theme is the idea of language and identity affecting how you see yourself, and does it pretty awesomely in general. So the twist totally fits (and has some neatish foreshadowing which I thought was a glitch) but it also functions as kind of a 'discrepancy' filler.

If Big Boss did something out of character in the MSX games (like... die)? Or Liquid/Ocelot have weird memories of him? No problem, there were two big bosses. Ocelot claims Liquid's arm is controlling him? Nah, he's doing that thing that he did to the medic. This does leave some holes, like, why Big Boss also goes evil but that can probably be summed up by the whole... he kinda already was. That Mission 43 bit? Big Boss was already willing to do that. While the Phantom wipes out his own soldiers, Big Boss is using them as body-doubles so he can work with impunity.

I think the real problem here, and the one that article has, it's probably a little too simplistic to call Big Boss a villain. He's not terribly bright, but it took him like 80 years to realise that NOT fighting is an option. Hell, it took him that long to tell Snake that, yeah, maybe live in peace rather than be a soldier long past the point of being physically fit. This is a guy who's sole motivation is, and always has been, the fact soldiers can never really 'retire'. The poster-child for taking care of the world's veterans. His solution wound up being not 'end war' but 'endLESS war' so that soldiers are never redundant. The nukes are always just a final resort bargaining chip. Liquid took it different, SOLIDUS took it different but Big Boss? High speech aside, he really does just want a place for soldiers.

Whatever he was doing, he was still aware of events going on even if he wasn't directly involved in them.

... plus, it's MGS, if we want to reconcile weirdness maybe let's start with Psycho Mantis reading your memory card?

 

[stroopwafel]

This has nothing to do with prudish times. This is about her fuckable assets overtaking her actual character completely. A character we're supposed to take seriously. It'd be the same as Big Boss constantly shoving his giant bulg in the camera, because look at what huge dick he has. No seriously, look, look, it's so floppy and tied to the laws of gravity.

This is exactly what happens with Raiden in MGS4 though. In MGS2 he is a reluctant and almost meek character who actively wishes to get out of the mission as in complete juxtaposition of Snake. His dialogue and character interactions being deeply contemplative about the philosophical ramifications of the information age, genetic selection and the military industrial complex.

Fast forward 6 years later and Raiden returns..as a cyborg ninja turned emo with a freakin huge bulge in his cyborg pants spouting lines like ''I am lightning..you are the rain'' as if he's in some kind of cringeworthy Greenday music video.

MGS always had a way of ridiculizing characters, but this is in part also thanks to 'fans' rejecting the intellectual approach Kojima once had for the series. MGS never had a straightforward narrative and characterization that necessarily adhered to popular tropes as the games always unapologetically carried its eclectic mix of serious real-world concepts with complete eccentricity on its sleeve. Quiet perfectly falls in line with Kojima's signature style.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

My thoughts on this issue would basically just be paraphrasing Jim Sterling, so I won't bother. However, i will say to the people saying "oh, why is it such a big deal?"...come on guys. You know why people are making a big deal about this. You have to take one look at her to know exactly what the problem is, and it's not a new problem. The reason it's being talked about is that the game is the latest example in a long line of games objectifying women. There's no need to feign ignorance just because it isn't negatively affecting you.

Also, with regard to the in-game explanation...ditch the stockings, maybe put on some comfortable shorts, swap out the ridiculous micro-bikini top for a sports bra. If I were a sniper who for some stupid reason had to live my life half naked, that's how I'd dress. When the excuse doesn't even justify the outfit, that's when it gives the game away.

Ima say it again with the picture, while Quiet is over-sexualised, in MGS terms she's doing pretty alright considering...

... man, when having a weird catchphrase poem mantra is only the SECOND most embarassing thing you're known for, you KNOW your game got weird.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Its less about her being sexualized in my opinion and more about the in-game explanation feeling a bit too much like a hand-wave to cover up the really obvious, I detest to use this word but I don't have a proper synonym at the moment, "fanservice". I mean in previous MGS games the sexy girl idea is pretty well documented as a staple somewhere in it and it wouldn't be much of a poor choice to me if Kojima and crew didn't feel the need to invent a reason for her to be wearing less clothing.
I'm not one to freak out over sexy characters in some games, especially games that are known already for being over-the-top in other aspects as the MGS series is, but I do feel its disingenuous to try to explain away the sexiness by way of anything other than said character enjoys showing off. I'm more willing to believe a plausible explanation than a hand-wave.
I don't particularly feel bothered by it except that its sort of forced, and by forced I don't mean the skimpy outfit but rather the "she has to do this for x reasons" thing. As I said I don't mind it in a game, just as long as the devs are at least honest in their motivations or plausible in their explanation.
Eva, for example, had a habit of showing off her goods in MGS3, but that was pretty well because her character was a show-off in general so it fit.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

As much as I love T&A, and Quiet is fine otherwise, there are a few of rather out-of-tone or completely random scenes with Quiet where its just like....WTF?

Oh good lord

Okay I think that the outcry about Quiet might have a liittle bit more to do with scenes like this than just the fact that she's wearing a bikini.

What exactly is the context of her deciding to do a strip show in the middle of nowhere?

 

[Twintix]

snip.

Is... is that seriously the explanation they had for why she's dressed like trailer trash?

...
...
... OK, I have never played a single MGS game, so this might all be par for the course in that universe, but that is the stupidest goddamn excuse for fanservice I have ever heard. By that logic, shouldn't she be, like, almost drowning every time she got wet?

And we're supposed to take this seriously? Kojima tried to be the moral high here and try to make critics of the woman's design feel bad for what they said? I'd laugh my ass off if it wasn't the middle of the night here.

Kojima, dude, next time you should just stop trying so hard to justify your choice and just say you wanted some T&A in your game. I'd still think she looks really fucking stupid, but you'd at least be honest with us.

 

[EternallyBored]

As much as I love T&A, and Quiet is fine otherwise, there are a few of rather out-of-tone or completely random scenes with Quiet where its just like....WTF?

Oh good lord

Okay I think that the outcry about Quiet might have a liittle bit more to do with scenes like this than just the fact that she's wearing a bikini.

What exactly is the context of her deciding to do a strip show in the middle of nowhere?

She drinks through her skin, or to be more specific, the parasites in her skin take in water through it and give it to the body, it's also apparently an intense feeling if I remember that conversation right. She can't submerge herself and still breath, but things like showers and rain apparently cause joy spasms for her or something like that.

She does it when you first meet her too, when you fight her the first time once her health gets low enough she disappears and then goes to play near a waterfall for a minute to gain back her health, also doing a little dance routine where you can easily spot her and either shoot her or drop heavy objects on her head to knock her out.

There's no real explanation for why she's the only parasite infected character that does it, it would be infinitely more amusing to see the scarred up skullface or the old man code talker dancing in the rain with joy because their skin parasites are happy or something.

Seriously, these things give out super powers, do they really count as parasites at this point? I guess calling them symbiotes doesn't sound as good, but really, there's like no downside to those things outside of the vocal cord variety which are different from the other ones that can bring you back from the dead and give you super powers in exchange for just kind of carrying them around and absorbing sunlight and oxygen.

EDIT: oh lord, I just realized these things give superpowers and take away your ability to swim, they're basically the devil fruit from One Piece, there's even different varieties that grant different superpowers.

 

[Redryhno]

Through all that though, the plot still needs to at least flow together into a cohesive narrative, and MGS V failed to do that, the characters weren't stupid for believable reasons or because it made sense, the characters acted like idiots because the bare bones plot wouldn't work otherwise. Kojima can use all the strange stuff he wants, but that doesn't excuse a poor plot that has major dramatic moments that only happen because the bikini clad sniper can't be arsed to pick up a pen.

As I said, it's a series where you need to turn your brain off to enjoy because people look far too deep into the messages that may or may not be there.

I mean, seriously, the plot of every MGS game is silly at the best of times and full of people doing stupid things, much less all that cohesive junk you're asking for. None of it makes sense, the last few hours of cutscenes are the only thing that actually matters for the message that he tries to get across.

Also, as I said before, I find it sorta funny that everyone is so sure to blame Kojima this time around when other controversies regarding narrative were blamed on their publishers instead of their devs.

 

[shintakie10]

There's no real explanation for why she's the only parasite infected character that does it, it would be infinitely more amusing to see the scarred up skullface or the old man code talker dancing in the rain with joy because their skin parasites are happy or something.

I can give the obvious reason. She has tits so she's allowed to have special rules.

More to the point, she's fanservice. She's a fanservice character with a ridiculous backstory crafted specifically to allow her to be fanservice. That's it.

Its like those VN's that give ridiculous reasons why people are having sex. Sure they could just have sex, but why just have sex when you can give them a reason to have sex. Low on mana for your summon? Guess what?!? Penis juice can refill her mana, so go bone Saber real quick so she can get back into the fight!

That's literally what they've done here. Quiet is a character that was meant to be fanservice, but for whatever reason they decided it wasn't kosher to put a character in just for fanservice and crafted a garbage excuse that falls apart when you look at it funny as a reason for her to be fanservice.

I'll always say in regards to this. MGS has a lot of fanservice in it. It has never felt the need to justify it beyond going "Look at this fanservice!" If they did they barely hid the fact that it was fanservice. I'm usually okay with this, even if I wish the story would stop trying to take me out of serious moments with stuff like it, but whatever it works and I'll take it. This time they went out of their way to pretend it wasn't fanservice to the point that I actually believed Hideo Kojima that wasn't fanservice. Then it turns out it was just that, fanservice. Complete fanservice to the point that it actually pulled me completely out of the game and made just wonder wtf was goin on and actually made me actively hate it instead of my usual reaction of ignoring it.

If Hideo Kojima had simply owned up to it at the start this wouldn't have been near the problem it is.

 

[EternallyBored]

Through all that though, the plot still needs to at least flow together into a cohesive narrative, and MGS V failed to do that, the characters weren't stupid for believable reasons or because it made sense, the characters acted like idiots because the bare bones plot wouldn't work otherwise. Kojima can use all the strange stuff he wants, but that doesn't excuse a poor plot that has major dramatic moments that only happen because the bikini clad sniper can't be arsed to pick up a pen.

As I said, it's a series where you need to turn your brain off to enjoy because people look far too deep into the messages that may or may not be there.

I mean, seriously, the plot of every MGS game is silly at the best of times and full of people doing stupid things, much less all that cohesive junk you're asking for. None of it makes sense, the last few hours of cutscenes are the only thing that actually matters for the message that he tries to get across.

Also, as I said before, I find it sorta funny that everyone is so sure to blame Kojima this time around when other controversies regarding narrative were blamed on their publishers instead of their devs.

I save turning my brain off for Michael Bay movies, I don't think Kojima is that bad, you seem to be awful hard on Kojima, while I would consider his writing far from perfect, you seem to be awful hard on him, I don't think his writing is so bad that I need to turn off my brain to enjoy his games, well, except Metal Gear Solid V.

That's the issue here, you seem to think this writing is consistent with his previous works, whilst I find it to be markedly inferior to his past effort.

MGS 1-4 and Peace Walker didn't require me to turn my brain off to enjoy the game, the plots were convoluted, and his messages always a bit hamhanded, but they were otherwise internally consistent, they made a certain amount of sense, MGS V however, does not.

The worst thing I can think of prior to 5 was the scene with Big Mama in 4 where she seemed to fail to recognize the body she was caring for was Solidus and not Big Boss, that made little sense since Eva should have damn well known which eye Big Boss lost and realize that Solidus was missing the other eye. She is only around for one chapter though, and the screw up is largely only recognizable if you paid a lot of attention to MGS 2.

MGS V is on a whole other level, there is a massive gulf between a character not recognizing an identical clone due to a detail she should know but most fans wouldn't remember, and a character who could have stopped the deaths of others, but didn't because she couldn't pick up a fucking pencil.

The level of technology has also been fairly believable throughout the series, again, with only 5 standing out as an anomaly. Rex was powerful, much more so than anything in MG 1 and 2, and Ray was a general step up and also a mass produced model, Arsenal was also different but a step up from Rex and anything previously.

Then MGS 3 came along and gave us Shagohod which was presented well but obviously fairly primitive looking with only a couple of machine guns to protect itself outside its nuke, so it looked like a convincing precursor to the D and TX-55 from MG 1 and 2. 4 had the Gekkos, which obviously weren't as powerful as a full metal gear, but they were an obvious step up in miniaturization and mass production, even revengeance gave us the much more advanced beast in Exelcus.

Only really Peace Walker seemed like an anomaly, but even then Peace walker still looked pretty janky and primitive compared to Rex's sleek design, it only really looked advanced compared to the Metal gears from MG 1 and 2 and the AI played well into showing where the Patriots system came from.

Then 5 comes along and now we've got a metal gear that is easily one of the most powerful in the series, there is zero reason why we should be devolving back to Rex, and especially the far inferior looking D and TX-55.

Then we get to the parasites that basically just nuke any of the early generation nanomachines in terms of power, MGS 3 had the Cobra unit but their powers were unexplained so we could write them off as unique, then 5 rolls in and shows that the Cobra units power could be god damned mass produced and given to people. Kojima fuckery or not, that's bullshit.

5 is not the norm, so I cannot in good conscience excuse it for shit that the other games either don't do, or when they do, don't take it nearly to the same level this one did.

To quote something I heard somewhere else, "MGS 5 is a good game, but it isn't a good Metal Gear game".

Edit: mangled a sentence in my first paragraph

 

[Redryhno]

snip

Hard on him? I think his messages are fine and while some are common, others are rare to find in modern media anymore, I've just always thought he needs to spend less time hammering it in at the last second. I enjoy his games, but there's far too many people that put way too much thought into the basis of them all. Culture, family, war is shit for everyone, and death. That's pretty much every MGS game. Far too many people that think there's something so much deeper in them than that. And that bothers me, I may enjoy them, but I played through them a few years ago(MGS I played as a kid and missed pretty much everything about it), and watched a streamer play through them to remind myself, and I found that I enjoyed them SOOOO much more watching than I did playing.

Do I think his writing is bad? No, I just think his pacing needs work(or not, because it just wouldn't be MGS without the batshit insanity) and slightly less reliance on cutscenes, as much as I love them, there's too much. The final fight with Ocelot in MGS4? Amazing. The half hour death scene of Big Boss? Far too long considering how Foxdie's worked on everyone else and how much padding is put into something that can be summed up with "I fucked up big time and you don't need to kill yourself anymore". And he could do with slightly less convoluted plotlines that are resolved suddenly and without anywhere near the same amount of care that was put into putting them together.

 

[EternallyBored]

snip

Hard on him? I think his messages are fine and while some are common, others are rare to find in modern media anymore, I've just always thought he needs to spend less time hammering it in at the last second. I enjoy his games, but there's far too many people that put way too much thought into the basis of them all. Culture, family, war is shit for everyone, and death. That's pretty much every MGS game. Far too many people that think there's something so much deeper in them than that. And that bothers me, I may enjoy them, but I played through them a few years ago(MGS I played as a kid and missed pretty much everything about it), and watched a streamer play through them to remind myself, and I found that I enjoyed them SOOOO much more watching than I did playing.

Do I think his writing is bad? No, I just think his pacing needs work(or not, because it just wouldn't be MGS without the batshit insanity) and slightly less reliance on cutscenes, as much as I love them, there's too much. The final fight with Ocelot in MGS4? Amazing. The half hour death scene of Big Boss? Far too long considering how Foxdie's worked on everyone else and how much padding is put into something that can be summed up with "I fucked up big time and you don't need to kill yourself anymore". And he could do with slightly less convoluted plotlines that are resolved suddenly and without anywhere near the same amount of care that was put into putting them together.

I agree with a lot of those criticisms, I could overlook those flaws because the story was still a bizarre fun romp through a sci-fi supernatural super spy setting with some freshman level college philosophy thrown in. The MGS games are not super deep, but they had internal consistency, the games largely followed the rules set up by previous games, the prequel had bizarre superpowers in the Cobra unit (and this was before all of the supernatural stuff was explained as nanomachines in MGS 4), but the technology was obviously more primitive.

The actions of characters in previous games make sense by the games own logic, the Boss is in a convoluted situation, but there wasn't any easy out there the same why Quiet could have saved a lot of lives and grief just by communicating through a method other than speech. Ocelot's plans are bizarre and convoluted as hell in MGS 4, but there was still internal logic, he didn't secretly have a way to kill the Patriots that would have been obvious to a kindergartner.

Spoiler: endgame spoiler

The twist is another issue, in 2 they pulled it early and we got a chance to get to know Raiden, even if many hated him in the end for not being as cool as Snake, in 5 there is no getting used to it, we are told and then the game is basically over, kaput, finished, Venom Snake is the BB we fight in MG 1 and the real Big Boss is the one we fight in MG 2, woo, that was totally a worthy finish to the franchise. well, until it's inevitably resurrected as a pachinko machine

I like Kojima and think his writing is pretty good, it's not super deep, but it has some interesting themes and hits on some great scenes and character arcs, 5 just does not live up to the standard set by previous games, it lacks the same internal logic and sense of cohesiveness of previous games. The only thing that saves it from being the worst MGS game in the series is the stellar detail and fun of the gameplay.

 

[Redryhno]

I like Kojima and think his writing is pretty good, it's not super deep, but it has some interesting themes and hits on some great scenes and character arcs, 5 just does not live up to the standard set by previous games, it lacks the same internal logic and sense of cohesiveness of previous games. The only thing that saves it from being the worst MGS game in the series is the stellar detail and fun of the gameplay.

I dunno, a recurring theme of the MGS series is misdirection and characters not being who you are led to believe they are. MGS1 Gray Fox is actually alive, Liquid, the PMS commander is actually your "perfect" brother. MGS2, you're actually playing Raiden, Olga is actually the cyborg, Solidus is the third clone and was president during MGS1. MGS3 the whole bag with the Boss and Ocelote's involvement. MGS4 this entire time that you thought Liquid was still alive and had been controlling Ocelot was all just a clever ruse. That keeps with the internal logic of the series so far as I'm concerned.

And I'm honestly not a fan of the gameplay. I've grown out of open-world games for the most part that aren't Elder Scrolls anymore. There's just too much junk cluttering up the area you're put in. About the only thing I've enjoyed so far is the kidnapping parachutes, and even that's sorta gotten old.

There's some things I don't care for, but the thing that keeps irking me is the open-world part of it. It's not MGS to me, it's just sorta...boring. Linearity is very much needed for Kojima I think.

 

[Kopikatsu]

There's no real explanation for why she's the only parasite infected character that does it, it would be infinitely more amusing to see the scarred up skullface or the old man code talker dancing in the rain with joy

Uh... the other members of the Parasite Unit absolutely have the same attributes as Quiet. Try shooting a Skull with the water pistol.

 

[EyeReaper]

So, I've never played a MGS game, not a one, so forgive me if I ade a mistake in my leap of logic here.

So, we're talking about a game that has a psychic gimp who can read the saves on your memory card, a guy who mind controls bees into a vague gun shape to then fire said bees, some sort of astronaut that explodes into a giant fire face, and a backflipping bishonen buck naked... and it's a lady taking her shirt off to breathe through her tits that breaks the camel's back?

Again, complete outsider here, but she really doesn't seem all that out of place in this universe.

 

[Nazulu]

And as usual, people who don't understand others complaints do their best to show they don't want to understand others complaints by writing them off as stupid. Very classy. Not all of you, but you people will know how you act.

OT: It's very very simple. They put in a skimpy character and gave a stupid excuse to try and take it seriously, even though it's impossible to take it seriously because they like to show off every single erotic pose they code. It contradicts itself basically.

It doesn't matter if it's happened before because it's still not going to be taken seriously. No matter what creative shit they make up, it does not stop the camera capturing all the sexiness it can. But for some reason many of you can't think outside the box and think just because the story is written in such a way that it can't be improved.

I personally find such blatant ogling annoying, but I would be more cool with it if they said it was what they were straight up going for, not pretending to be something else. If Kojima just said "I like big butts and I can not lie" this wouldn't have been a big deal at all. It's like he's ashamed that it's in the game.

 

[EternallyBored]

There's no real explanation for why she's the only parasite infected character that does it, it would be infinitely more amusing to see the scarred up skullface or the old man code talker dancing in the rain with joy

Uh... the other members of the Parasite Unit absolutely have the same attributes as Quiet. Try shooting a Skull with the water pistol.

oh yeah, that piddly stun thing, forgot how useless that shit was, got excited after listening to the tape, tried it, and went right back to using the machine gun on them, far more effective. Water only works well on them if you use weather modification to cause it to rain, that usually stuns them long enough to plant a bunch of C4 at their feet. Waste of GMP though, any piercing weapon works better and cheaper.

That does bring up a good point though, I forgot about that tape and the fact it supposedly is supposed to stun them, the water thing is actually the parasites dropping all other functions to absorb more water since they expel water to do their mojo, which is where the mist comes from. Except quiet, and code talker, and Skullface, pretty much just the skulls do the mist thing, different types of parasites or something probably.

What I meant by that line though was it would have been funny to watch Code talker or skull face freak out in the rain, as taking inordinate pleasure in rain or showers seems to be a Quiet only thing. The skulls just kind of shake and spasm if you hit them with the water gun, then go back to shooting you.

 

[Areloch]

There's no real explanation for why she's the only parasite infected character that does it, it would be infinitely more amusing to see the scarred up skullface or the old man code talker dancing in the rain with joy because their skin parasites are happy or something.

I'll always say in regards to this. MGS has a lot of fanservice in it. It has never felt the need to justify it beyond going "Look at this fanservice!" If they did they barely hid the fact that it was fanservice. I'm usually okay with this, even if I wish the story would stop trying to take me out of serious moments with stuff like it, but whatever it works and I'll take it. This time they went out of their way to pretend it wasn't fanservice to the point that I actually believed Hideo Kojima that wasn't fanservice. Then it turns out it was just that, fanservice. Complete fanservice to the point that it actually pulled me completely out of the game and made just wonder wtf was goin on and actually made me actively hate it instead of my usual reaction of ignoring it.

If Hideo Kojima had simply owned up to it at the start this wouldn't have been near the problem it is.

Just to make sure I'm following here:

"The games have always had tons of fanservice, but now that there's a character that does some fanservice, and there's also a story reason for her attire, it is bad"

Does that sum it up?

Because I gotta say, if there's been tons of unexplained fanservice until now, and then this particular character actually has some backstory attached, it strikes me as being slightly more likely that Kojima simply thought the backstory was cool(weither you agree or not), not because he suddenly needed an excuse for fanservice.

Given that we see plenty of shirtless and pantsless manlyness in the same game without any explanation on why the camera would zoom in on it, it seems unlikely Kojima felt he had to suddenly justify the fanservice in the game.

 

[Drathnoxis]

I haven't played the game, I've only watched Jim's rant on the subject, but the justification seems pretty retarded to me.

Okay, so she needs to breath through her skin, can't she just wear some loose clothing made of a breathable material like cotton? That way she could wear as much clothing as she likes and still have enough air flow to breathe.