Why are The Witcher 2 fans so defensive?

[Lewieroo0]

Having to look at other sources to enjoy the game is NOT good game design, i have to say that these fans are acting like immature dickheads to those who don't see the game like they do

Tutorials are quite mandatory to let the player know what they're doing, otherwise how would anyone know what the hell to do to get use to the Basics?

 

[Danceofmasks]

I have videos on youtube showing off my style .. and frankly, if I have to use the pause menu I'd be too embarassed to upload them.

What do you use to record them? I tried Fraps, but the frame rate was just awful.

What are your computer's specs?
FRAPS requires some system resources (and less resources than other recording options, such as screen capturing), so it will impair performance somewhat.

Still the least intrusive and highest quality recording, though.

 

[Selef]

i don't post often, but I'm posting now. I am honestly tired of hearing how the people defending the game have to be ignorant and blind when they are giving good, reasonable arguments to why they like it. And the people who are bashing it can get away with arguing "you just think its good because your a PC elitist and hate everything else." and other people bashing the game just agree. Now while I do enjoy my PC I also have a PS3 I enjoy, I just play more games on my PC for the convince of having them all in one place. I'm not saying that all the people against the games are giving weak arguments, some of them have valid points, the combat was infuriating for me at times, but the sense of accomplishment I got from getting past those parts was great. But i think that people who are saying what they don't like about the game should actually give good reasons as to why they don't like it.

EDIT: P.S. anyone else finding the term P.C. Elitist just a little offensive? I personally don't think I'm better than anyone based on what i choose to play games on, that would be a little sad.

 

[mateushac]

Having to look at other sources to enjoy the game is NOT good game design, i have to say that these fans are acting like immature dickheads to those who don't see the game like they do

Tutorials are quite mandatory to let the player know what they're doing, otherwise how would anyone know what the hell to do to get use to the Basics?

As stated by PRETTY MUCH EVERYBODY already, you absolutely DO NOT need to check for any outside source to enjoy this game to a pretty good extent. I've never played the first game and i've beat this one on normal without ever looking into the tutorial journal entry.

Prologue, even out of order (stupid choice by the devs, I agree), teaches you everything you need to know about combat and, for me atleast, it being kind of hard actually helps you learn stuff that are not promptly shown in the pop-up tips.

Of course people may want the console, I mean, easy difficulty, and it's actually there for you. You can probably "mash "X" to victory" if you really want to (don't be ashamed to tune it down to easy if that's what you need to enjoy the game, many have done it and do not regret their choice). But honestly, this game's combat system actually has ONE virtue, THE LORE IS DEEPLY INTEGRATED TO IT: You may have to read books to get to exploit enemy weaknesses, you may have to learn how to set traps to protect yourself, you may have to get to know the fields you're walking into so as to prepare your potions right.
Geralt is not an UNBEATABLE hero, neither he is an omniscient being. He has to learn from each and every new foe, as any normal human (or mutant) would, and the player has to do so with him.

Actually, still about the combat system, I guess the main point of complaint to it comes prom the fact that it's more focused to the STORY itself than to the BATTLING ACTION. You get to immerse yourself into the character much more than to enjoy that huge gorefest we're used to.

To finish this poorly organized supposedly fanboyish mindstorming thread. I do recognize this game may annoy plenty of people, but maybe these "faults", as you see them, are just a way for the developer to show the player how their game should be played for maximum enjoyment and immersion (according to their opinion).

 

[Bad Cluster]

Fans are always defensive, subject does not matter, this is one of their defining traits.

 

[infohippie]

http://www.saviors-of-queens.com/index2.html

Hahahaha, that's freaking awesome! That is their response to the people complaining about the difficulty of The Witcher 2, right?

 

[Kahunaburger]

But honestly, this game's combat system actually has ONE virtue, THE LORE IS DEEPLY INTEGRATED TO IT: You may have to read books to get to exploit enemy weaknesses, you may have to learn how to set traps to protect yourself, you may have to get to know the fields you're walking into so as to prepare your potions right.
Geralt is not an UNBEATABLE hero, neither he is an omniscient being. He has to learn from each and every new foe, as any normal human (or mutant) would, and the player has to do so with him.

Actually, still about the combat system, I guess the main point of complaint to it comes prom the fact that it's more focused to the STORY itself than to the BATTLING ACTION. You get to immerse yourself into the character much more than to enjoy that huge gorefest we're used to.

Truth.

Witcher 2 is a poor hack-and-slash and an awesome RPG. The combat is clunky, but it's one of the best in terms of integrating combat into the story and world. It rewards tactics and planning, and is true to the source material. I've only read The Last Wish out of the series, but the combat in the game definitely feels like the combat in that book.

 

[Waaghpowa]

I don't see the point in being mad at bad reveiws, infact im suprised that a game with so little in the way f user-freindlyness has been given such stellar reveiws. Honestly if a reveiwer can't look past the faults of the game that is his opinion and with a series as ball-breaking as The Witcher a completely valid one.

Im a fan of The Witcher series, have been even pre Enhanced Edition, but the games are an aquired taste. They lack any kind of hand-holding BUT if you are willing to look past their faults what they do manage is so very far above the offerings of other companies that its hard to imagine anyone not liking it. Then I rememebr dying 52 times and realise that this game is NOT for everyone.

BUT the other side of the coin is that some have simply not been giving the game a chance or dismissing it out of hand becuase it is not what they are used to. The game is in the vein of Metro 2033 (the stellar PC version) or STALKER. You have to put your pre-conceptions about how to play this type of game aside and realise what the game is trying to do. In Metro it makes you feel like an armedbut fleshy man at the piss-end of the apocalypse and you need to play accordingly, no running and gunning like a floating gun or a tank here. In The Witcher the world is harsh and if you are not careful you can die. Fast. You need to consider how you are going to play more carefully than in many other action RPGs.

Probably one of the best explanations thus far.

Note: Those of you claiming "PC elitism", those you call elitists DO NOT represent the rest of us. You also come off as having a smug attitude or self righteous, like you're somehow better for not being an "elitist".

Now can we all shut up about it please? The people complaining about complainers are just as bad, so shut the fuck up, you're not making it any better.

 

[Sinclair Solutions]

Let's just back up a moment here.

The Witcher 2 fans aren't defensive. FANS are defensive. It's bizarre to me how you are just noticing this with respect to this one game. I'd guess this is the first time you are on the opposite side of the argument.

Fans are always defensive of what they love with the level/insanity of the defensiveness inversely related to mainstream opinions.

Sorry I couldn't read all of A, probably a B person but was just responding to the general premise of the thread anyway.

Exactly. Go watch Yahtzee's "Mailbag Showdown" episode. Some people just want to defend their decisions to avoid the niggling doubts in their heads. That's just one reason, but people do crazy, stubborn things for a multitude of reasons.

I think there are a few generalisations here. Not all fans are bad. Being a fan of something doesn't inherently make you a dickhead. It's the obnoxious fans I can't stand. You know, this argument.

It's the whole obnoxious fan thread:

I liked this.

I am smarter than anyone else, therefore not only is this game the best ever made but anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

Why can some of these people just not admit fault?

If you are a fan, great, but don't be a stubborn, ignorant, obnoxious dick about it. If you are a fan, your attitude should really be:

"I liked this game. However, not everyone is the same. Some people may not like this game and, in reality, it isn't really perfect. I can try and point out its aspects to people in a respectful manner in the hope that they may gain some of the positive experience I did."

Not

DERP DERP YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT!

Well, I just thought that since we were talking about particularly stubborn and defensive fans, I assumed we didn't need to specify that they were the zealous fans. Obviously it was a wrong assumption.

 

[Waaghpowa]

-

Aside from the fact that the dude in the video drives me bat shit crazy, I agree with the rest. Not every game should be simplified or have the difficulty tuned down because it will make everyone happier. It's their product, and they can design it how they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Clearly there are people who are ok with their design choices.

 

[devotedsniper]

The ZP vid didn't really bother me he had some good points but then he says things such as you couldn't skip cutscenes when you can (come on it took all of 3 buttons for me to figure it out when it came to dying for the first time) which also makes me think he didn't really give it to much of a chance (my guess it's cause of the first). I realise the guys a critic so he's never gonna truly be happy with a game but some of the people on here did seem to take it rather seriously.

In my opinion i don't see where all the whining comes from, i think most of those complaints about the game are either because people haven't played through the first (although if you do abit of reading you can understand the previous game fairly easily), and/or there to used to modern games where they hold your hand the whole way through the game, where this one doesn't it will help you if you need it which means look it up in the journal but otherwise your on your own (you also get popups on the screen telling you how to do things but i guess those who need there hands held can't read those?).

In the end i managed to finish it before any of the patches (which aparently make the combat easier at the start) along with the troll DLC (which most people weren't able to download for some reason so it's now included in the patch), i never really had any issues, even with the combat once i got some of my skills up it was fairly easy, i can't complain, anyone else can i'll respect your opinion but i'm happy that TW2 took this approach of trial by fire.

P.S. to all those complaining the combats too hard i got a great tip for you.... turn the difficulty down, i know it's super hard to find in the menu but you can do it! *sarcasm*

 

[Ericb]

I think the better question is: "Why are gamers so defensive?" I've noticed that most gamers are extremely annoying and whine about pretty much everything they can think of when it comes to something they hate, then go into ultimate rage when someone doesn't like what they like. For a sect that wants to be taken seriously, it is rather hilarious how childish and retarded they can be.

No offense but its not just "Gamers" go talk to a yankees fan or Heat fan they well piss in your ear for hours on end how great thier team is and deny to the grave anything bad. Hell football hooligans well kill you for saying something bad about thier teams.

I agree! Football fans, video game fans.... it's all the same: Tribalism. Emphasizing petty little differences because they need to form an identity. People have done this throughout the ages.

It's stupid regardless of how it manifests itself. It's stupid when people make such a fuss over silly things like Skin Colour, Football Clubs, Video games, or music genres. There are many serious things in life, and many silly little inconsequential things in life. Caring about the serious stuff is hard and difficult. Making a fuss over the silly things is easy and allows them to latch onto a pop culture phenomenon in order to craft a pseudo-identity because their own lives are dreadfully hollow.

Let me be even blunter than I was: If you really think which football club you support matters AT ALL in the grand scheme of things, you haven't really ever lived. If you think that just because some guy on the web makes fun of a game you like or gives it a bad score is something to get legitimately upset over, then your world view is pitifully small.

There are people being shelled by tanks in Syria. In Libya, soldiers are, by order, raping dissidents and opponents of Gaddafi. There are hundreds of thousands of people dying ever year around the world because they can't get an easily produced vaccine. Gays have been BURIED UP TILL THEIR WAISTS AND STONED TO DEATH IN IRAN. Soldiers and Afghan civilians are being killed every day in Afghanistan.

If you choose to channel your rage and angst and emotions into a discussion on what score a reviewer gave to a video game.... what kind of a life are you living? Can it be called a life? Think about that for a second. Really.

This world is so vast. CERN, Thermodynamics, Protein biology, Cosmology, Roman History, Chinese History, Music, Paintings, The Barrier Reef, the huge existence of this world, the sheer breathtaking wonder of the vastness of the galaxy and the cosmos and the weight of human history and human suffering and happiness, of human triumph and despair.... and you choose to push your anger and angst into a bad score for a video game you like? How old are you? How mature are you?

Being angry about the suppression of your legal rights is okay. Being angry, literally ANGRY over a negative score for a video game that you play for a week of your life in your leisure time? You're gonna be upset over that?

This world is so, so, so much bigger than video games. And it's right outside your door, or it can be found in any manner of books you can get free from your library.

I'll tell you this. In fact, I'll make a bet: I'll bet that if you read one of two of these books: "Humanity" by Jonathan Glover or "A problem from Hell" by Samantha Power, you will realize how silly it is to get angry over a few bad reviews about a video game.

I'll just quote the whole thing so many more people can read this.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I, personally, am intensely annoyed by this trend. Is it somehow wrong that I can like the Witcher 2 in spite of the fact it did everything in it's power to make me hate it during the first few hours? Yes the game gets easier when you figure out how to play. It would just be nice if the game taught me how to play rather than expecting me to just sort it all out myself. And to many of the people who point out that some critical piece of information was available for me to find, I am reminded of the opening scene in the Hitcherhiker's Guide to the Galaxy where Arthur admits the plan to demolish his house was available for him to view in the basement of a building behind a locked door in a file cabinet unhelpfully labeled.

And then there are the people who defend the difficulty itself of the opening bits. The problem I have with this defense is 1) The game is difficult largely because the game refuses to teach you how to play properly and 2) the game has a difficulty curve that goes the wrong way. The opening two hours of the game are far harder than the closing two hours. The latter isn't simply because I've figured out how to play but literally that my character became so very powerful that the very idea I might fail at a fight even if I used the worst possible tactics was almost laughable. There is a difference between being a difficult game and the game just being difficult. The latter is true in spades as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Alon Shechter]

Speaking AS a Witcher 2 fan, I can understand people getting frustrated with no tutorial, it's just that I never needed one, it took me one fight to get an understanding of all the controls.
I don't mind that other people didn't like the game, I can easily see why they won't like it as this game does not appeal to just anyone.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I don't have to answer this! THE HELL WITH YOU! Get outta my face!

 

[GreyKnight3445]

because they`re PC gamers or they think that the reviewers missed the fun portions of the game and should give it a second look. or the`ye whiny fanboys

 

[The Lugz]

Well the ZP review was inaccurate and whiny. Mostly though I defend it because I think it's a genuinely good game and doesn't suffer from most the afflictions that are coming to the RPG genre lately. Just take a look at DA2 to see what I mean.

personally if i were the editor i'd have just rejected that as a 'review' on the grounds that half of it's content is factually inaccurate, and the game wasn't even 1/3 completed so it isn't a review, by definition it's a 'zp first impression' it is however true that witcher 2 suffers from a few bugs... like seeing through the world in a certain cave, pieces of loot-able equipment not being attainable except from very obtuse angles, the movement granularity being far too low to comfortably interact with some small elements and a sticky combat bug where you can be chain stunned or knock-backed into corners ( but the argument is don't stand in the corner to begin with, and you can see where this goes... ) and does not give the user any kind of decent tutorial past second long pop-ups and a centimetre thick user manual, honestly who reads manuals? seriously when was the last time you read a game manual

i feel my experience of the first hour or two of game-play was less than optimal because of general un-intuitive combat but after that it's pretty easy unless you miss some of the core concepts and the time would have been better spent in a training area ( a dream of the witcher training someone else would have made sense considering the start of the game and due to a certain plot point that i won't spoil. )

fact of the matter is once you get into the game it grabs you by the toes and leads you on it's merry way, it's a very nice story, great rpg elements and mini-quests and side jokes it has a brilliant aesthetic and as many pretty leaves and textures as your overpriced graphics cards can handle so it ticks pretty-much every box in the fan-boy awe list
and it has boobies, i mean, who doesn't like those?

so when people claim it sucks hard for x y and z reasons expect to see a flame-war of epic proportions!
( and the fact that both sides have a point for once just adds fuel to the fire. )

 

[icaritos]

Well, you see, this is a AAA PC *only* game, so PC gamers have to defend it, because AAA games just aren't coming around as often as they used to.

Except it's not, because it's coming to 360 (and maybe PS3) as well. So if that's why people are falling over themselves to defend it so vehemently, they can stop now.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/110856-E3-Witcher-2-Xbox-360

Yeah, I know, but I still think that's why its got such a head-strong fanbase, I mean, honestly, don't PC gamers strike you as pretentious? I mean, I'm one of them and even I admit they'll argue over this kinda stuff till the end of time. Besides, I won't believe its coming to consoles until the day of release, cause they pulled the same shit with the last Witcher.

Halo fans? Metal Gear fans? Call of Duty fans? Dragon Age fans?

Fans are fans regardless of platform, stop trying to associate that attitude to PC gamers.

 

[tzimize]

Based on the response to this week's ZP and Greg Tito's review (in which he said that he liked the game but pointed out his frustrations with it), fans of The Witcher 2 seem to be really defensive about the game.

I have two questions surrounding this turn of events. The first is more complex and dissects the nature of the way game experiences are presented. The second is more along the lines of your basic "why?" question. Pick your poison, or poisons, and "A" or "B" before your responses so we can see what you're responding to.

Question A:

I haven't played the game myself and I likely won't, but from what I understand, frustrations with the game are born out of the lack of a tutorial, i.e. "I kept dying because I didn't know how to effectively use the controls."

In response, TW2 fans say, "Why don't you read the journal? Why don't you look it up? Do you need your hand held all the time?"

It reminds me of the release of Final Fantasy XIII. Yes, I know I'm inviting flames by drawing a comparison between these two games, but bear with me.

I hate Final Fantasy XIII. My biggest gripe with the game is that the story makes little sense. FFXIII fans usually try to refute this by saying, "It TOTALLY makes sense if you read the Datalog." (the Datalog is a collection of plot summaries, backstories, bios, etc; similar to the Codex in Dragon Age)

In previous Final Fantasy games, the story was self-contained and could be appreciated just by playing through the game normally. In Dragon Age, which also had a "Datalog," reading the Codex would give a deeper understanding of the world of Dragon Age, but it was not required to understand the main plot and characterization. With previous Final Fantasy games as precedence and alternative experiences like Dragon Age, I argue that I'm justified in saying...

...I should not have to turn to other source material to enjoy Final Fantasy XIII.

How is this different from people playing The Witcher 2 and getting frustrated because they feel they shouldn't have to "look stuff up" to have a basic enjoyment for the game?

Question B:

So, people were frustrated with the game in ways that perhaps you weren't. Why is this so bothersome?

W2 fans (I am one) are no different from other fans, they defend what they like.

I have no problems seeing that some people get frustrated with W2...but then again I think...how long have they been gamers? What are they used to? Some people complain about dying a few times...when that was mostly all you did in older/retro games. Hows about a bit of a challenge? Does eveything has to be STUPIDLY easy? Some people complain about dying when they could play on an easier setting for gods sake. This is inexcusible and I will forever believe that such people are UTTERLY retarded.

Some people complain that they dont understand the controls, when there is as has been pointed out a manual (and to be honest...they REALLY arent that complicated...this is no Blazblue we're talking about...).

Witcher 2 is one of the best games I've played in ages. My only real complaint is that the last chapter felt rushed and too small and that the ending was nowhere near as good as in the first game.

There is nothing about the Witcher 2 that is hard enough to warrant any whining from gamers...imo. Even stuff like the potion drinking...they fail to realize that the way of consuming potions have to do with the game world and not accessibility. Would it be possible to program drinking potions in combat? Yes. But in the witcher universe Geralt sits down to meditate and prepare before big fights this is when he has to consume toxic chemicals. Just because people are used to drinking health potions in combat does not mean that thats is the only way to do it...how about running away if you get overpowered, meditate, prepare and return to kick ass!!.

Honesly...it seems some gamers are so used to the extreme rails in most games today that its impossible to think of such a basic idea as run to fight another day.

Witcher 2 is a DAMN good game, thats all there is to it. Its main problem is a fucking stupid audience.

-snip-

That wonderful pic of yours made me feel all sorts of things...rage...nostalgia...happiness...sadness...fantastic stuff...and SO true. The honorable exception to the rule being Demons Souls

 

[Aprilgold]

I myself being a retro gamer feel only one ananagly that is fitting.

Have you ever played that hard game that at least decided to give you a decent or good tutorial on core mechanics and let you figure out the rest, super meat boy, great example, starts off slow, then adds danger, more danger, HOLY SHIT BALLS ON FIRE IN SATANS BASKET HOLDER THAT IS SOME DANGER, but the witcher 2 says "FUCK YOU, YOU WANT A TUTORIAL, READ THE MANUAL YOU MAJOR PUSSY CAT!" And storms off without a goodbye, and let me try to say this, if I have to search up how to use something, when I shouldn't HAVE to, its pretty ridiculous. What it lacks, it lacks pacing, starts you off at the end difficulty and doesn't build up on it, story is paced well but gameplay is in the backseat of the car tied up not allowing to do much else but one thing, and story is everything else. Look at any good game from the past, my favorite comparisons are Mario for pacing, and river city ransom for difficulty, neither tell you anything, but you know what to do because its simple and makes sense...... And how is it a "Adult themed world." Because you can get boob and ass shots? I haven't played it, but from everything I hear, its only for pc gamers, which in that case I think you should give it a try, but anyone that isn't a pure breed pc gamer, stay far away, I myself are a mixed breed of console and computer.
Zero Punctuation is a review show, but Yahtzee is a critic, look up critic if you don't know it.